t2.0 Armour project substep: Ranking types of DR

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t2.0 Armour project substep: Ranking types of DR

Post by Josh_Kablack »

As I have said before, part of the issue with the Tome Armors is that abilities were handed out willy-nilly with little thought to how they actually compared to each other and to the numeric bonuses offered by the armor.

In an effort to move forward on a potential revision, I'd like to discuss the relative value of the various types of Damage Reduction offered by Tome Armors and various other 3.5 effects.


The weakest types of DR:
  • "Negate X damage for any non-lethal attack"
  • "Negate X damage from any critical hit or sneak attack"
Aside from the absurdly rare case of an unarmed opponent with no natural weapons and no ability to use improvised weapons somehow being a meaningful threat, every opponent you see in D&D has the capacity to deal lethal damage and will usually default to it. Furthermore, giving out DR against non-lethal damage is a disincentive for enemies to who might want to deal non-lethal to choose to do so, and the existence of this ability may actually increase PC mortality. All in all DR x/lethal should not even exist, and it being stamped on so many Tome armors is reason enough to revise them all.

The second one sounds good, as crits and sneak attacks are big-damage PC killers, but when you rephrase it as "DR X / non-critical hits that aren't part of a sneak attack" it becomes apparent that against most monsters it only triggers 5%-10% of the time, and while PCs have better access to higher crit ranges, it's still way less than half of the time for damn near everyone. You might think that Sneak Attack is more common, but it shows up in all of 3 critters in the Monster Manual, and all of like 6 out of the 100+ entries in the MM 3, so it's also under 10% of the time. I know the original treasure tables assumed Fortification was a big deal, but it's just not. Furthermore as crits are high-randomness attacks with a chance of PC kill, some MCs are already going to be fudging the worst of them to allow the narrative to continue - meaning that in games run by such MCs this is an ability everyone gets a version of for free. All in all this is a flavor ability, not a real ability, it can be handed out like candy as freely as profanity is used here on TGD without notably changing anyfuckingthing we give a damn shit about.

Slightly Better types
  • DR X / Piercing
  • DR X / Bludgeoning
  • DR X / Slashing[/b]
This tier is types that can matter against some opponents - there are enemies who only use a single type of weapon and/or are markedly better with a single type of weapon and there are animal and monster enemies who only have access to one or two of these type. The way DR X/slashing applies against all ranged weapons can be really meaningful.

However the fact a fair number of weapons are multityped, that most weapon-using enemies have both ranged and melee options, that most non-weapon using monsters have multiple natural weapon attacks and especially the way that Bite gets to be all three at once, means that most opposition is going to have an option (even if it isn't their best attack) to get through any of these.

All in all these can reduce the effectiveness of enemy attacks or force enemies to alter tactics often enough to matter and are therefore real abilities worth something, although not a great deal

The Good Types
  • DR X / Alignment
  • DR X/ Critical Hits
  • DR X / Magic
These are all likely to come into play the majority of the time, but can by bypassed in ways that can and will happen without the MC specifically deploying enemies to counter them.

DR X / alignment is useful whenever you are not fighting critters with the appropriate alignment subtype, nor against enemies with the ability to cast Align Weapon or to call on such critters. That means that it's going to be useful in most encounters, but it's occasionally going to be useless due to random chance on the encounter tables.

DR X / Critical hits comes into play the vast majority of the time against nearly everyone, however every single opponent has the ability to deal critical hits. So this is going to be useful most of the time, but occasionally a random lucky blow from an enemy will get through and ignore it.

DR X / Magic is actually pretty tricky to evaluate. It matters against all monsters who neither use weapons nor have DR X / Magic themselves - which is a pretty broad swath of opposition. However within the assumptions of both Core and Tome, it goes obsolete vs classed opposition past a certain level. Somewhere between 1st and 6th level enemy swordsmen will have magic swords, and/or access to magic weapon and similar spells. So this is a huge deal at low levels, freakishly strong if it can be had at level 1, but becomes progressively less and less of a deal as levels increase, becoming just slightly more than a flavor ability past level 9.

All in all, these are major abilities that will come into play in most fights and should not be handed out lightly.

The Really Good Types
  • DR X / Special Material
  • DR X / combination with 'and' (such as the Night Hag's Cold Iron and Magic)
  • DR X / Epic
  • DR X/ -
The counters to these are so rare that the only enemies who can bypass them are going to be specifically constructed by the MC to do so. They can be countered only by classed opposition with specific equipment or by opposition with access to swiss-army-knife type spells like fabricate. And honestly, most opposition with access to stuff like fabricate is getting through your DR be creating vast quantities of Alchemist's fire or abusing the dropped object rules to deal thousands of points of damage instead of magicking up cold iron swords for their henchmen.

