[Tome] Wish Factories

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:53 am

Majority of pony is blue, but yes. Of course.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:39 am

Kaelik wrote: You are still being an idiot. Y is not in all ways less useful than X. In many ways it is better or just as good as X. And unless you tell the genie exactly why you want it, he can't just fucking know which things you are going to X for. Now, you could make a probability argument, about how the likelihood of someone wanting X vs Y, but you'd be wrong, because there are tons of swords that are objectively better than a minor magic sword that you would want more often, so if you wish for a magic sword, and the genie gives you a minor magic sword, the genie is actually not giving you what you most probably want.

What the fuck are you babbling about? No one has suggested that the genie is going to pull the perfect wish out of their ass despite incomplete information. What I am saying is that they will not fill that incomplete information in stupid, counter-productive ways. Go back to your pony example: this isn't about whether or not you're getting a blue pony, it's about whether or not you're getting a pony with legs. You didn't say you wanted a pony with legs, so how is the genie supposed to know? Oh yeah, because who the fuck wants a pony without legs? When does that come up? Is that a common wish? Are ponies in genie land legless?

A genie cannot reasonably assume you want a fiery sword without extra information. But it can reasonably assume you don't want the seppuku-inducing rubber katana of self-loathing. If it gives you that one, it's either an idiot or an asshole. And we rule out idiot because genies aren't idiots, and we rule out asshole because we're going to give it a helpful attitude before we get our wishes.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:58 pm

Once again, 4 is more than 2. It's not wishing up cows one at a time and expending mana, it's wishing up a number of cows, how many? More than 2. 4 is more than 2.

These ideas that 3 is the only number that is really more than 2, and that sword that is not on fire is the only type of magic sword, are just as stupid as the tongue in cheek all ponies are blue. There are lots of different magic swords, all of them are actually magic swords.

violence in the media · Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:04 pm

Kaelik, is it your contention that Genies (and other wish-granters) are literalist in their interpretations BUT that any character summoning one of them is intelligent enough to know this and is presumed to word wishes properly in order to get what the player actually wants? Functionally, this seems no different than just presuming that a helpful (or at least non-antagonistic) Genie has a good idea of what you want and acts accordingly.

If so, why is that an important distinction to make or preserve?

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:16 pm

I'm not arguing that 4 isn't more than two, or that a flaming sword isn't magic. I AM arguing that a literal genie will give you as close to exactly what you asked for, matching as well as it can the words that came out of your mouth. You know, they'll grant your wish literally.

So, you didn't ask for more than three cows, so it gives you three cows. You didn't ask for a magical flaming sword, so it gives you a +X sword.

P.S. Genies just became 20% cooler.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:59 pm

So, if the amount of cows the adventurer wants is a complex algebra problem using a number of variables in order to determine stress tolerance of a building (maybe the adventurer moonlights as an architect), how would you have a literal genie react? Are literal genies inherently good at math?

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:13 pm

quotes get through ignore wrote:How is the fucking genie supposed to know what fucking color you want the pony to be if you don't tell him?

Maybe because he has some strange and poorly defined magic ability to do exactly that. "Genie, I sure wish you really and truly understood what I'm asking for with my other two wishes."

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:51 pm

violence in the media wrote:If so, why is that an important distinction to make or preserve?

Why is it an important distinction what the actual 3.5 RAW rules actually do when I'm never going to use them? It's not that it's important, it' just a distinction to argue about on the internet.

darkmaster wrote:I AM arguing that a literal genie will give you as close to exactly what you asked for, matching as well as it can the words that came out of your mouth. You know, they'll grant your wish literally.

So, you didn't ask for more than three cows, so it gives you three cows. You didn't ask for a magical flaming sword, so it gives you a +X sword.

Once again, what in the flying fuck is your logical basis for saying that 3 is somehow closer to what you asked for than 4? They are both equally as close to what you asked for, because they are both 100% identical with what you asked for. Neither one is closer.

You didn't ask for less than 5 cows, so it gives you five cows. You didn't ask for a sword that is not flaming, so it gives you a flaming sword.

You keep creating some ranking in your head that makes no sense, and saying X is closer.

So again, what color is the pony?

Saxony · Post by **Saxony** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:09 pm

Avoraciopoctules wrote:So, if the amount of cows the adventurer wants is a complex algebra problem using a number of variables in order to determine stress tolerance of a building (maybe the adventurer moonlights as an architect), how would you have a literal genie react? Are literal genies inherently good at math?

This thread is over.

By the way, good luck in Oakland.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:20 pm

Saxony wrote:By the way, good luck in Oakland.

