D&DN, Wizard at-wills are bought with feats, n' other things

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D&DN, Wizard at-wills are bought with feats, n' other things

Post by OgreBattle »

This report from the playtest is more thorough as the guy pretty much delivers everything that's not in the NDA:

http://dndfifthcolumn.com/
Looking forward to what's Next…
Considering the D&D Next Playtest in Light of the WotC Seminars
February 7, 2012

OK. So it’s a little over a week after the D&D Next playtest at DDXP.

In my previous post, I was extremely circumspect regarding my playtest experience. This was due, of course, to the NDA which WotC required all playtesters to sign.

The closed playtest, however, was not the only event going on at the convention. WotC presented a seminar each day, and all but one of the seminars dealt, in some way, with D&D Next. I have now had a chance to go over the seminar transcripts in detail, and to identify which information WotC has decided to make public.

Since my NDA only prohibits me from revealing confidential information, I feel comfortable commenting in more detail on aspects of the new system which WotC discussed at the seminars. This gives me a welcome opportunity to describe my playtest experience in terms that I hope will be helpful to those who could not make it to the convention.

First, WotC has revealed enough about races and classes that I can (mostly) outline the composition of my adventuring party from the playtest. Since I didn’t get a full look at every character sheet, I have used question marks to indicate where I am unclear regarding a race or a class. I have omitted the race of Joe’s warlord, because it is a race that has not yet been discussed publicly by WotC (hint: it’s not the flumph):

Human Paladin (me)

Elven Wizard (my friend Lauren)

Warlord (Joe from The Fifth Column, and Lauren’s husband)

Halfling Rogue

Half-Orc Barbarian?

Human? Cleric

So I played a paladin for four hours. He felt very righteous…

In the WotC seminars, Monte Cook explained that characters in D&D Next have stats, a class, a race, and a theme. To be honest, during the entire playtest I didn’t even realize my paladin had a theme. There wasn’t some big header on the character sheet that said THEME in 16-point type. The character, however, was given a knightly honorific (it started out as Dame, but I don’t get into gender-bending my RP, so I changed it to Sir.) There was also a paragraph or two of background about what it meant to be a knight, and how my character got along with the upper classes.

After reading a comment by The Chatty DM over at Critical Hits (who also played the paladin, but in a different playtest group) I realized that “Knight” had, in fact, been my character’s theme.

On the one had, I wish that the character sheet would have been better laid-out, so that I would have more clearly understood where the mechanics were coming from. On the other hand, not knowing that “Knight” was my theme didn’t affect my enjoyment of the game session one bit. Nor did it affect my ability to contribute to the adventure. I had one non-combat related skill that was tied to my theme, and I did call upon it during play.

I was armed with a sword, wore scale mail, and carried various and sundry adventuring items, with a few silver pieces left over (the silver standard is here at last–William Jennings Bryan would be proud…)

Stat wise, my character sheet featured the big six ability scores, as well as HP and AC. Saving throws and other defenses were gone. As Monte explained in the Skills and Abilities seminar, saves are now rolled based on your ability scores.

Skills provided situational bonuses to checks that were also based on ability scores. As Bruce Cordell and Monte discussed in the same seminar, the D&D Next skill system is currently open-ended. Rolling to use any skill is always resolved as an ability check. The skill itself simply provides a bonus to that particular ability check in a specific situation.

In the example Bruce uses, you may get a bonus to Dex checks based on a high ability score. You would use this for any dexterity-based tasks. Let’s say you have a skill, however, that gives you an additional bonus for sneaking around. Whenever you decide to be sneaky, you would still roll a Dex check (it’s a dexterity-based task,) but in addition to your standard Dex bonus, you would also add your sneaky bonus.

Structuring skills in this way lets the designers create class features with any flavor they want–because ultimately they are only worried about what sort of bonus the feature will give to the relevant ability check.

It’s a fairly elegant solution, and it played-out well when my paladin decided to use a Charisma check to gather intelligence from a tribe of kobolds about the other denizens of the Caves of Chaos. When our party decided to bargain with the ogre, however (see below) the warlord stepped in, because he had a skill that gave him a bump in that particular situation, while I was just rolling a straight Charisma check.

