What's with the obsession with "High Level" D&D?

[erik]

Erm, this looks a tad silly. Especially since none of those books fit into the dnd framework...

DnD settings/stories don't fit into the DnD framework since they are not internally consistent with the abilities available. I am just comparing their most impressive magic powahs and such in order to determine what level DnD spells would be necessary to describe an adventuring party comparable to that tier.

It is harder to gauge mundane abilities by level because in stories those are generally determined by plot. Legolas shoots his arrows as effectively as plot needs them to be. So I mostly only consider spells used and maybe foes fought.

[Aryxbez]

Erm, this looks a tad silly. Especially since none of those books fit into the dnd framework... I know you could second-guess salvatore's characters levels. But LOTR? Harry Potter? Dresden Files? C'mon...
What level would Legolas be, with him being a high elf, and being over 2500 years old, if I remember correctly...

I agree, not sure about Dresden Files (never read), but clearly NOT examples of high level characters. They've been repetitively established as being no more than 5th level, hell recall even 2nd edition saying Gandalf = 5th level!

Sounds like some posters that are advocating that should really just check out the link in my sig here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... ople.?pg=1

At the very least, if you're going to make a case for a source that has high level material, then at least provide examples of such capabilities (like could cut a stone wall, self replicating flight, etc).

As Chamomile notes above, games and TV shows where the heroes run around beating up mooks (even if they're MEGA-MOOKS!!!!!!) don't require high level D&D to simulate.

I'm not sure why feel that is, as you go up in levels, once powerful creatures like a Death Giant can now fight in troves. Part of having super Demon hit squads that is part of the awesomeness of High levels. Wasn't too clear to me reading that post as he noted, so if could clarify It'd be appreciated.

[hyzmarca]

Erm, this looks a tad silly. Especially since none of those books fit into the dnd framework... I know you could second-guess salvatore's characters levels. But LOTR? Harry Potter? Dresden Files? C'mon...
What level would Legolas be, with him being a high elf, and being over 2500 years old, if I remember correctly...

I agree, not sure about Dresden Files (never read), but clearly NOT examples of high level characters. They've been repetitively established as being no more than 5th level, hell recall even 2nd edition saying Gandalf = 5th level!

Dresendverse wizards are glass cannons who intentionally limit themselves because of the Laws of Magic (killing with magic, mind control, time travel, summoning things from the Far Realm Outside, and polymorphing other people tend to drive you insane in setting and the Council will chop off your head if they catch you doing any of this) but they do spike into the high levels when they cut loose.

Victor Sells, a low-level sorcerer, was able to pull a scry and die spell pretty easily. Ritually sacrifice one person and the target dies the exact same way no matter the distance between them. Killing one person at a time isn't terribly impressive. Killing them across great distances is.

We also have canonical examples of DF a wizard (McCoy, the Blackstaff, who had the Council's permission to slaughter people wholesale and break every rule in the book) throwing out firepower in the double and triple digit megatons.

Then there is the genocide ritual that Dresden himself used to the end of Changes. The Red Court kidnaps the protagonist's daughter and attempts to use her as a ritual sacrifice in a scry&die spell. The end result is that the Red Court no longer exists. Millions of vampires dead, all over the globe, with a single spell cast by the protagonist. I'm pretty sure that you need epic caster levels to do something like that in D&D.

[Lago PARANOIA]

It totally, totally does. Just about every pre-D&D fantasy story treats magic as a vaguely defined McGuffin that the bad guy uses, whereas the good guys are low-level schmucks who win by breaking the McGuffin. PCs just don't get ultra-powerful McGuffins (with fatal Achilles heels), and that's a good thing.

1.) What the hell is a pre-D&D fantasy story? They're still making D&D fantasy stories right now and will be making more in the future -- with the D&D fantasy logo on them even.

