ideas that need to go away

[RadiantPhoenix]

not to mention the wizard would be dead man walking the first time something made from these walls was dispelled.

Wall of Iron is instantaneous.

[CapnTthePirateG]

this one i dont even understand...

Example: You can cast wall of iron and get more iron than the components you consumed casting it. You can turn around and sell this iron to someone who would like to buy iron. You thus turn spell slots into wealth by performing a day's labor (however long it takes to cast the spell until you run out). You go to sleep that night and repeat the process the next morning.

If you can exchange gold for anything an adventurer might find useful, this is potentially problematic, except that it isn't because odds are you would make more money adventuring anyway (and if you don't get more treasure adventuring than you do by staying in town and blacksmithing or conjuring iron, your DM is doing something wrong assuming that amassing treasure is part of the goal of the game). You can also make the assumption that it breaks down economically (eventually you saturate the market with iron, so the price deflates--or maybe some other wizard has already beaten you to the punch and has cornered the iron market, but that just turns into an arms race where you teleport across the world or the planes to find new customers).

The argument is that with an arbitrary amount of time anything permanent produced by adventurers can be produced in quantities that approach infinity (including gold or things that can be exchanged for gold), which is somehow bad for gameplay and or world cohesion. This argument is largely retarded.

ah, yeah cause that wouldbt happen as a wizard would get bored fast doing that... they crave knowledge and power over money and dont view money AS power. especially at 9th level it isnt worth it.

So you know every wizard in every game of D&D ever? Quite an impressive claim.

What's special about the illusionist in my game?

[shadzar]

not to mention the wizard would be dead man walking the first time something made from these walls was dispelled.

Wall of Iron is instantaneous.

in the context of selling the iron to earn money, and make more wall of iron etc....time to make it matters not. what is important is how long it lasts.

The wall is permanent, unless successfully dispelled, but it is subject to all forces a normal iron wall is subject to--rust, perforation, etc.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

[CapnTthePirateG]

not to mention the wizard would be dead man walking the first time something made from these walls was dispelled.

Wall of Iron is instantaneous.

in the context of selling the iron to earn money, and make more wall of iron etc....time to make it matters not. what is important is how long it lasts.

The wall is permanent, unless successfully dispelled, but it is subject to all forces a normal iron wall is subject to--rust, perforation, etc.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm

Behold!

Duration: Instantaneous

Instantaneous

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

Which is specifically contrasted against the permanent duration:

Permanent

The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

So there's that.

[shadzar]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm

Behold!

Duration: Instantaneous

Instantaneous

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

Which is specifically contrasted against the permanent duration:

Permanent

The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

So there's that.

so 3.x wall of iron lasts for a split second, then the iron is gone? wow, what a useless spell for a 9th level caster.

[RadiantPhoenix]

so 3.x wall of iron lasts for a split second, then the iron is gone? wow, what a useless spell for a 9th level caster.

No. The spell lasts for a split second, and leaves behind nonmagical iron.

[shadzar]

so 3.x wall of iron lasts for a split second, then the iron is gone? wow, what a useless spell for a 9th level caster.

No. The spell lasts for a split second, and leaves behind nonmagical iron.

ok so?

[RadiantPhoenix]

so 3.x wall of iron lasts for a split second, then the iron is gone? wow, what a useless spell for a 9th level caster.

ok so?

The iron isn't gone.

[shadzar]

so 3.x wall of iron lasts for a split second, then the iron is gone? wow, what a useless spell for a 9th level caster.

ok so?

The iron isn't gone.

ok im lost from where this started....

[Ice9]

Wall of Iron is not something that can be dispelled in 3E D&D - which is what everybody but you is talking about.

You don't want to play it? Fine, no problem. But don't answer somebody's post about a 3E situation with an argument based on a different edition. That's like if I answered it with "In HERO, you don't need to make money with Wall of Iron because the Wealth perk costs less points".

[shadzar]

Wall of Iron is not something that can be dispelled in 3E D&D - which is what everybody but you is talking about.

not my fault someone didnt just say.. wall of iron cannot be dispelled in 3.x.

like i said, that shit shouldnt work..and wouldnt had they not left out the whole dispelling it in lieu of giving it a DC to "destroy" it. because dispel means the iron goes away, while "destroy" just means it isnt a wall and the initial complaint still exists as the iron does.

big difference in context, when you leave out the context that you finally provided.

[Psychic Robot]

shadzar stop talking about 3e. you know nothing about it.

[koz]

Shadzar, I'm convinced that you delusionally see 2E, and its particular brand of thinking, in everything. Go see a mental health specialist - it worked wonders for me.

[Shadow Balls]

Wall of Iron is not something that can be dispelled in 3E D&D - which is what everybody but you is talking about.

not my fault someone didnt just say.. wall of iron cannot be dispelled in 3.x.

[Whipstitch]

FFS, I seriously have a harry potter like scar on my forehead from an unfortunate cranial intrusion and I can still figure this shit out.