Thanks. I wonder if I'll see any Occupiers at my volunteer library shift today? There was at least one big rally in front of the Main Branch on the day the Port of Oakland got shut down, but I wasn't there.

On a vaguely genie-related note, I really liked the adventure in Baldur's Gate 2 where you cast Limited Wish, then asked the genie for an adventure. The idea of a PC calling up a bunch of genies solely to task them with finding interesting things for the party to do might turn out pretty interestingly with Literal Genie rules applied. Say you take 3 literal genies, wish for each one of them to come up with an entertaining, rewarding, and unusual adventure, then pitch them to you. Just what kind of results might you get when these are characters with such a tenuous grasp on social interaction that they might give you a cursed spear of backbiting when asked plainly for a magical weapon, then have honest difficulty understanding why that was not okay?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:48 pm

All this talk of genies gives me the idea of a party that literally employs efreet. No binding, except for the initial calling, just "Want a job? It pays (x)."

Hell, if you have a mixed group of Efreet, Djinn and Jann, you could very easily provide for your own small city you created for your followers-- Djinn can create food for 60 people/20 horses a day each, Jann 21 people/7 horses. Djinn can create 40 gallons of wine and 20 cubic feet of vegetation each day, neither of which goes bad any faster than mundane wine or vegetation. If you have, 5 Djinn and 20 Jann, you can provide food for something like 720 people each day, at only the cost of you genie employees, along with 100 cubic feet of vegetation (hell, grain is vegetation) and 200 gallons of wine. Your people have basically nothing to do, as far as subsistence goes, and can focus on crafting, research, etc.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:27 pm

It's really quite simple, because thee is simultaneously larger than, and the closest whole number to, two. A literal Genie will give you as close to what you asked for as you worded your wish as possible. So when you ask for a magic sword, you'll get the barest definition of a magic sword. And when you ask for more than two cows, you will get the barest definition of more than two cows. No more, no less.

And as for your stupid pony question about some irrelevant pony feature no one cares about. You will get whatever color pony comes to mind then the efreet in question thinks of ponies.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:08 am

Kaelik's point, darkmaster, is that any scheme you concoct for measuring closeness to a wish is pretty much arbitrary. He's right about that. A wish is a boolean statement; it is either fulfilled or it is not fulfilled. Now you've got the idea that there is some minimum fulfilling value which nothing less than will fulfill and anything more than will also fulfill. But to be able to do that assumes that you can do a comparison operator on wish results, and that's very, very, very ill-defined in almost all cases.

You confused yourself by using numbers; comparing numbers is easy, and it's pretty well understood and defined. But because we keep talking about ponies, how about this: what is the minimum fulfilling value for the wish, "I want one pony." To be able to find the minimum result which fulfills that wish, you have to be able to be define a comparison between two ponies. Are we going by volume? Mass? Value? Speed? Limbs? Color's hex value? Remaining lifespan?

There's also the problem that "literal" doesn't mean "barest minimum." A genie that fulfills wishes literally is bound by only one constraint: that the statements in the wish all become true, or it rejects the wish. Not that it does the minimum thing possible to fulfill those wishes. Unfortunately, all wishes are finite in length, so there are infinitely many facts they fail to specify that genies make up on their own. This is why a genie can give you a magic sword by teleporting you to the bottom of the ocean where a magic sword is waiting. You failed to specify, "and I don't want to be teleported to the bottom of the ocean." But there are a lot of things you failed to specify, so literally satisfying wishes gets really, really weird.

Examples: "I want a magic sword."

Non-literal Genie:
"Here is a magic sword. Whatever."

Literal genie:
"Here is a magic sword."

Literal genie with a bad methodology:
"There is one at the bottom of the ocean. I will teleport you there."

Literal genie with bad results:
"Here is a magic sword sized for fairies."

Literal genie who fills in unspecified, unrelated details at his whim:
"Here is a magic sword. Also the planet explodes. You didn't say you didn't want the planet to explode, and I felt like it."

Literal genie with a fatal methodology:
"Here is a magic sword. I will teleport it to the sun, and then teleport you there."

Literal genie with fatal results:
"Here is a magic sword. You are now impaled on it."

Literal genie with a lot of creativity and freetime:
A giant rube goldberg machine that drops a sword into your hand, using as components of its chain reaction the boiling of the oceans, destruction of the planet, and nova-ing of the sun.

There is pretty much no way to get predictable results out of a "literal genie" when "literal" means "can fill in unspecified details of the wish however you want." This is why Kaelik's literal genies make no sense. Who the fuck knows what will happen? They can do nearly anything.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:42 am

Y'all need to give your genies some motivation. Character. Like an NPC and shit.