2.) If you meant pre-D&D fantasy story as in some date, it's incredibly stupid to make this claim and not define the date. Apparently we're supposed to use telepathy to figure out if you're talking about Chainmail or D&D 1E or whatever?

3.) Most importantly, who gives a shit if it falls before this imaginary date? What is so sacred about fantasy that only works made in the 1970s count? Conan the Barbarian was a decent movie and still has its share of fans; World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy eclipse it by several orders of magnitude. Only sniveling grognards would whine that their fantasy stories count for examples but newer ones do not. God of War is bigger than the Grey Mouser can ever hope to be and it will be fans of these series who will keep not only this franchise but the fantasy genre in general going. Not stupid neckbeards wanking off to 40 year old stories. Get over it.

"Epic" is not shooting the exhaust hole of the Death Star. "Epic" is having your own Death Star.

Star Wars wouldn't even fall into my definition of what 'epic' was. I said that for something to be high level, it'd have to be:

A. Status-quo changing effects need to be huge and available.

B. The status-quo changing effects would have to be replicable. Not necessarily as in repeating the same stunt, but the idea is that these huge changes are not considered a one-time thing.

I suppose that I should add a third one, too:

C. The change to the status quo is available to a person or proportionately small group of persons who are free to exercise its use. People in Star Trek can exceed the feats done in the WH40K verse, but they need a huge support team and cooperation in order to do so.

So even though a Death Star vastly exceeds the power level of even the best Naruto-verse ninjutsu (which tops out at around continent-wide hypnosis and city-leveling), because it requires a crew of millions of people and is a unique weapon Star Wars is not a high level setting. Individuals in the Narutoverse can do those aforementioned stunts and face far fewer restrictions.

And I still don't know what you're talking about,

Is it really that hard to understand that even though there are certain superpowers that are available in the Harry Potter-verse that are not available in the One Piece-verse (such as time travel and speaking with the dead), that the One Piece-verse is of a much higher level than the Harry Potter-verse?

You can't just judge the avenue, you also have to judge how far you can take the avenues. Otherwise you come to absurd conclusions like Urban Arcana d20 being a higher-power setting than Railgun.

Yeah, but he can't apply that power on any smaller scale. If he wants to contain the damage to just one kingdom, he can't. If he wants to spare civilians or a certain faction, he can't. If he wants to take on a beholder without nuking the city it lives under, he's in for a Hell of a fight, because he will have to actually crawl into the sewers and find the damn thing, and then fight it at close range without the benefit of a colony drop.

The killsat space-nuking isn't enough to make Green Lantern high-level on its own, anymore than slapping a "can kill everyone within a hundred-mile radius, no-save" ability onto the core Fighter somewhere around level 16 would suddenly make him a high-level character. An attack that is of no utility to anyone who is not an omnicidal maniac doesn't actually make you useful in high-level stories.

First of all, you're showing your ignorance here again. Green Lantern, depending on the version and how he's being written, can actually do those things. He normally doesn't because people get bored with overly powerful protagonists and it's harder to think of obstacles that would inconvenience Goku than King Arthur, but you can find stories of him doing shit like creating invincible extradimensional palaces the size of cities for his personal use or creating a loyal army of giant mecha from scratch or whatever the fuck.

Second of all, what the fuck is your thought exercise even supposed to show? That if you pile arbitrary restrictions on protagonists that it'll asymmetrically hinder normally equivalent-in-power-level characters? Uh, sure, buddy. And a D&D wizard can't cast spells if he's being continually poked with a pin or didn't get a good night's rest.

When all else fails, claim victory!

When I said 'thanks for proving me right' that was not me declaring victory, that was me anticipating you'd be sidetracked by the analogy. Which you ended up doing.

[Chamomile]

And I still don't know what you're talking about,

Is it really that hard to understand that even though there are certain superpowers that are available in the Harry Potter-verse that are not available in the One Piece-verse (such as time travel and speaking with the dead), that the One Piece-verse is of a much higher level than the Harry Potter-verse?