One element of the new system that was apparent right away was the DM/player core mechanic Monte talks about in the Edition for All Editions seminar. As he puts it, “player says ‘I want to X’ and DM responds.” Our Dungeon Master (Dave TheGame from Critical Hits,) made it clear that we could try to do anything we wanted, and that he wasn’t going to be rolling unless it was absolutely necessary. This was not because he is a fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants DM (although he may be) but because the system is built to maximize DM discretion and to minimize rolling for the use of basic character abilities.

A great example of this was our rogue. When we arrived at the Caves, the rogue decided to go exploring along the rim of the ravine. This entailed climbing the walls, moving silently, and staying hidden from any residents we didn’t want to meet right away. The rogue explored the entire area and reported back to the party–and he didn’t roll once. Although this may seem like a simple case of DM fiat, it wasn’t. The player running the rogue had already participated in a previous playtest session. When it came time to do his thing, he didn’t even bother looking to Dave for confirmation–he simply announced confidently to the party that he had the reconnoitering under control. Then he proceeded to make it happen. It ran smoothly, effortlessly, and I would say better than I have seen it run in any other edition I have played.

A similar situation occurred when we paid a visit to a cave complex full of orcs. We had hired the local ogre to help us out (my paladin allowed the cleric to convince him that if we enlisted the help of the ogre, we might be able to turn him from his wicked ways.) As we approached the closed wooden door barring the way to the chambers of the orc chieftain, I turned to the ogre to ask him to do the honors. I was stopped in my request by our half-orc barbarian, who said with a knowing smile “I’ve got this.” He then turned to the DM and stated “I kick in the door.” Now, this player had also participated in previous playtest sessions–so he knew the ropes. Dave simply acknowledged that the door gave way with a splintering crash, and we were into the final combat of the game session.

We had two fights during the playtest, and both were fast-paced and interesting. The martial characters stuck to the front lines, while the rogue attacked from around a corner. The wizard made frequent use of the “javalin of fire” at-will magic feat (discussed by Rob Schwalb in the Skills and Ability Scores seminar) but she also had carefully chosen her spells for the day, and deployed them where they would do the most good. I felt the mechanic of the attacker (our wizard) setting the DC for the defender added tension to the fight, and differentiated her attacks nicely from standard melee or ranged attacks.

In the seminars, Monte talks about giving extra abilities to monsters, and I think this is a place where the designers have really taken a cue from 4e. In one of our combats, my paladin suddenly found himself in a specific tactical situation, and Dave revealed that this triggered certain bonuses on the part of the monsters we were fighting. As a DM, I have really enjoyed the wide variation of powers exhibited by well designed monsters in 4e. I was pleased to see that some of this design philosophy seems to have made it into the prototype for D&D Next.

The combat we played was almost completely narrative. Dave used a battlemat, but only for the most basic of positioning. I asked him about running more tactical combats, and he said that he thought the rules for that weren’t ready yet.

As I explained in my previous post, our party did not fair well in the adventure as a whole. WotC stated in the seminars that “surviving at low levels and beyond is something that players will be careful of if they’re doing more dangerous tasks.” Our party ran headlong into this when we decided to take on one of the higher-level caves without adequately assessing the threat. None of the players resented the near-TPK–not only was this just a playtest, but we were all aware that we had decided to leap before we looked…

As you can see from this summary, our group got a chance to engage in all three of the elements Mike Mearls discusses in the Editions for all Editions seminar: roleplaying, combat and exploration. The playtest gave me a good grasp of how all three work in D&D Next. I can hardly wait to try it from the other side of the screen…
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Post by Username17 »

Keeping characters on the same RNG is really hard, especially if your game offers choices in character development. 5e solves that dilemma by simply having the players start off that RNG. The example Rogue had broken the RNG and just dictated his decisions without rolling dice. That is what a broken RNG looks like.

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Post by Kaelik »

Yeah, I'm genuinely confused why it's a good thing that apparently the Rogue can scout with a 100% success chance.

I mean... yeah, it's a different way to play the game, but we already had that in 3e, after level 7.