Lawful Evil? So they want to own you. The point of Genies is they can give you three wishes, but can't ever give themselves wishes. So they want you to wish for the things they want. So they want to fuck you over with wish #1 in a way that makes you their bitch, so that latter wishes will do the genie's will.

Friendly genies? Awesome, they can just tell you what they want up front, give you the third one once the first two are dealt with. You want to help the genies take over the world and enslave all mortal beings, don't you? Friends helping friends?

Demons? They're composed of Evil, and they reproduce by making common mortals do Evil things, by tricking them, scaring them, spreading destruction and Chaos. You are going to help them with that, aren't you, good friend? Hmm?

Angels? Lawful Good is such fun. Scratch that, LG says fun is wasted time you should be serving the needy with. You've sinned, a lot, but they know some things you could do to fix that. Make the world a better place, save your soul, but it will cost you everything you have, and perhaps everyone you love. Doesn't that sound ideal, friend? The ultimate sacrifice? Think how much better off everyone else will be! Glory!

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:07 am

I don't want to be a smartarse, but wishes are not strictly Boolean.

They have a clause for partial fulfullment that falls squarely into "mother may I" territory.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:16 am

@ DSM: Well actually, most of those were jackass genies, but your point remains.

@Tuss: The point of the wish factory is that you could reasonably kill the creature you've summoned so they won't try to own you because you'll murder them. And point is of making them friendly is that a friendly NPC wants to help you. Though I guess you might want help them too, I guess.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:25 am

tussock wrote:Y'all need to give your genies some motivation. Character. Like an NPC and shit.

Lawful Evil? So they want to own you. The point of Genies is they can give you three wishes, but can't ever give themselves wishes. So they want you to wish for the things they want. So they want to fuck you over with wish #1 in a way that makes you their bitch, so that latter wishes will do the genie's will.

Friendly genies? Awesome, they can just tell you what they want up front, give you the third one once the first two are dealt with. You want to help the genies take over the world and enslave all mortal beings, don't you? Friends helping friends?

Demons? They're composed of Evil, and they reproduce by making common mortals do Evil things, by tricking them, scaring them, spreading destruction and Chaos. You are going to help them with that, aren't you, good friend? Hmm?

Angels? Lawful Good is such fun. Scratch that, LG says fun is wasted time you should be serving the needy with. You've sinned, a lot, but they know some things you could do to fix that. Make the world a better place, save your soul, but it will cost you everything you have, and perhaps everyone you love. Doesn't that sound ideal, friend? The ultimate sacrifice? Think how much better off everyone else will be! Glory!

Slight problem with this belief.

Chiefly that a Efreeti is CR 8; and the PC in question is CR 11.

If the PC has a sidekick, the PC's cohort's, is still 1 CR above the Efreeti, and can more than 50/50 it in a fight.

The PC themselves can curbstomp the Efreeti.

Please remember to do your math in the future.

My own group's very easy solution is that Efreeti willingly look out to be summoned by mortals. In order to take advantage of their wishes; and ask that 1 of the wishes by for one of the following:

-A gem, worth 25,000 gold
-25,000 gold pieces
or
-25,000 gp in Brass.

The reasoning being that The City of Brass is built with Wish derived resources, and Efreeti are always trying to earn more "CoB Donation Credits" with the Efreeti Sultanate, and thus earn more prestige for themsleves, and which ever faction they choose to put their Donation Credits behind.

A minor 'tax' on nearly infinite wishes is merely a flavouring, but also en explanation for an economy, and the how and why of the City of Brass' construction.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:29 am

CR 8? Wish! You ask for the wish, the Efreeti makes the wish. It's not your spell-like ability, it's his. He can only grant it for you, but he's smart enough to figure out how to Lawful Evil his way around that sort of contract. Can't mess someone up with their own wish? Not trying hard enough.

And yes, I figure Diplomacy for making friends makes friends (without changing anyone's alignment or basic personality). Diplomacy for making a deal makes a deal. If you're not giving back, that's a Bluff, or Intimidate if you don't care that they know it. All those things may or may not be useful at various times. Dominate Monster even better.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:56 pm

tussock wrote:CR 8? Wish! You ask for the wish, the Efreeti makes the wish. It's not your spell-like ability, it's his. He can only grant it for you, but he's smart enough to figure out how to Lawful Evil his way around that sort of contract. Can't mess someone up with their own wish? Not trying hard enough.

