How to determine skill DCs in a way that isn't retarded?

[Daztur]

It seems that in d20 games, skill DCs (that aren't opposed checks) are determined in one of the following ways:
-With a bunch of fiddly little rules that there's no fucking way you're going to use in actual play (quick! what is the difference between making tumble checks over light vs. dense rubble!). It doesn't help that if you actually use these rules instead of making shit up, you'll often get DCs that don't make any sense (hello Diplomacy rules!), so why bother?
-By just making shit up on the fly.
-By making the DC of everything be 15 (yes, one of my DMs did this).
-By using the 4ed DC treadmill.

When you've got a system that's puts as much effort in assigning specific skill bonuses as in d20 games, it's annoying that there isn't a good system for assigning DCs for those skill bonuses to work against, which result in skill systems often becoming Magic Tea Party (i.e. the DM adjudicating skill check results according to "does that number the player is telling me sound pretty big or not"). I've been playing non d20 games for the last few years, so I haven't had to grapple with this but I'm thinking of running some version of a d20 game some time next year and I'm really drawing a blank as to a way to figure out DCs for shit in play that's more rigorous that pull some random number out of my ass.

What do you guys do? I'd like to hear some ways to make the d20 skill system in general not suck. I've got my own ideas for the player side (ie determining skill bonuses), I just need some good solid ideas for methods to create workable skill check DCs on the fly.

Thanks!

[shadzar]

What do you guys do?

when i had to play 3rd it was thrown out for me. i gave them a choice, if they want me, they can do all this stupid over-simulation work, or i would just work with ability score checks.

my actions moved quickly as the DM assigned things properly to the ability checks like icey floor vs difficult terrain nonsense...but handled the range the same a those using the full blown skills/feats system.

it shouldnt be a forced standard in the game, but Monte Cook wanted to nail everything down including the DM...

3rd the DM just made it up based on the factors and rules present, or left them out. 4th DMs do the same.

it all depends on the level of "realism" you want vs the level you want to do the accounting for.

(of course DCs as you speak of didnt exist in 2nd and earlier...so it was just an ability check with modifiers unless using NWPs to add boosts to some.)

[Psychic Robot]

and shadzar derails yet another fucking thread

What do you guys do? I'd like to hear some ways to make the d20 skill system in general not suck. I've got my own ideas for the player side (ie determining skill bonuses), I just need some good solid ideas for methods to create workable skill check DCs on the fly.

main problem in the d20 system is that the RNG is so large that even characters that are supposed to be "good" at something have a chance to fail. personally I set DCs as follows.

easy: DC 10
medium: DC 15
hard: DC 20
difficult: DC 25
extraordinary: DC 30
impossible: DC 35

unfortunately that produces a pretty large range and you're left trying to determine what's the difference between a hard task and a difficult task. what you could do is just use DC 10, 15, and 20 for low levels to make it easier.

[codeGlaze]

You could change the die used for the checks. d10 instead of 20 >_>

Aside from that, just use Psychic Robot's approach, with minor alterations depending on the skill levels you're dealing with.

[Daztur]

main problem in the d20 system is that the RNG is so large that even characters that are supposed to be "good" at something have a chance to fail.

Yes, what I'm thinking of doing to blunt the RNG a bit is to have low DCs but just hitting the DC means that you did it by the skin of your teeth. For example if you pass the DC to jump across a chasm that means that you're clinging to the opposite edge by your fingertips or whatnot, to do it WELL you need to succeed by a margin or 10 or somesuch.

you're left trying to determine what's the difference between a hard task and a difficult task.

Indeed. It seems that on the one hand there's "pull a DC out of your ass" and on the other hand there's "Hey! Here's some rules that distinguish between even and uneven flagstones!" without much in between. I'm looking for something in that middle sweet spot and not really finding it

What I'm sort of looking for is something analogous to Difficult Terrain. A simple hard and fast abstract rule that can be applied to different situations and doesn't have any fiddly little modifiers to worry about.

[...You Lost Me]

There is no such sweet spot. PR gave a nice scaling system, and the idea of factoring in degrees of success is an excellent idea.

Just do that, and make sure your ass is well-lubricated.

[TarkisFlux]

There aren't a lot of places between "look up DC, apply fiddly little modifiers" and "no modifiers, pull it out of your ass", but here's a couple of things to consider.

You could "use DC for level of event (not character level since you've expressed disdain at the numbers treadmill game)", in which case the fiddly little modifiers don't exist because when those conditions would show up they just make for a slightly higher level event. So you say running over uneven floors is something a level 1 guy who invested in the skill should be able to do, while running over dense rubble is more of a level 4 thing to do (or whatever), and then set the DCs 'appropriately'. 'Appropriately' here varies from game to game based on attribute scaling expectations and how you're dealing with gear bonuses to skills and so on. If you want to factor in degrees of success here, have a range of around +/-3 around your 'appropriate' DC for minimal successes.