Okay, try reading the entire sentence this time and see if you can figure out what you did wrong here.

First of all, you're showing your ignorance here again. Green Lantern, depending on the version and how he's being written, can actually do those things.

I have said this multiple times already, the fact that you can dredge up that one comic where the Green Lantern did something stupidly overpowered that one time does not make the Green Lantern a good example of a high-level character because he stopped doing it. People did not like him when he was high-level. That is an argument against high-level characters being desired by the target demographic.

Every longrunning hero has at least briefly flirted with some kind of high-level power in the course of their run, because at some point someone ran out of ideas and decided to make Spider-Man's origin be a magic spirit animal instead of a radioactive spider. That doesn't mean these plot lines weren't hated for being stupid changes to an established hero who people like better when he is punching people with a giant green fist.

Second of all, what the fuck is your thought exercise even supposed to show?

That high-level characters are rare, usually very obscure, and that there is actually no need whatsoever to include them in a product.

[RadiantPhoenix]

That high-level characters are rare, usually very obscure, and that there is actually no need whatsoever to include them in a product.

I, and various others here, would like to play high level characters. That is a reason to include high levels in the game. What reasons can you come up with not to include high levels?

[hyzmarca]

And I still don't know what you're talking about,

Is it really that hard to understand that even though there are certain superpowers that are available in the Harry Potter-verse that are not available in the One Piece-verse (such as time travel and speaking with the dead), that the One Piece-verse is of a much higher level than the Harry Potter-verse?

Okay, try reading the entire sentence this time and see if you can figure out what you did wrong here.

First of all, you're showing your ignorance here again. Green Lantern, depending on the version and how he's being written, can actually do those things.

I have said this multiple times already, the fact that you can dredge up that one comic where the Green Lantern did something stupidly overpowered that one time does not make the Green Lantern a good example of a high-level character because he stopped doing it. People did not like him when he was high-level. That is an argument against high-level characters being desired by the target demographic.

Every longrunning hero has at least briefly flirted with some kind of high-level power in the course of their run, because at some point someone ran out of ideas and decided to make Spider-Man's origin be a magic spirit animal instead of a radioactive spider. That doesn't mean these plot lines weren't hated for being stupid changes to an established hero who people like better when he is punching people with a giant green fist.

Second of all, what the fuck is your thought exercise even supposed to show?

That high-level characters are rare, usually very obscure, and that there is actually no need whatsoever to include them in a product.

I don't think you really understand what the Green Lanterns Corps is. They were, from the very beginning, conceptualized as space cops who kept the peace throughout the entire universe. There are 3600 of them. Each one is assigned a sector.

There are over 100 billion galaxies in the universe with more than 300 sextillion star systems. The Green Lantern is responsible for patrolling and policing 1/3600th of it. That's more than 27 million galaxies with more than 8 sextillion star systems policed by exactly one person.

That was his job from the very first comic. There is no power creep there.

The sheer scale of that duty require a certain high-level powers that he's explicitly shown to have whenever the comic deals with space-based stories. Its just that he doesn't get off Earth very often because everything important in the entire universe happens here.

And that's never really changed. Over the course of the comics there have always been 3600 Green Lanterns policing the entire universe. Recently, that number has been doubled, but the task is no less daunting and no less high-level.

This isn't one comic where he does something stupidly high level. It's the entire character concept from day one. He's a freaking Lensman ripoff in a green costume, always and forever, with the power level to back it up when shit gets real.

(Well, except Alan Scott, but Alan Scott doesn't count).

Of course, a discussion of high level DC characters can't really be complete without Superman. His power level does fluctuate, but its generally held that he could slaughter pretty much everyone if he wasn't holding back all the time.

But if we go to Marvel we can throw out guys like the Silver Surfer, who is by no means obscure. The Power Cosmic can do practically anything and that's never really changed throughout the Surfer's career. Or classic Doctor Strange, who is arguably stronger than the Surfer.