Seriously, in Tome these are going to be bypassed more often by class abilities and feats that let enemies ignore DR than they are going to be bypassed by special materials or appropriate weapons.

Lemme start with material DR: In the entire Monster Manual: the Hound Archon Hero wields a cold iron greatsword, the example half-celestial paladin and harpy archer each have 10 cold iron and 10 silvered arrows, the githyanki have their silver swords and the Titan has an Adamantine warhammer - and that's an exhaustive list. Unlike DR X / magic, critters with these as their own DR do not get to overcome it with their own natural weapons, nor are there low level spells like magic weapon or align weapon which allow weapons to ignore it temporarily, nor can you easily summon or gate in fiends or celestials with the right alignment types to overcome it. So aside from things the MC slaps together themselves, there are fewer than 3 enemies who these do not matter against.

Now DR X/ Epic is a little odder. Here critters with this form of DR also get through it, so in Core, that's vulnerable to the Tarrasque, the Titan as well as artifacts, and +4 or better weapons with the appropriate type of ___ Bane ability. However in Tome, scaling weapon bonuses are the norm, so if you're going with the text in the current Book Fragment of Gears in your Tome game, then any Magic weapon in the hands of a 16th+ level character just cuts through this. If instead you're limiting scaling to a +5 max to match the RoW Samurai ancestral weapon ability and other things written prior to the BoG text, you're back to core. So it's possible that this goes obsolete just like DR X / Magic, albeit at a higher level, but it's also possible it doesn't - and that depends on group houserules. However, games at or above 16th level are so rare in practice that I'm comfortable assuming that this will not be obsolete in any game which I am personally involved in, and is therefore effectively an always meaningful ability. If you are involved in such a game yourself, feel free to refigure this as an ability which has gone obsolete like X/ magic DR does.


All in all, it should be assumed that these forms of DR are always active when given out as PC abilities.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

DR X/Critical Hits is way the fuck better than DR X/(Adamntium or Silver or Cold Iron)
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

DR X/critical hits and DR X/non- critical hits are two totally different things that are sometimes confused.
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Post by Kaelik »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:DR X/critical hits and DR X/non- critical hits are two totally different things that are sometimes confused.
But he has DR X/ Non criticals in his example in the proper place (complete shit) but he then has DR X/Critical Hits as good, but not as good as DR X/Silver.

Which is false, it's just better.
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Post by Kaelik »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:DR X/critical hits and DR X/non- critical hits are two totally different things that are sometimes confused.
But he has DR X/ Non criticals in his example in the proper place (complete shit) but he then has DR X/Critical Hits as good, but not as good as DR X/Silver.

Which is false, it's just better.
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Post by Seerow »

DRX/non-criticals I think is actually a decent idea, it just needs to be at higher values than other DRs. I mean, conceptually the idea of reducing swing damage by cutting a big chunk off of any incoming crit or sneak attack is a good one, because chances are it's that random critical hit that deals your full health in damage that's going to kill you, not the smaller attacks that you have time to react to (either to retreat, heal, or kill the guy attacking you). But yeah if you're only giving like DR10/non-crit or DR15/non-crit, then that's bullshit stuff because it won't make a real difference when you're crit in the face for 200 damage.
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Post by darkmaster »

I prefer to think that since you don't get a +7 sword until level 21 that makes +7 the new epic in tome. Though, then there is weapon of righteous destruction, which stacks it's bonus, but still.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

The +1/3 rounds up, so you actually get your +7 enhancement bonus at level 19.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Kaelik wrote:But he has DR X/ Non criticals in his example in the proper place (complete shit) but he then has DR X/Critical Hits as good, but not as good as DR X/Silver.

Which is false, it's just better.
No need for you to feel bad about not realizing how things actually work, I was initially surprised too.

Lemme try and explain in more depth:

Assuming that everybody only crits on a natural 20, DR X/Criticals gets bypassed 5% if the time. In actual play it's going to be a bit more frequent than that due to increased ranges, keen edge, improved crit, samuarai Kiai! and such , but I'll go with 5% because we know that's the worst-case figure.

Depending how exactly you count them (dragon age categories, templates, etc), there are somewhere around 450 different monster entries in the 3.5 Monster Manual. THERE ARE EXACTLY THREE OF THEM WITH SILVER WEAPONS. Hound Archon Hero, Harpy Archer, Githyanki - that's it. Three shall be the number of critters which get to ignore this. Three out of Four Hundred and Fifty is less than one percent, meaning that DR X/ Critical hits is actually more than five times as commonly ignored as DR X / Silver is.