You could also do a "look up base DC, apply general modifier class", which is basically the same thing as current but with collapsed modifiers to reduce some lookups. Start with +0 for minor inconveniences (they happen all the time and it's bullshit to ratchet up DCs for bullshit little stuff), and then increasing in increments of +2 all the way up to +6 for pretty severe frustrations / blocks. You can do the same +/-3 minimal success range if you want. This setup means you don't have to worry about what an 'appropriate' DC is, you just get saddled with what the designer thought was an appropriate base DC and hope that your attribute / item / whatever else bonuses meet or exceed their expectations.

[hogarth]

personally I set DCs as follows.

easy: DC 10
medium: DC 15
hard: DC 20
difficult: DC 25
extraordinary: DC 30
impossible: DC 35

Specifically:
[*]A DC of 10 means an untrained bozo can do it easily enough when there's no pressure
[*]A DC of 15 means a trained or talented dude can do it easily or an untrained dude has a bit of difficulty
[*]A DC of 20 means the trained dude has a bit of difficulty and the untrained bozo can just barely do it after spending a huge amount of time on it.
[*]A DC of 25 means the trained dude can just barely do it, given enough time.

Anything above 30 (say) is in superpower territory, so DCs start breaking down at that point.

[codeGlaze]

You could leave RNG out of ... most... of the DC factoring, if you just use it for flavoring the challenge.

[*] You must be this DC to ride:
Base your base-DC on the average rank your players have (or the specific player the challenge is for). Anyone that meets the DC rolls on their quality of success. Anyone who does not must roll for success at all... then quality is determined.
Add on +1 or +2 modifiers for difficulty.
Quality:
-> 20: Crit! Woo!
-> 15-19: they do above average.
-> 10-15: Average, nothing fancy pants.
-> 5-10: Relatively poor.
-> 2-5: Poor
-> 1: Fail whale. Do horrible things to them.

Alternatively, you could base 'quality' on how much they beat the DC by... as stated above. >_>

Give fluff information to characters you don't think could succeed, unless they roll extremely well.

[tussock]

DCs in the game are "if you can take 10" it's 15, and "if you can take 20" it's 20 + a small number. If you can't take 10 but should succeed anyway it's DC 5, 10, or 15 if you should fail (at low levels where skills might matter).

Other than opposed checks you win with extra fries at about +10. Opposed checks you win with about +2*level more than that, against typical monsters.


What I do is use DC 15. Always roll, no rerolls, no opposed DCs. Crazy stupid difficulties might be DC 20, but it's usually more interesting to make the players jump through some hoops instead. Don't bother rolling "easier" stuff, 's boring (used to use DC 5 and DC 10 for peasant things, but shouldn't have).

That DC 15 is things like "climb a 100' sheer cliff without dying", or "ignore all movement restrictions for 1 round", or "see invisible", or "command". Like a 1st or 2nd level spell. Edit: and opponents get saves as applicable, DC 15.

[Daztur]

Looks like the consensus is that the specific DC modifiers in 3.*ed are pretty much unsalvageable in actual play. Interesting.

There is no such sweet spot. PR gave a nice scaling system, and the idea of factoring in degrees of success is an excellent idea.

Maybe not, I wish there was though It just makes the pay 3.*ed is played seem pretty asymmetric. The system for determining skill bonuses is so specific and bean-county, but then the system for determining DCs (that every DM I've ever played with, including me, actually used) is "just make some shit up that sounds good."

You could "use DC for level of event (not character level since you've expressed disdain at the numbers treadmill game)", in which case the fiddly little modifiers don't exist because when those conditions would show up they just make for a slightly higher level event. So you say running over uneven floors is something a level 1 guy who invested in the skill should be able to do, while running over dense rubble is more of a level 4 thing to do (or whatever), and then set the DCs 'appropriately'. 'Appropriately' here varies from game to game based on attribute scaling expectations and how you're dealing with gear bonuses to skills and so on. If you want to factor in degrees of success here, have a range of around +/-3 around your 'appropriate' DC for minimal successes.

You could also do a "look up base DC, apply general modifier class", which is basically the same thing as current but with collapsed modifiers to reduce some lookups. Start with +0 for minor inconveniences (they happen all the time and it's bullshit to ratchet up DCs for bullshit little stuff), and then increasing in increments of +2 all the way up to +6 for pretty severe frustrations / blocks. You can do the same +/-3 minimal success range if you want. This setup means you don't have to worry about what an 'appropriate' DC is, you just get saddled with what the designer thought was an appropriate base DC and hope that your attribute / item / whatever else bonuses meet or exceed their expectations.

So basically, if I'm reading you correctly here, what you're saying is think of DCs as "DC that guy of X level should be able to pass" and scale accordingly?