[Chamomile]

I, and various others here, would like to play high level characters. That is a reason to include high levels in the game. What reasons can you come up with not to include high levels?

If you can sustain an entire product line based off of just your purchases, that's a decent point. Otherwise, it's kind of important to know what people in general and not just the Den want to buy. The source material does not, generally, support this stuff.

The sheer scale of that duty require a certain high-level powers that he's explicitly shown to have whenever the comic deals with space-based stories.

And which he is implicitly shown not to have whenever the comic deals with anything else, ever. This whole discussion has never been about whether or not certain character concepts are hypothetically capable of high-level stories, but rather how prevalent actual high-level stories are in the actual source material. How often does Green Lantern actually use something more impressive than a giant green fist?

[RadiantPhoenix]

And which he is implicitly shown not to have whenever the comic deals with anything else, ever. This whole discussion has never been about whether or not certain character concepts are hypothetically capable of high-level stories, but rather how prevalent actual high-level stories are in the actual source material. How often does Green Lantern actually use something more impressive than a giant green fist?

Being incapable of even beginning to do what is necessary to protect 1/3600 of the universe violates his character concept, just as surely as surely as an unironic, "Thief," who is incapable of pilfering anything more valuable than an onion is in violation of their character concept.

[Chamomile]

Being incapable of even beginning to do what is necessary to protect 1/3600 of the universe violates his character concept,

Then he violates his character concept every time his solution to a problem is "giant green fist" instead of "massive army of giant green mechs." It's really not my fault that DC writers blatantly ignore the capabilities of the Green Lantern so that they can make him the protagonist of mid-level plots all the time.

[Pedantic]

Going back to Way of Kings, I think the somewhat obscured meta-plot running between all of Sanderson's works probably counts.

You've got humans who take on god-powers, create magic systems simply by being present and then play out everything from the creation of mankind to destroying entire planets while locked in a barely fathomable political struggle.

Admittely, the stories aren't generally directly about them, but there is the outline of a narrative concerning them that can be drawn from the hints scattered through Sanderson's books, particular the letter at the chapterheads in Way of Kings and what happens to Sazed in The Final Empire.

[tzor]

What the hell is a pre-D&D fantasy story?

There are fundamental tropes that wound up in many fantasy writers as a direct result of Gygax's interpertation of Tolkein's world and the general impact of non-linear level advanceent in a campaign world, but I don't thnk that is what is being talked about here.

[ishy]

Being incapable of even beginning to do what is necessary to protect 1/3600 of the universe violates his character concept,

Then he violates his character concept every time his solution to a problem is "giant green fist" instead of "massive army of giant green mechs." It's really not my fault that DC writers blatantly ignore the capabilities of the Green Lantern so that they can make him the protagonist of mid-level plots all the time.

Isn't that the whole problem with loads of stories? That people only have the power that the current plots allows them to have? You can't model that at all in any game though.
Not to mention many powers that would abusable except the people in game are in stories so they just don't 'abuse' their powers.

If I wrote a story in 3.5 I could make the monk sound as awesome as a wizard. We all know the game mechanics support a different story, but because I control the story, I can just make the wizard forget about anything effective when I don't want her to be effective.

[tzor]

It's really not my fault that DC writers blatantly ignore the capabilities of the Green Lantern so that they can make him the protagonist of mid-level plots all the time.

It's more complicated than that. Non linear advancement cannot be contained in a linear mindset. DC has always had a problem with linear thinking in its plot lines. More power just means a bigger gun (or a stronger force). Green Lantern is one example of a non linear power person, it's not that he has power but he has exceptionally versitile power. The writers don't want to handle that level of complexity so they deliberately ignore it.

