Legend: some dude's d20 clone

Vnonymous · Post by **Vnonymous** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:19 am

IRC is still the best chat software out there.

Its' also used for filesharing and controlling botnets, and it does pretty well at that.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:17 pm

He took it because Sage has like 6 HP per level, and Utter Brute has 12. Also, Utter Brute has those "I kill things" goodies, which fit with his idea of having a magic sword and stabbing people.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:56 pm

...You Lost Me wrote:He took it because Sage has like 6 HP per level, and Utter Brute has 12. Also, Utter Brute has those "I kill things" goodies, which fit with his idea of having a magic sword and stabbing people.

Why not just be an utter brute with weaponized, attack unarmed, and fluff it as magic sword?

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:38 am

He wanted "ALL THE WEAPONS" for tripping and stuff and we ruled that Weaponized only applies if the average damage of the weapon is lower than the weaponized damage. So he'll change from Greatsword to flail to mace and such.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:27 am

There's been rules added for quick-generating minions.

http://www.ruleofcool.com/wp-content/up ... /Mooks.pdf

Also some sample monsters.

http://www.ruleofcool.com/wp-content/up ... blocks.pdf

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:22 pm

It's weird that Frost Giants are given as such lowlevel creatures. You can still totally level them up, but if the average Frost Giant is weaker than the average Dire Wolf, that seems like it's really subverting a lot of D&D history, and not really in a good way.

And those sample monsters do seem rather on the complex side.

The minion rules look fairly usable, though.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:34 pm

Blicero wrote:It's weird that Frost Giants are given as such lowlevel creatures. You can still totally level them up, but if the average Frost Giant is weaker than the average Dire Wolf, that seems like it's really subverting a lot of D&D history, and not really in a good way.

And those sample monsters do seem rather on the complex side.

The minion rules look fairly usable, though.

Yeah, minion rules are all right, but they really are what the default monsters should be. The monster previews look exactly like what they seemed to be from the core book: 4 paths translating into lots and lots of powers. Not a single monster is above 9th level, but all of them take literally an entire page, with just stats and powers. No fluff text or anything. I could see maybe handling one monster per encounter like that, but expecting every standard monster to be like that is ridiculous.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:35 pm

So, um, new feats. Juggernaut, among other things, allows you to base all class features for one track off of Strength. For example, Spellcasting.

Looks like the Rage Mage just got better, if you're willing to give up MNiW.

Also any pretense of balance is gone.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:07 am

Damnit, they beat me to it.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:30 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:So, um, new feats. Juggernaut, among other things, allows you to base all class features for one track off of Strength. For example, Spellcasting.

Looks like the Rage Mage just got better, if you're willing to give up MNiW.

Also any pretense of balance is gone.

Dartmuth Secret is like that as well. Unless I'm missing something major, these feats seem to be bizarrely OP. (I also don't get the fluff for it at all as it pertains to the actual abilities. Presumably it's a reference to Dartmouth or something?)

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:35 am

Blicero wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:

So, um, new feats. Juggernaut, among other things, allows you to base all class features for one track off of Strength. For example, Spellcasting.

Looks like the Rage Mage just got better, if you're willing to give up MNiW.

Also any pretense of balance is gone.

Dartmuth Secret is like that as well. Unless I'm missing something major, these feats seem to be bizarrely OP. (I also don't get the fluff for it at all as it pertains to the actual abilities. Presumably it's a reference to Dartmouth or something?)

Yeah, it's kinda sad. Especially considering that letting you use Strength or Intelligence for anything should be balanced, since they're otherwise the most worthless attributes in the game. C'est la 3e.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:27 am

Here are a bunch of suggested changes that it is almost certainly too late to implement, and which would probably not have made it in anyway. Nevertheless, I think they're good ones.

Core Rules
_____________
Basic Changes

A note on math: Often, you will be required to divide one number by another to determine the numeric value of an attribute or effect. Whenever the result is fractional, round up to the nearest whole number.

Why? This avoids akwardness like adding one to all fractional bonuses gained at 1st level.

Attributes
_____________
Basic Changes

There are four basic attributes: Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Strength.

Charisma adds to Will, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Ride.

Dexterity adds to Reflex, Initiative, Acrobatics, Larceny, and Stealth.

Intelligence adds to Awareness, Perception*, and all Knowledge skills.

Strength adds to Fortitude, hit points per level, and Athletics.