Base your base-DC on the average rank your players have (or the specific player the challenge is for). Anyone that meets the DC rolls on their quality of success. Anyone who does not must roll for success at all... then quality is determined.
Add on +1 or +2 modifiers for difficulty.

Sounds a lot like the 4ed skill treadmill. I don't like tying the DCs too closely to character attributes or it makes it feel that their characters never change as they gain levels.

DCs in the game are "if you can take 10" it's 15, and "if you can take 20" it's 20 + a small number. If you can't take 10 but should succeed anyway it's DC 5, 10, or 15 if you should fail (at low levels where skills might matter).

Other than opposed checks you win with extra fries at about +10. Opposed checks you win with about +2*level more than that, against typical monsters.


What I do is use DC 15. Always roll, no rerolls, no opposed DCs. Crazy stupid difficulties might be DC 20, but it's usually more interesting to make the players jump through some hoops instead. Don't bother rolling "easier" stuff, 's boring (used to use DC 5 and DC 10 for peasant things, but shouldn't have).

That DC 15 is things like "climb a 100' sheer cliff without dying", or "ignore all movement restrictions for 1 round", or "see invisible", or "command". Like a 1st or 2nd level spell. Edit: and opponents get saves as applicable, DC 15.

This sounds more like what I'm looking for, DCs that mean a specific concrete (or at least somewhat concrete thing) things. Maybe writing up a manageable list of specific things that are DC 15, without having to worry about different kinds of rubble and even vs. uneven flagstones.

[Daztur]

Looks like the consensus is that the specific DC modifiers in 3.*ed are pretty much unsalvageable in actual play. Interesting.

There is no such sweet spot. PR gave a nice scaling system, and the idea of factoring in degrees of success is an excellent idea.

Maybe not, I wish there was though It just makes the pay 3.*ed is played seem pretty asymmetric. The system for determining skill bonuses is so specific and bean-county, but then the system for determining DCs (that every DM I've ever played with, including me, actually used) is "just make some shit up that sounds good."

You could "use DC for level of event (not character level since you've expressed disdain at the numbers treadmill game)", in which case the fiddly little modifiers don't exist because when those conditions would show up they just make for a slightly higher level event. So you say running over uneven floors is something a level 1 guy who invested in the skill should be able to do, while running over dense rubble is more of a level 4 thing to do (or whatever), and then set the DCs 'appropriately'. 'Appropriately' here varies from game to game based on attribute scaling expectations and how you're dealing with gear bonuses to skills and so on. If you want to factor in degrees of success here, have a range of around +/-3 around your 'appropriate' DC for minimal successes.

You could also do a "look up base DC, apply general modifier class", which is basically the same thing as current but with collapsed modifiers to reduce some lookups. Start with +0 for minor inconveniences (they happen all the time and it's bullshit to ratchet up DCs for bullshit little stuff), and then increasing in increments of +2 all the way up to +6 for pretty severe frustrations / blocks. You can do the same +/-3 minimal success range if you want. This setup means you don't have to worry about what an 'appropriate' DC is, you just get saddled with what the designer thought was an appropriate base DC and hope that your attribute / item / whatever else bonuses meet or exceed their expectations.

So basically, if I'm reading you correctly here, what you're saying is think of DCs as "DC that guy of X level should be able to pass" and scale accordingly?

Base your base-DC on the average rank your players have (or the specific player the challenge is for). Anyone that meets the DC rolls on their quality of success. Anyone who does not must roll for success at all... then quality is determined.
Add on +1 or +2 modifiers for difficulty.

Sounds a lot like the 4ed skill treadmill. I don't like tying the DCs too closely to character attributes or it makes it feel that their characters never change as they gain levels.

DCs in the game are "if you can take 10" it's 15, and "if you can take 20" it's 20 + a small number. If you can't take 10 but should succeed anyway it's DC 5, 10, or 15 if you should fail (at low levels where skills might matter).

Other than opposed checks you win with extra fries at about +10. Opposed checks you win with about +2*level more than that, against typical monsters.


What I do is use DC 15. Always roll, no rerolls, no opposed DCs. Crazy stupid difficulties might be DC 20, but it's usually more interesting to make the players jump through some hoops instead. Don't bother rolling "easier" stuff, 's boring (used to use DC 5 and DC 10 for peasant things, but shouldn't have).

That DC 15 is things like "climb a 100' sheer cliff without dying", or "ignore all movement restrictions for 1 round", or "see invisible", or "command". Like a 1st or 2nd level spell. Edit: and opponents get saves as applicable, DC 15.

This sounds more like what I'm looking for, DCs that mean a specific concrete (or at least somewhat concrete thing) things. Maybe writing up a manageable list of specific things that are DC 15, without having to worry about different kinds of rubble and even vs. uneven flagstones.