If you want to argue classed NPCs, you would have half a point, but not a full one. The DMG NPC stat chapter lists the Barbarian, Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger and Rogue as having a small number of Silvered Arrows or Bolts. None of the listed NPCs have a silver melee weapon nor a tube of Silversheen. And if the sample 5th level fighter is trading in his +10 melee 1d10+5 attack for a +8 ranged 1d8+3 attack that loses another point for Alchemical Silver, he's already losing out on 4 points of damage and +2 to hit (which he could be pumping into power attack) against you, meaning that he's actually better off trying to power through DR 5/silver than in switching weapons to ignore it. So even some of those guys with appropriate weapons will not use them.

So, basically DR X/ Special material is an ability that applies all the time, save for when Mister Cavern specifically builds opponents with a way to get around it. And with Tome, it's likely going to be more common for such enemies to have attacks which just outright ignore all forms of DR than it is for them to have weapons of the appropriate materials. And thus, it's most appropriate to rank DR X/Silver (or other special material) the same as DR / -- in terms of how often it will matter in PC hands.


Seerow wrote: DRX/non-criticals I think is actually a decent idea
It's a fine idea.

Charging for it like it is a meaningful ability is the bad idea.

This is so minor that there are people who run the game now who give a version of this to all of their player characters without even bothering to write it down or admit to anyone that they are doing so. We have some of them on this forum who have recently argued quite passionately in favor of doing so.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by virgil »

Josh_Kablack wrote:Depending how exactly you count them (dragon age categories, templates, etc), there are somewhere around 450 different monster entries in the 3.5 Monster Manual. THERE ARE EXACTLY THREE OF THEM WITH SILVER WEAPONS. Hound Archon Hero, Harpy Archer, Githyanki - that's it. Three shall be the number of critters which get to ignore this. Three out of Four Hundred and Fifty is less than one percent, meaning that DR X/ Critical hits is actually more than five times as commonly ignored as DR X / Silver is.
Don't creatures with DR X/Silver count as wielding silver weapons for purposes of penetrating DR?

Oh, wait, that's only for magic and alignment based DR. That just made images of werewolf v werewolf fights much more amusing.
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Post by darkmaster »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:The +1/3 rounds up, so you actually get your +7 enhancement bonus at level 19.
That's right, okay, so +8 is epic, the point remains, the Epic threshold for weapon enhancement should probably be higher to account for 3.tome's higher enhancement bonuses.
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Post by Koumei »

Yeah, saying "+8 is Epic, and it will never become relevant" works for me. And "All my weapons are magic and of the sun!" can just not stack because fuck you. Look at that! Solved!
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Post by Kaelik »

Josh_Kablack wrote:Depending how exactly you count them (dragon age categories, templates, etc), there are somewhere around 450 different monster entries in the 3.5 Monster Manual. THERE ARE EXACTLY THREE OF THEM WITH SILVER WEAPONS. Hound Archon Hero, Harpy Archer, Githyanki - that's it. Three shall be the number of critters which get to ignore this. Three out of Four Hundred and Fifty is less than one percent, meaning that DR X/ Critical hits is actually more than five times as commonly ignored as DR X / Silver is.
If only there where some way to have an int score, and be able to carry around silver weapons when your nemisis party is 4 werewolves. If only Demons who can teleport anywhere in the entire universe had some method of obtaining a silver weapon when they realize their strategy wasn't working. If only DMs customized monsters and NPCs, instead of using the exact DMG models every time.

PS, any system of counting how good DR is which claims that an Allip counts in anyones favor is wrong. If an Allip attacks, your DR is irrelevant, so every time an Allip crits, your DR/Crits protected you exactly the same amount as DR/Silver. Your counting method is wrong, now tell me how many of the 450 monsters aren't going to make attacks that are blocked by any kind of DR.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Kaelik wrote:If only there where some way to have an int score, and be able to carry around silver weapons when your nemisis party is 4 werewolves. If only Demons who can teleport anywhere in the entire universe had some method of obtaining a silver weapon when they realize their strategy wasn't working. If only DMs customized monsters and NPCs, instead of using the exact DMG models every time.
It is literally the only objective standard you can use. When you make a monster manual, the monsters therein are intended to be used. It's a selling point. Now, they did a shitty job of that, we can agree, but that's how it stands.
PS, any system of counting how good DR is which claims that an Allip counts in anyones favor is wrong. If an Allip attacks, your DR is irrelevant, so every time an Allip crits, your DR/Crits protected you exactly the same amount as DR/Silver. Your counting method is wrong, now tell me how many of the 450 monsters aren't going to make attacks that are blocked by any kind of DR.
Using the methodology you're hinting at, you would find all the creatures which primarily use physical damage to which DR can apply, and then count the number of them which overcome silver DR. The upper bound on the number that can overcome silver DR is three. If there are more than 60 monsters in the MM which use primarily physical damage to kill people, then silver DR applies in >95% cases and therefore more than criticals.