And this has the added disadvantage of not being clear how it works when the Rogue with "always succeed on scout" runs into the Dragon with "always detect adventurers before they get near."
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Post by hogarth »

FrankTrollman wrote: The example Rogue had broken the RNG and just dictated his decisions without rolling dice. That is what a broken RNG looks like.
Not really. It's just good ol'-fashioned "Magical Tea Party"/"Mother May I". I'm 100% sure that the DM could just as easily have said "nope, you can't climb that wall" without rolling as well.

----

Personally, I have mixed feelings about the way they were playing.

On the one hand, I dislike the idea of the DM being able to cock-block the players at will by saying "you can't do that" without even rolling.

But on the other hand, I think there's probably too much rolling in D&D. The scouting rogue example is a good one; in games that I've played in, either the party rogue fails miserably at sneaking about 25% of the time (which makes scouting too dangerous) or the party rogue is so optimized at sneaking that she never fails (which defeats the purpose of rolling dice altogether). Likewise with Diplomacy -- there's not enough wiggle room between "1/4 of the time, people randomly hate you" and "people always love you".

On a side note, I sometimes play with a woman who randomly rolls stuff all the time without being asked. E.g. just walking around she would roll Spot checks to avoid walking into poles, or in the middle of a fight she'd roll a Fortitude save to see if she got sick at the sight of blood. I HATE THAT.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

That's either a broken RNG or that's the Mister Cavern already knowing the Rogue can make the check from playing with her. Or Mother May I. Still pretty inconclusive.

It does pretty much still sounds like vaporware, but I play enough rules light tea party bullshit games to not be incredibly concerned beyond the fact that critical game mechanics (tactical combat) don't exist yet.
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Post by Blicero »

hogarth wrote:
But on the other hand, I think there's probably too much rolling in D&D. The scouting rogue example is a good one; in games that I've played in, either the party rogue fails miserably at sneaking about 25% of the time (which makes scouting too dangerous) or the party rogue is so optimized at sneaking that she never fails (which defeats the purpose of rolling dice altogether). Likewise with Diplomacy -- there's not enough wiggle room between "1/4 of the time, people randomly hate you" and "people always love you".
That's the really nice thing about Burning Wheel's Let it Ride Mechanic: The rulebook explicitly says something along the line of "If you're about to engage in a lengthy and complex action, you only need to roll once. Your result will determine all of your outcomes until either the action finishes, or the situation in which you are performing your action is altered dramatically."

It's similar to what Ends of the Matrix advocates when dealing with Matrix Stealth/Perception tests, I believe.



But this does just sound like MTP.
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Re: D&DN, Wizard at-wills are bought with feats, n' other things

Post by Windjammer »

OgreBattle wrote:This report from the playtest is more thorough as the guy pretty much delivers everything that's not in the NDA:
He cross-posted his playtest report at Enworld to which the following reply was promptly made:
I feel like I missed DDXP. I was there, I did the play test. Your experience in all aspects but one, is nothing like mine. Either I got a seriously bum DM, or the rules are in a very loose and open to interpretation state. The only part I had the same experience is, yeah, level 1 is not about victory, it's all about survival. In 6 combats, we fled 4 times, 3 of them all the way back to town.
Frank should collect these price quotes for his '5E = vaporware' thesis.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Kaelik wrote:Yeah, I'm genuinely confused why it's a good thing that apparently the Rogue can scout with a 100% success chance.

I mean... yeah, it's a different way to play the game, but we already had that in 3e, after level 7.

And this has the added disadvantage of not being clear how it works when the Rogue with "always succeed on scout" runs into the Dragon with "always detect adventurers before they get near."
There's nothing wrong with a less detailed system that uses fewer rolls, particularly on things that should be routine for the character and that would hinder the group's fun if drawn out.

It's the same reason why you don't have to make a roll to take a dump (except in FATAL, and we can all agree that's a bad system). If nobody at the table cares about the Rogue's scouting minigame and forcing it on everyone just slows things down then you probably should just magical tea party it as much as possible.
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Post by Korwin »

So they want D&D 5 rules light.
Why would I change from FATE or similiar game rules if I like the rules light?
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Post by Kaelik »

hyzmarca wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Yeah, I'm genuinely confused why it's a good thing that apparently the Rogue can scout with a 100% success chance.