Why? Because currently too many attributes don't do enough, or do too much. 4e-style saves makes strong & hardy, smart and agile, or wise and persuasive characters undesireable, and attempts to 'juice up' such characters with better ability sets (e.g. Barbarian) leads to even more imbalance.

_______________
Extreme Changes

Attribute scores range from -5 to infinity. Legend is designed for characters using a standard attribute array of +3, +2, +1, -1. If a character's attribute drops below -5, she becomes incapacitated until her attribute returns to -5.

Saving Throws
_____________
Basic Changes

Awareness, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will should be on the same schedule. It doesn't matter whether they all use standard save progressions, level plus modifiers, or 1/2 level plus modifiers. They're all saves, they should all be on the same schedule. It also doesn't matter whether they are 'throws' or passive defenses, but they should be one or the other.

Classes & Races
_____________
Basic Changes

With the above attribute changes, many classes need new KOMs or KDMs. Here is a possible set.
Barbarian: Str, Dex.
Monk: Int, Str.
Paladin: Str, Cha.
Ranger: Dex, Int.
Rogue: (Dex|Dex|Int), (Str|Int|Cha).
Sage: Cha or Int, Dex or Str.
Shaman: Int, Cha.
Tactician: Int, Str.

Some races need different bonuses.
Dwarf: + Int & Str, - Cha.
Elf: + Dex & Int, - Str.
Gnome: + Cha.
Orc: + Str.

The Path of Rage's Strength bonus is over the top. Abilities like this should be considered in the following way: 'Would a maximim of +14 to an attribute be overpowered for any attribute or any other class tracks?'. My inclination is to change it to a bonus to damage and Athletics.

Skills
_____________
Basic Changes

An argument can be made for Perception being Awareness, although if Awareness stays passive there are some decent arguments for active Perception.

Actions & Combat
_____________
Basic Changes

The suprise round is an useless throwback to 3e. Just have an encounter start with people rolling initiative, and have 'surprise' be an emergent property of not expecting an attack (due to failure of Awareness, most likely).

Spells
_____________
Basic Changes

Spellcasting tracks at full buy-in are better than items for pretty much any character. One clear example is "nature's power", which blows attribute bonus items out of the water (as well as stacking with them). You could change the nature's power bonus to '+2 (or +1) item bonus to a physical attribute', change the bonus to apply to a skill, or remove both the spell and attribute bonus items from the game entirely.

Reverting to the 3e system of minimum attribute requirements for spell levels might be attractive, but that only nerfs spell casting buy-in for certain classes.

Equipment
_____________
Basic Changes

'Guardian' implies that it is synonymous with 'one-handed', but there are a number of one-handed weapons which aren't 'guardian'. So either remove the Guardian trait or the one-handed/two-handed designations (offenders: flail, spear).

Spear and longspear are the same weapon, save that you can use a spear one-handed. Drop the longspear like a bad habit.

The longsword in two hands is identical to a greatsword. The battleaxe in two hands is identical to a greataxe. The mace in two hands is identical to a warhammer or a staff. All main weapons are basically identical, but that's OK because of flavor an feat distinctions.

But all you really need for swords and axes (not including the tomahawk) is a 'sword' and a 'battleaxe'.

VladtheLad · Post by **VladtheLad** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:23 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:So, um, new feats. Juggernaut, among other things, allows you to base all class features for one track off of Strength. For example, Spellcasting.

Looks like the Rage Mage just got better, if you're willing to give up MNiW.

Also any pretense of balance is gone.

Seems they agree with you http://www.ruleofcool.com/?p=242

Actually they already have changed Juggernaught.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:18 pm

VladtheLad wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:So, um, new feats. Juggernaut, among other things, allows you to base all class features for one track off of Strength. For example, Spellcasting.

Looks like the Rage Mage just got better, if you're willing to give up MNiW.

Also any pretense of balance is gone.
Seems they agree with you http://www.ruleofcool.com/?p=242

Actually they already have changed Juggernaught.

Damn', that was fast.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:11 pm

It's nice of them to respond so well to critique.

In other news, Catharz, as much as I like your system, it appears that Charisma is getting the middle finger again and Strength is now the life tax.

Also, I've always wanted a name for a save to "Alacrity" now that I think about it. There should be a save called "Alacrity"...

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:52 pm

...You Lost Me wrote:It's nice of them to respond so well to critique.

In other news, Catharz, as much as I like your system, it appears that Charisma is getting the middle finger again and Strength is now the life tax.

Also, I've always wanted a name for a save to "Alacrity" now that I think about it. There should be a save called "Alacrity"...