[Prak]

Wall of Iron is not something that can be dispelled in 3E D&D - which is what everybody but you is talking about.

not my fault someone didnt just say.. wall of iron cannot be dispelled in 3.x.

like i said, that shit shouldnt work..and wouldnt had they not left out the whole dispelling it in lieu of giving it a DC to "destroy" it. because dispel means the iron goes away, while "destroy" just means it isnt a wall and the initial complaint still exists as the iron does.

big difference in context, when you leave out the context that you finally provided.

Helpful tip: Here, talking about 3.X is the default. You may find yourself ignored if you approach everything assuming one is talking about D&D as a whole, or that 2e is even relevant. Here's a good way to look at it, if it's too different from your preferred edition for you to play, it's probably too different for things from your preferred edition to matter.

[shadzar]

the problem is all the run around with 3rd definitions of terms, AFTER i gave a definition that said dispelled. one could can avoided that run around with instantaneous, etc. and jsut said the spell cannot be dispelled.

that is the problem with many people in not knowing older edition.

Casting Time: Instant, means it happens or comes into being now...
Duration Permanent, means it last without having to "sustain" the spell in some way

neither of the third definitions explicitly say "cannot be dispelled". so why would one think something brought in to being with magic cannot be dispelled, since it was CREATED via magic?

quite possibly an oversight in 3rd edition.

[Prak]

No, everyone just understood that, in 3rd edition, Wall of Iron creates a non-magical wall of iron, and it cannot be dispelled, just like the damage caused by a ball of fire cannot.

[koz]

No, everyone but Shad (as he is too delusional to actually read anything connected to 3E without getting his 2E jiggy on) just understood that, in 3rd edition, Wall of Iron creates a non-magical wall of iron, and it cannot be dispelled, just like the damage caused by a ball of fire cannot. Shadzar's delusions are getting the better of him again.

Fixed that for ya, Prak.

[shadzar]

idea that needs to go away: just because someone has worked in a company designing games, they are competent to design games.

apparently Monte's work with ICE, didnt provide him enough to understand D&D so mistakes like the above were made after having played D&D for "years" prior to designing for it. removal of the ability to dispel a magically created wall of iron so that a wizard no longer NEEDS to adventure at a certain level and becomes a steel worker instead is more than a small oversight, but incompetence in redesign.

so dont let people redesign stuff that dont understand how it works to begin with, hammers, screwdrivers, cars, D&D....

[fbmf]

idea that needs to go away: just because someone has worked in a company designing games, they are competent to design games.

apparently Monte's work with ICE, didnt provide him enough to understand D&D so mistakes like the above were made after having played D&D for "years" prior to designing for it. removal of the ability to dispel a magically created wall of iron so that a wizard no longer NEEDS to adventure at a certain level and becomes a steel worker instead is more than a small oversight, but incompetence in redesign.

so dont let people redesign stuff that dont understand how it works to begin with, hammers, screwdrivers, cars, D&D....

On the previous page we dealt with why Wizards becoming metalworkers will in fact not bring the game crashing down.

Game On,
fbmf

[OgreBattle]

Ideas that need to go away:

Rolling to hit.

It's not fun to miss. It really sucks to miss with your limited use super attack.
A large part of the game is thus stacking bonuses to make sure you hit more often.
A run of bad luck can also leave you feeling useless in a 3-6 round fight.

The fact that you CAN miss does also add to the joy of hitting, yeah, but... take a look at checkers, eating an enemy piece isn't any less exciting because it's 100% guaranteed.

Or look at M:tG. When you have the resources to take an action, it goes off 100%, it's then in your hands of your opponent to try to foil you.

I figure the problem is it's simply a Wasted Action, with no Results. say in the checkers example you still maneuver into positions for offense or defense. Even if you make a 'bad' move it's still a move you have 100% control over.

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS
-you hit automatically, your target then rolls to evade, if they can. This seems like the same result, but since you're not the one rolling it's less a feeling of "god damn I suck" but "god damn this monster's tough!", since it's the monster rolling the die to avoid your hit.

-roll more dice, number of hits is degree of success. This decreases the chances of missing, and even a small success doesn't feel like a waste.

-resource pool (like M:tG), it's now about tactical use of resources and actions for best effect.

[shadzar]

Ideas that need to go away:

Rolling to hit.

It's not fun to miss.

this is NOT a universally held opinion.

[Seerow]

Ideas that need to go away:

Rolling to hit.

It's not fun to miss.

this is NOT a universally held opinion.

Very few things are.

[echoVanguard]

-you hit automatically, your target then rolls to evade, if they can. This seems like the same result, but since you're not the one rolling it's less a feeling of "god damn I suck" but "god damn this monster's tough!", since it's the monster rolling the die to avoid your hit.

Our system does something like this, although it is still possible to miss (but highly unlikely past level 4 or so - generally only on a natural 1).

echo