I mean... yeah, it's a different way to play the game, but we already had that in 3e, after level 7.

And this has the added disadvantage of not being clear how it works when the Rogue with "always succeed on scout" runs into the Dragon with "always detect adventurers before they get near."
There's nothing wrong with a less detailed system that uses fewer rolls, particularly on things that should be routine for the character and that would hinder the group's fun if drawn out.

It's the same reason why you don't have to make a roll to take a dump (except in FATAL, and we can all agree that's a bad system). If nobody at the table cares about the Rogue's scouting minigame and forcing it on everyone just slows things down then you probably should just magical tea party it as much as possible.
No, that's completely wrong. If nobody cares about the Rogues scouting minigame, it either shouldn't happen, or should have very clear simple rules that make it go quickly and smoothly.

What is not okay is for the Rogue to have a special ability "always succeed at scouting" and the Dragon to have an ability called "Always detect and react to enemies that are nearby."

The fights that this will cause are extreme, and fuck over everyone.

That's not a better method of adjudication, because now, instead, the DM and player will argue about it for 30 minutes and everyone else will have to weigh in, because the other option is the player dies for no goddam reason when he took an action he was told would succeed.

Having a +400 on MS, and Dragons having Blindsense is something that is easy to deal with, because the Rogue mostly never rolls, and still knows that there are things that can detect him even when he's not rolling. In addition, the Rogue having a specific number that is off the RNG accomplishes the goal of making it simple and quick when he succeeds, while still also making it possible to adjudicate when something else has a comparably good listen.

There is nothing this pseudo MTP grants that real mechanics don't also grant better, except wasting 30 minutes fighting about the result.
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Post by Red_Rob »

Are we missing something here? It looked to me like they were using the previously outlined "automatic successes" rule. So, the Rogue had Dex 18 and skills in Hide and Move Silently, which meant he was in "auto success" territory for the standard DC to remain hidden in a shadowy area, climb a rocky wall and make no noise over rocky terrain. Therefore he was able to complete all these tasks without rolling. If there had been a dragon with a super perception ability there, the DC would have been higher and he would have had to roll.

I'm more confused about this part:
5e test wrote:In the example Bruce uses, you may get a bonus to Dex checks based on a high ability score. You would use this for any dexterity-based tasks.
May? So its not a simple "add your stat as a whole number to the roll" then?
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Re: D&DN, Wizard at-wills are bought with feats, n' other things

Post by Morzas »

Windjammer wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:This report from the playtest is more thorough as the guy pretty much delivers everything that's not in the NDA:
He cross-posted his playtest report at Enworld to which the following reply was promptly made:
I feel like I missed DDXP. I was there, I did the play test. Your experience in all aspects but one, is nothing like mine. Either I got a seriously bum DM, or the rules are in a very loose and open to interpretation state. The only part I had the same experience is, yeah, level 1 is not about victory, it's all about survival. In 6 combats, we fled 4 times, 3 of them all the way back to town.
Frank should collect these price quotes for his '5E = vaporware' thesis.
Oh man, I can already hear the squeaky sounds of Monte Cook's backpedaling. I bet he's going to resolve this dissonance by claiming, "See! 5e's rules are so unwritte-- er, flexible that two groups using the same module had completely different play experiences. It works for everyone. The Edition Wars have ended. Edition Peace has begun!"
I have omitted the race of Joe’s warlord, because it is a race that has not yet been discussed publicly by WotC (hint: it’s not the flumph):
So there's a core race is under NDA and isn't Human, Elf, Halfling and Half-Orc are already confirmed. Said race probably has a Charisma or Intelligence bonus since it was a Warlord. Tiefling, maybe?
Last edited by Morzas on Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Red_Rob wrote:Are we missing something here? It looked to me like they were using the previously outlined "automatic successes" rule. So, the Rogue had Dex 18 and skills in Hide and Move Silently, which meant he was in "auto success" territory for the standard DC to remain hidden in a shadowy area, climb a rocky wall and make no noise over rocky terrain. Therefore he was able to complete all these tasks without rolling. If there had been a dragon with a super perception ability there, the DC would have been higher and he would have had to roll.