No worse Strength than Constitution.

I was thinking that KDM could add to HP as well as (or rather than) AC. That would hammer home the value of KDM, rather than the current setup which makes it tertiary unless you have abilities based on it. Unfortunately, it would leave Strength out in the cold again (unless you based AC off of Strength).

As far as Charisma getting shafted, I don't see it. Will saves and social skills are both important to keep from getting turned into a doormat, and Ride give out a fucking cohort.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:04 pm

It probably would be best to make HP based off of the KDM, actually. That's a pretty damn good idea. The whole thing is an abstraction anyways; it wouldn't hurt. You could put Dex to AC then, and maybe put Init to intelligence, find something to shift to Cha, and place Intimidate/Ride in Strength to compensate for the loss.

Also, ride grants cohorts? How does? Most of the abilities I see there aren't entirely "I have a new player" so much as "moar buffs!"

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:20 pm

The way the mount rules work, it seems a bit more like getting an item. If it granted a mook companion, I could see that as working ok.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:09 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
_______________
Extreme Changes

Attribute scores range from -5 to infinity. Legend is designed for characters using a standard attribute array of +3, +2, +1, -1. If a character's attribute drops below -5, she becomes incapacitated until her attribute returns to -5.

What the fu....no. No negatives. Attribute scores range from 0 to infinity, standard array is something like +4, +2, +1 +1. Zero is a valid attribute score. Going negative = incapacitated. Model being shitty at stuff with penalties to untrained skill rolls or something.

JesterZero · Post by **JesterZero** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:12 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:The way the mount rules work, it seems a bit more like getting an item.

That's my understanding as well, although it seems to be an "item" that doesn't count against your item "slot" limit.

You have to do some cross-referencing between the recently-released mount rules and the write-up for the Ride skill, but mechanically it seems to be a lot more like having a slot-less item that provides buffs (notably movement modifiers at the early levels) rather than having a second character or cohort who can participate in the action economy.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:51 pm

Ferret wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:
_______________
Extreme Changes

Attribute scores range from -5 to infinity. Legend is designed for characters using a standard attribute array of +3, +2, +1, -1. If a character's attribute drops below -5, she becomes incapacitated until her attribute returns to -5.
What the fu....no. No negatives. Attribute scores range from 0 to infinity, standard array is something like +4, +2, +1 +1. Zero is a valid attribute score. Going negative = incapacitated. Model being shitty at stuff with penalties to untrained skill rolls or something.

The advantage of Catharz's model is that the bonuses he gives are the same bonuses you'd get from a 16, 14, 13, 8 attribute array. Which means that you can keep the same basic d20 scales in place.

But if you're ripping out all of the guts and starting anew, then, yeah, your system is the way to do things. (If you even have attributes.)

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:14 am

Blicero wrote:
Ferret wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:
_______________
Extreme Changes

Attribute scores range from -5 to infinity. Legend is designed for characters using a standard attribute array of +3, +2, +1, -1. If a character's attribute drops below -5, she becomes incapacitated until her attribute returns to -5.
What the fu....no. No negatives. Attribute scores range from 0 to infinity, standard array is something like +4, +2, +1 +1. Zero is a valid attribute score. Going negative = incapacitated. Model being shitty at stuff with penalties to untrained skill rolls or something.

The advantage of Catharz's model is that the bonuses he gives are the same bonuses you'd get from a 16, 14, 13, 8 attribute array. Which means that you can keep the same basic d20 scales in place.

But if you're ripping out all of the guts and starting anew, then, yeah, your system is the way to do things. (If you even have attributes.)

Yes, zero (or below zero) should be incapacitated, but there are too many ways in Legend to add two attribute modifiers (or more) to a d20 roll. Having a standard attribute array of 8, 7, 6, 4 (or with six attributes, 8, 7, 7, 6, 5, 4) would totally fuck the math. Using 4, 2, 1, 1 would make attribute damage way too good in the current system.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:35 pm

I'm getting a bit concerned about Legend. It's been weeks since they hit the first donation milestone at which they pledged to produce an adventure module, and none have been released yet. If it takes this long for the makers of the game to write an adventure, that doesn't bode well for regular MCs.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:28 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:I'm getting a bit concerned about Legend. It's been weeks since they hit the first donation milestone at which they pledged to produce an adventure module, and none have been released yet. If it takes this long for the makers of the game to write an adventure, that doesn't bode well for regular MCs.

Let them have their Christmas break.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:39 am

Valid point.