If you understand the implication of advancements like that of Greeen Lantern it is still possible to put him in a mid-level plot by simply making it not just the protagonist against the villian, but the protagonist against the villian in spite of the protagonist. That is you exploit the potential weaknesses of the character (not just physical but moral, and emotional) so that the obvious solutions are not in the character's nature in this situation and the character needs to find an alternative not obvious solution to the prolem (which once found makes the problem again trivial).

Of course that doesn't work in a role playing game, but actual stories work at a different level anyway. Sherlock Holmes is fun to read but a bitch to play.

[Kaelik]

If you can sustain an entire product line based off of just your purchases, that's a decent point. Otherwise, it's kind of important to know what people in general and not just the Den want to buy. The source material does not, generally, support this stuff.

Why do you think that what good Fantasy Authors feel like writing about is indicative of what people want to play in RPGs?

I don't want my Sci-Fi game to be all about really hoping I get lucky enough to eat a specific fruit by accident, and then focusing on Xantos Gambitting people after that just because I like Larry Niven books.

I also don't like playing shitty no nothings in a cruel world even though I like Song of Ice and Fire.

Instead, maybe you could look at what RPG players ask for in their RPG construction, and what factors of an RPG result in it selling well, vs not.

Oh hey, most people ask for high level cosmic avengers, and the best selling RPG gave high level cosmic avengers, and when high level cosmic avengers was replaced with no real progression, heroes forever, people complained that there was no real progress from leveling, and the game tanked.

Oh shit, I guess what most people actually want is cosmic adventurers and you are completely wrong in every respect.

[Korwin]

Second of all, what the fuck is your thought exercise even supposed to show?

That high-level characters are rare, usually very obscure, and that there is actually no need whatsoever to include them in a product.

My thesis, someone (Chamomile?) should read more good (ie. consistent) fantasy books.

[name_here]

Seriously? Codex Alera is low level? [/spoiler]

Your kidding does that shit really happen? Sounds hysterical.

Oh yeah, all of that stuff happens.

Way Of Kings: notable magical actions performed by the presumptive main villain or his opposite numbers:

-Creation of massive magical storms that violate all known principles of meteorology and require no active intervention to maintain them
-Creation of an ecosystem that depends on said storms
-Structuring the geography of a planet to suit them
-Creation of the Shardblades and Shardplate, which are definitely powerful enough to count as artifacts
-Interplanetary travel
-Precog limited only by the capacity of their peers to disrupt it via their own precog
-Killing said peers
-Being able to force guys who do the aforementioned things to play Mother May I.

Basically, Sanderson's meta-setting has these things called Shards(not to be confused with the magic items of the same name found in The Way Of Kings) which individual humans can become associated with. They become immortal and can basically do whatever the fuck they want, unless one of the others blocks them. They turned hunks of rock into all the planets seen so far when they agreed with each other. And even when they're in a vetoing duel, they can still grant outlandish powers to human agents who have some sort of connection to them.

And yes, there have been main characters who used said powers.

[virgil]

I have said this multiple times already, the fact that you can dredge up that one comic where the Green Lantern did something stupidly overpowered that one time does not make the Green Lantern a good example of a high-level character because he stopped doing it. People did not like him when he was high-level. That is an argument against high-level characters being desired by the target demographic.

I don't know where you're getting this thought. I and many others I know, and is stated in the comics, that he's in the same league as Superman (who even you admit is potentially high-level) AND he travels/protects galactic sectors while Boy Blue guards Metropolis. Many of the most popular Green Lantern stories are the ones where they go beyond green fists.

What is your definition of obscure? We've given examples that have won huge awards, icons and shapers of the industry itself. What is your definition of rare? Each of the above examples have derivatives, and then people provided even more original works/series that are in the high-level range.

[Chamomile]

Isn't that the whole problem with loads of stories? That people only have the power that the current plots allows them to have? You can't model that at all in any game though.