I'm more confused about this part:
5e test wrote:In the example Bruce uses, you may get a bonus to Dex checks based on a high ability score. You would use this for any dexterity-based tasks.
May? So its not a simple "add your stat as a whole number to the roll" then?
Vaporware and bad ideas promote people tearing it apart (as it should) and Kaelik doesn't need much to go into histrionics. But yeah, that example sounds like it might be the same old "every 2 ability points over 10 you get a +1 bonus" thing.

And even with a solid ruleset, you'll have people fucking up and the dice breaking bad. Different people play in different ways and do different things; with a vaporware ruleset there's even more of a chance for things to go wildly divergent.
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Re: D&DN, Wizard at-wills are bought with feats, n' other things

Post by hogarth »

Morzas wrote: Oh man, I can already hear the squeaky sounds of Monte Cook's backpedaling. I bet he's going to resolve this dissonance by claiming, "See! 5e's rules are so unwritte-- er, flexible that two groups using the same module had completely different play experiences. It works for everyone. The Edition Wars have ended. Edition Peace has begun!"
I agree that they'll spin it as "that's a feature, not a bug", but I wouldn't call that backpedaling.
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Post by fectin »

hogarth wrote:On a side note, I sometimes play with a woman who randomly rolls stuff all the time without being asked. E.g. just walking around she would roll Spot checks to avoid walking into poles, or in the middle of a fight she'd roll a Fortitude save to see if she got sick at the sight of blood. I HATE THAT.
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Post by Previn »

Mask_De_H wrote:Vaporware and bad ideas promote people tearing it apart (as it should) and Kaelik doesn't need much to go into histrionics. But yeah, that example sounds like it might be the same old "every 2 ability points over 10 you get a +1 bonus" thing.

And even with a solid ruleset, you'll have people fucking up and the dice breaking bad. Different people play in different ways and do different things; with a vaporware ruleset there's even more of a chance for things to go wildly divergent.
I'd suspect it's closer to your bonus is your ability score -10 or some such. Going back to our DC13 door breaking, having a str of 15 would be a +2 bonus, which isn't even a 50% chance to break down the door on a roll and only a 12 if you take 10, so I'm not sure why they'd go with automatic success at that point.

With classes and races only giving +1 to the relevant stat(s) then you're locking people into 'you must be this race/class to play' like 4e did. I'd also point this toward the ability-10=bonus as it's just changing the 3.x +2 for a race to the basic +1 modifier instead.

The sneaking example really has me on edge. I can't come up with any viable reason for a 1st level rogue to automatically succeed on stealth checks that works without something breaking down instantly. Well, except for MTP or there was nothing to check against.
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Post by tzor »

hogarth wrote:On a side note, I sometimes play with a woman who randomly rolls stuff all the time without being asked.
There was a time when I used to do stuff like that, not rolling saves that weren't needed, but sometimes when faced with a decision "should my character do this or should my charcter do that" I would decide it with a die roll. Also when playing my 8 int dwarf I would occasionally roll an int check on whether he should use the really smart tactic or the obvious (but not really smart) one.

Real roleplaying is when you give the dwarf with an 8 int a sword of wishing (in a 2E game). You don't want to FUBAR anyone but he's no wish lawyer by any means. It's not as easy as you think!
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Post by Username17 »

Previn wrote:
Mask_De_H wrote:Vaporware and bad ideas promote people tearing it apart (as it should) and Kaelik doesn't need much to go into histrionics. But yeah, that example sounds like it might be the same old "every 2 ability points over 10 you get a +1 bonus" thing.
I'd suspect it's closer to your bonus is your ability score -10 or some such. Going back to our DC13 door breaking, having a str of 15 would be a +2 bonus, which isn't even a 50% chance to break down the door on a roll and only a 12 if you take 10, so I'm not sure why they'd go with automatic success at that point.
They have not said what the exact formula is. It could grow at the same rate as the rising stat (like "modifier equals stat -10") or it could grow at some different value (like "modifier equals stat /2 - 5"). If it's the former, die rolls are completely fucking borked from level 1. If it's the latter, then the late game degenerates into 100% Mother-May-I?