Can we stop here, or do you need to be convinced that there are more than sixty monsters in the MM which use primarily physical damage?
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Post by Kaelik »

DSMatticus wrote:It is literally the only objective standard you can use. When you make a monster manual, the monsters therein are intended to be used. It's a selling point. Now, they did a shitty job of that, we can agree, but that's how it stands.
No, that's the point, pretending int 29 demons aren't smart enough to figure out to go get a silver sword is not the MM.

The MM has int 29 Demons with Greater Teleport at will. If they are not capable of doing enough damage, they can figure out to leave and try again with a new weapon. That's the objective standard in the MM.

Did you know Allips who stand in one spot and never attack are really easy, so objectively, if Allips stand still and don't attack, everyone can beat them. But they don't do that. So you are wasting your time when you advocate stupid locationally confined demons.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

You know, I could get into an argument about how such demons are just as capable of fetching things like Falchions and oil of Keen Edge, and that even an ability that causes an enemy to go away for two rounds and then come back is still an ability which comes into play, and how 29 is greater than 11 (12 if you count the Construct (Extraplanar) ).

but then I noticed something:
Kaelik wrote:. If only DMs customized monsters and NPCs,
me in first post wrote: The counters to these are so rare that the only enemies who can bypass them are going to be specifically constructed by the MC to do so.
me in second post wrote: save for when Mister Cavern specifically builds opponents with a way to get around it
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But in the meantime, he can go shit in someone else's cheerios.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

The reason that material DRs are not as good is because enemies can adopt them after they find them. The part where you pretend that it's the DM specifically countering your PC when you fight the BBEG's four hundredth hit squad, and they have Silver weapons, is just you being a disingenuous twit about what actually happens, and is actually assumed in, amongst other things, DR. It's not the DM specifically countering, it's what your opponents actually fucking do.
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

virgil wrote:
Josh_Kablack wrote:Depending how exactly you count them (dragon age categories, templates, etc), there are somewhere around 450 different monster entries in the 3.5 Monster Manual. THERE ARE EXACTLY THREE OF THEM WITH SILVER WEAPONS. Hound Archon Hero, Harpy Archer, Githyanki - that's it. Three shall be the number of critters which get to ignore this. Three out of Four Hundred and Fifty is less than one percent, meaning that DR X/ Critical hits is actually more than five times as commonly ignored as DR X / Silver is.
Don't creatures with DR X/Silver count as wielding silver weapons for purposes of penetrating DR?

Oh, wait, that's only for magic and alignment based DR. That just made images of werewolf v werewolf fights much more amusing.
When Andy Collins made 3.5 and shat in the DR rules, he made them a confusing mess. One of the ways that he made them a confusing mess is the way that monsters with DR penetrate and fail to penetrate other DR. Epic and Magic tags on DR also apply to natural weapons. Alignment DR and Alignment subtypes apply to natural or manufactured weapons. But substance, damage type, and "-" DRs aren't listed as transferring at all. So a powerful Eladrin has the [Good] subtype and DR/Evil and Cold Iron. So if they punch another Eladrin, that punch counts as Good and Evil, but not Cold Iron so they don't penetrate. If they wield a Cold Iron weapon, that counts as both Good and Evil as well and they actually can penetrate.

It's a clusterfuck of stupid. I'm pretty sure that the natural weapons of creatures with material DR are supposed to count as that material for purposes of penetrating DR. But the 3.5 rules do not actually say that. Still, if you were fixing them up, that would obviously be one of the changes you would make. Golem and Lycanthrope slap fights are too stupid otherwise.

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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Yeah, it's stupid that the material DR rules weren't more thoroughly integrated into the revised monster entries. And, the bit where intelligent enemies with Greater Teleport don't bother to dig up appropriate weapons and instead get through your DR by using held actions to drop 31+ lb boulders from 561 ft above your head is so asinine that even Pathfinder handles it better. But with my knowledge of Universal horror movies, I'm not sure it's actually a bad thing that the werewolf vs frankenstein monster fight is about them looking for a high cliff or a large bonfire or fancy crucifix to throw bull rush each other off of / into / onto.

But all of that is really tangential to my purpose here of evaluating how often the different types of DR can be expected to come into play when given out to PCs via item abilities.
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Post by Archmage »

Even most intelligent opposition, excepting outsiders and classed NPCs, is not going to be able to teleport/flee from combat to retrieve an appropriate weapon and come back. I think I agree with the initial assessment, Josh.
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Post by Vebyast »

I think that the question is not whether an intelligent opponent can get a weapon material, it's whether they can get the right weapon material. Even a limited selection like cold iron/adamantine/silver means you get two or three free shots as your opponent comes out of Greater Teleport.
Last edited by Vebyast on Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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