Uh, sure, but that doesn't actually change the fact that high-level stories just don't crop up that often.

and when high level cosmic avengers was replaced with no real progression, heroes forever, people complained that there was no real progress from leveling

And back when high level cosmic avengers were still in the game people complained that the game was broken because you were expected to be a high level cosmic avenger instead of a dungeon crawler.

What is your definition of obscure?

It's obscure if the average member of your target audience isn't likely to be familiar with it. Most D&D players know who the Green Lantern is, of course, but how many of them immediately think of making giant palaces out of green energy instead of the giant green fist that regularly shows up on his covers? How many D&D players know what Doctor Strange's capabilities are? How many D&D players even know who Sentry is?

What is your definition of rare?

If 95% of Green Lantern's stories are mid-level (and blatantly ignore his high-level capabilities), the occasional high-level plot is too rare to make much difference.

[virgil]

It's obscure if the average member of your target audience isn't likely to be familiar with it. Most D&D players know who the Green Lantern is, of course, but how many of them immediately think of making giant palaces out of green energy instead of the giant green fist that regularly shows up on his covers? How many D&D players know what Doctor Strange's capabilities are? How many D&D players even know who Sentry is?

Firstly, your Green Lantern question is anecdotal as fvck. ALL of the people I know who've heard of the Green Lantern first think of him as the guy who can instantly make an army, contain exploding stars, and/or travelling to other planets with ease. So what if a majority are mid-level? By Sturgeon's Law, 90% of everything is crap, but that doesn't mean we must dismiss the remaining 10%.

How many have heard of Sandman, a comic as big as Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, and ended up in Entertainment Weekly's Top 100 books? How many know about Doctor Who, the longest running sci-fi show in the world and an icon of British culture? How many know of Superman (time-travel powers and all)? How many know of Dragonball Z (you yourself admitted as a high-level setting), the first image many Americans had when hearing the word 'anime' for years? How many know of M:tG, a game many D&D players have claimed will overtake their hobby (before WoW took its place)? Screw your vague obscurity claim, because those are all high-level stories which are fixtures in the public consciousness.

[Kaelik]

And back when high level cosmic avengers were still in the game people complained that the game was broken because you were expected to be a high level cosmic avenger instead of a dungeon crawler.

But your explicit argument is that we should only include high level gameplay if it is popular.

The most popular RPG of all time is the RPG that had the most high level gameplay.

It doesn't matter what you personally whined about in 3e. The fact is, High level gameplay = best selling TTRPG ever. No high level gameplay = pile of shit everyone hates.

So by the argument from popularity you started, high level gameplay is a must.

It's fine that you personally don't want it, but you personally can't support a product line. The average gamer empirically wants high level gameplay.

[Chamomile]

-snip-

Wow, that's the most hilariously bad seriously-are-you-trolling kind of post I've seen in a while. Statistics do not work that way. You'd only have a point if there were another game on the market that was exactly the same as 3.5e except for lacking high levels, and by exactly the same I mean released at the same time and with the same marketing and the same brand power and everything, and did not do as well.

@Virgil: We're now back to the problem that exactly one of your examples is fantasy, and that's M:tG, which doesn't count as a high-level story because it has no stories. So, yes, most of this thread has been about a subject which is actually a moot point, but the outcome of this argument will have no impact on anything, ever, so what the Hell.

[RadiantPhoenix]

@Virgil: We're now back to the problem that exactly one of your examples is fantasy, and that's M:tG, which doesn't count as a high-level story because it has no stories.

Umm, bullshit.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s?store=b ... +gathering

[virgil]

Sandman isn't fantasy, wtf?

[Chamomile]

Umm, bullshit.

Great, but you can't use the popularity of the game to defend the stories found in the books, else my entire answer to the Green Lantern problem could've just been "everyone hated that movie."

Sandman isn't fantasy, wtf?

One example doesn't really provide a powerful basis for saying that the source material supports something, nor does an example written before the birth of half our new blood provide much basis for it being popular amongst the target demographic.