Why? Because they've already confirmed that stats range from 3 to 19 (at the minimum) at chargen. And they've also already confirmed that your "autopass" number does scale at 1:1 as your stat goes up. So if your modifier scales at 1:1 with your stat as well, then people are varying by essentially the entire RNG at level 1. If your modifier scales at the rate of 3e/4e, then by the time you get to Strength 30 and modifier +10 you literally automatically succeed without rolling against a DC of 30 and automatically fail without rolling against a DC of 31.

Based on what they've said they still have a lot of wiggle room. But none of the places they can wiggle to are places I want to go.

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Post by virgil »

The skills are probably there to provide bonuses to make it so you don't auto-fail the DC 31 stuff...which brings us back to 3E, where you go from being vaguely capable compared to everyone else at 1st level, and are only able to participate in your specialties at higher levels.
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Post by ishy »

Let's say that the system is this: you roll 1d20 + your ability score vs a dc.

If the dc is below the ability score needed +1, you obviously don't have to roll.
Trivial tasks are tasks you don't fail at.

Now the fighter (18 str) can easily climb a normal wall (dc 15), but has to roll to be able to climb a wall of molten lava (dc 30).

The wizard (9 str) can roll vs the normal wall and can't just climb the wall of molten lava.

The wizard can in some otherway pass the obstacle though, for example, he can use the roll of the fighter in a sort of 'team skill check' or could fly, or summon a water elemental to cool the wall or whatever your system allows.

Would this be an unworkable system?
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Post by Username17 »

ishy wrote:Let's say that the system is this: you roll 1d20 + your ability score vs a dc.

If the dc is below the ability score needed +1, you obviously don't have to roll.
Trivial tasks are tasks you don't fail at.

Now the fighter (18 str) can easily climb a normal wall (dc 15), but has to roll to be able to climb a wall of molten lava (dc 30).

The wizard (9 str) can roll vs the normal wall and can't just climb the wall of molten lava.

The wizard can in some otherway pass the obstacle though, for example, he can use the roll of the fighter in a sort of 'team skill check' or could fly, or summon a water elemental to cool the wall or whatever your system allows.

Would this be an unworkable system?
That would be an unworkable system because one of the things that is being done is not "the game is delayed until you can bullshit your way up the wall" but is instead "if you can't bullshit your way past the medusa's gaze right now you are fucking dead."

Yes, it is vaguely OK to have environmental hazards that some players can automagically bypass while other characters struggle or just plain can't bypass under their own power. This involves players having the pass the star spotlight around and having to work together to get past hazards in series. But when those hazards are coming to get you, then having one player automatically succeed while another automatically fails just involves the DM killing one of the player characters arbitrarily.

-Username17
Stubbazubba
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Post by Stubbazubba »

Well, I doubt combat works the same way, it's traditionally been a more robust sub-system, specifically for that reason, among others. I think this is just a skill system.
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Post by Username17 »

Stubbazubba wrote:Well, I doubt combat works the same way, it's traditionally been a more robust sub-system, specifically for that reason, among others. I think this is just a skill system.
But they use the same words to describe skill checks as they do to describe saving throws. Diplomancy is a Charisma Test, but saving against fear is also a Charisma test.

They've already confirmed that you make saves with each of your stats, and we've also confirmed that the simple characters don't have separate save progressions on their character sheet. Remember:
Monte Cook wrote:Some choices then—such as whether a character has a long list of skills and feats; or skills, feats, and powers; or just ability scores, hit points, Armor Class, and an attack bonus—are up to the player.
None of those things that are mandatory on your character sheet are a Save Bonus. Your Saves must be 100% derivable from your Attributes just as your skill checks are. So again and still: we either have saving throws completely off the RNG at first level or (inclusive) we have saving throws that are 100% Mother-May-I at high levels. Most probably both, considering that they've also confirmed that players are picking up divergent stat bonuses as they level up.
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