RobbyPants wrote:Can you show me an example of what one of the gishes or mystic theruges would look like? I'm pretty lost.
Sure. Well start with the theurge, since that one is the easiest.
As it works right now, a class level fits into a character level like a panel in a slot. So, you begin as a wizard and reach level three, and you're a third level character. Great! You have a high INT, but you also have a religious side and a high WIS. Naturally, you decide to become a cleric at 4th level instead of continuing on as a Wizard. That probably felt good then, but it wasn't a good idea. At sixth level, you're still casting spells like a third level wizard, but your cleric casting has caught up
to your wizard level... It isn't horrible, but it isn't good, either. You don't have Fireball.
So you take the Mystic Theurge prestige class with the promise that both classes will be advanced together. As a 7th level character, you are casting spells as a 4th level wizard, and 4th level cleric. This still isn't good, but at least you're not falling behind any further. But then again, you are falling behind, since a Mystic Theurge uses a d4 HD, poor BAB and only has WILL as a good save. You're versatility and spell casting endurance is mitigated by the fact that you're one or two spell levels behind, and thus lagging in spell DCs and the power of your effects. You can't even heal bot properly because counters to strategies and certain status effects are often available at the spell levels those same strategies and status effects become available. The best you can do is cast low level spells a lot more often. And then at character level 16 you have pick between adding to cleric and wizard again since you've run out of Mystic Theurge prestige class to feel adequate in. Of course, you probably ditched the character to cohort status long before then.
With this proposed multi-class rules, things can be complicated, but the results are clear. For character with two classes character are easier to calculate; your class levels will be 1 less than your character level. For a theurge, you'll want to be a straight Cleric/Wizard. It doesn't matter which class you take first, since the second class will catch up before when you gain enough XP to reach the next character level, and then you gain a level in each class for each character level you gain after that. At character level 4, you're a level 3 cleric and a level 3 wizard. You use the 3 of the Cleric's HD of d8 (which likely rolled much better than the the wizard's d4s), the Good Fort and Will save of a third level character, and comparable skill ranks. You can progress like that until the end of the game, where you are half a spell level behind, like a Sorcerer, but have the HP, saves and skills to compare to with other characters of your character level. Actually, this character is probably broken seven ways to the ice cream bar, but that's little more than any cleric or wizard alone...
Things get a bit complicated if you want to take a prestige class, since you have to allocate XP in weird ways. A Mystic Theurge would require you be a 4th level character. If you wanted, you could progress Mystic Theurge above your Wizard and Cleric levels. It took 18000 xp to reach character level 4, and have 3 levels in both Wizard and Cleric. From then on, your Mystic Thurge level (plus dummy levels) would be 18,000 xp behind character level. After a few levels, your Mystic Theurge level would effectively be one less than your character level, until character level 16, which is when you've run out of Mystic Theurge levels to take.
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This Gish is a much better to demonstration. When you think of a sword mage, you think of a wizard that can fight with a sword really well. Like Gandalf, who can fight with two weapons
and he's a wizard. (But he's not a ninja.)
With the standard 3e rules, you're probably want to become an Eldritch Knight, since you get near full-spell casting. But to qualify, you need full martial weapon proficiency, unobtainable unless to take a level in a class that grants it. So you take a level of fighter at some point, likely right after getting access to third level spells. At character level 6, you're a 5th level Wizard, and 1st level Fighter. Whatever. You're caster level behind, but at 7th level you can become an Eldritch Knight and rock near full spell casting and near full BAB... Except just having BAB isn't enough, you also need options to back it up. You have martial weapons, and while your BAB is comparable to a Cleric or Rogue by the time you're done the class, you have the same number of feats as those guys, and thus are hitting just as often as them. But you won't do well, since you have to stay out of armor and not use shields to avoid ACP, and your HP isn't quite as good as a rogue's. Melee spells doom for you, as it does for any wizard, so best avoid that. So you take up the bow, and can hit as well as a rogue with one could. You don't have sneak attack, but you do have spell casting, that's two levels behind. Not horrible, but certainly not good.
Alternatively, you may be interested in the Arcane Archer prestige class, and take that instead of Fighter to qualify for Elderitch Knight. That's a gish, right? Focusing on ranged attacks will certainly keep you away from melee. And then there's the Imbue Arrow Ability, which sounds pretty awesome, right? Unfortunately, you have to sacrifice three caster levels with this build, which means your as good as the Mystic Theurge from above in a single spells casting class. But you have a decent BAB right? That still means something, right?
With the proposed system from above, Gish characters look a lot more promising, and easier to pull off. Just like the Cleric/Wizard from above, a Fighter/Wizard is a wonderful meaty mage. Two good saves, d10 HD, full BaB and spell casting, all a level behind character level. Still no armor due to ACP, but a couple of spells can change that.
The Arcane Archer Class looks very tempting now, doesn't it? You don't need to take Elderitch Knight to keep your spell casting advancing, and since you only needed to take a single Wizard level to qualify, the Arcane Archer Class only has one dummy level (though you can't start it until your third feat). At character level 12, you have 11th level spell casting, a BaB of +10, nearly all good saves, 1d4+10d8 HD, and a number of interesting abilities.
The Elderitch Knight looks a lot better now, too, since you don't have to sacrifice too many characters levels to pull it off. Again, you have to be a sixth level character to become an Elderitch Knight, but instead of a Wizard 5/Fighter 1, you're a Wizard 5/Fighter 5. Much more respectable. You could cheese this by advancing all three classes together to acquire accelerated wizard spell casting progression, so maybe this doesn't work out great.