So, here's how that plays out. McSpells wishes for a magic sword. The Efreet teleports him to the bottom of the ocean where it's currently located. The Efreet, who is basically channeling Jafar here, then offers to teleport him back out as his second wish. We will assume that McSpells is not ready to save himself from this predicament with his prepared spells that day, and thus agrees. Back at McSpells Tower, the Efreet is killed before he can even start to make his demands and McSpells summons up another one, who will hopefully have an INT higher than 7 this time.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:44 pm

Yes, as I said to someone else to whom I was explaining this stupidity:
Efreet: "Ha, why the fuck should I help you!?"
Caster who Summoned: "Cone of cold. Do I need.. nah, one did just fine. Next Efreet!"

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:25 pm

Oh right, your just going to kill the efreets because you have them helpless and at your mercy. Of course. I can't see any possible downsides to that.

Monster Manual wrote:Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature and ability to beguile and mislead... The Efreet are ruled by a grand Sultan who makes his home in the city of brass. He is advised by a variety of beys, amirs and maliks concerning actions on the plane and by six great pashas who deal with efreet business on the Material Plane.

Oh, so there's a whole society of revenge hungry evil beings who hate being forced to serve who will want to come kick your ass as soon as you start ganking their members? Well, so what, they're on some other plane, fuck 'em, right?

Monster Manual wrote:Special qualities: Plane Shift

Oh. Well, you're level 11, you can deal with a few angry efreet.

Manual of the Planes wrote:the City of Brass also has a number of freestanding gates leading to the Nine Hells of Baator. Devils are common within the walls of the City of Brass, either on missions for their infernal masters or bringing tribute and gifts to the grand sultan's court.

I wonder if wish-granting genies could have anything to offer demons in return for protecting them from asshole wizards?

So yeah, binding Efreet and killing them is probably not the best option unless you like having Pit Fiend hit squads Plane Shifted into your neighbourhood on a regular basis. This also means that any Efreet you summon will know about this extra-planar protection deal, and will be pretty hard to cow with threats of violence (which may also get back to the Sultan). I assume a race which hates being forced to serve would also take a dim view of mindrape, so Dominate et. al. would probably bring the Kytons down just as quickly. Finally, as previously mentioned there is no earthly reason that Efreets would value wishable goods, so the only payment that would really interest them is Wish Economy stuff.

So if bribing with gold and threatening are out, that leaves Diplomacheese as the one easy way to get wishes out of Efreet, which only works because the diplomacy rules are simplistic and borked.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:46 pm

Why are fiends working with Efreet to help back up their protection racket? The only thing that the genies have to offer is wishes, and it's already been established that their wishes are all of the 'fvck you' variety from any regular negotiation, which was the reason why wizards have to be jerks to begin with.

Just let wizards get their fvcking wishes without all this Gygaxian junk. Wish for something the genie wants with one of your three wishes as part of the deal. Efreet will want wishable goods because unless they eat Wish-Economy grapes and live inside souls, they'll want gold-economy items at a non-zero rate; which they can get with wishes, but only if they have other people wish for them, and wizards seem like an easy resource to use for this need.

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:05 pm

virgil wrote:Just let wizards get their fvcking wishes without all this Gygaxian junk.

We're talking about someone going for a wish factory here. This isn't as much Gygaxian DMing as the player basically trying to ruin the game and be an asshole. I don't think anyone is advocating 'twist all wishes, all the time.'

Wish for something the genie wants with one of your three wishes as part of the deal. Efreet will want wishable goods because unless they eat Wish-Economy grapes and live inside souls, they'll want gold-economy items at a non-zero rate; which they can get with wishes, but only if they have other people wish for them, and wizards seem like an easy resource to use for this need.

You know what would be even better? Level 1 commoner slaves. Efreet gets all the wishes for stuff he wants, and the slave gets to live, possible in relative opulence.

Which leads me to another random thought; As soon as a wizard starts up his wish factory, the Efreets have their level 1 slaves start dropping the wishes against them in retaliation. I can't even begin to think how much bad wrong stuff would go down on that 11th level wizard that he could not possible hope to deal with.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:39 pm

Who gives a crap about wish factories, anyway. The wizard can have as many magic swords as he wants, big deal. He can only swing one at a time, two at the most. I suppose you could wish for a third arm so that you can swing three magic swords at once, but that really doesn't work under Tome rules.

You can't even wish for a pony using Tome rules, because a pony is a creature, not a magic item or mundane wealth. You'd have to burn two wishes to find a willing pony and teleport it to you.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:02 pm

Wasn't someone talking about straight up employing efreeti in this thread? Man, wonder what happened to that guy...