What's with the obsession with "High Level" D&D?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:34 am

Chamomile wrote:
Kaelik wrote:-snip-
Wow, that's the most hilariously bad seriously-are-you-trolling kind of post I've seen in a while. Statistics do not work that way. You'd only have a point if there were another game on the market that was exactly the same as 3.5e except for lacking high levels, and by exactly the same I mean released at the same time and with the same marketing and the same brand power and everything, and did not do as well.

@Virgil: We're now back to the problem that exactly one of your examples is fantasy, and that's M:tG, which doesn't count as a high-level story because it has no stories. So, yes, most of this thread has been about a subject which is actually a moot point, but the outcome of this argument will have no impact on anything, ever, so what the Hell.

By the planets are you a simpering whining child. Look, we like you enough because you've learned to be slightly more critical of the pap you were once fed, and won't hit you or call you mean names (unless you do actually heinous things; like lie uproariously, slander maliciously or be willing to further the cause of Evil; see Elennsar, Swordslinger and Tzor).

However, we don't like when you make stupid assumptions out of no where.

We know that you're own storytelling has a while to go; if not you wouldn't be asking for the stories that have been under your nose since you were first able to read a comic book or watch a television show.

Which is why we're willing to give you pointers, examples and suggestions on where to do your own research.

Unfortunately, while we can bring you to water, if you don't drink, you won't ever quench your burning thirst.

Also, side note, the Magic The Gathering card sets all have their own stories, that are separate or linked to other sets of cards and help shape the cards that are written.

Urza, the Phyrexians, the Anaba, the Sorcerers of the Island mage guilds, Chainer, Yogmoth, the Myrr, the Slivers, the Sengir clan.... the entire series is full of giant plan-dimensional threats; eventually going so far as to have Lovecraftian horrors with Lovecraftian costs and powers (with art that is actually acceptable to describe such creatures).

Seriously, players at a game of magic might be expected to face down the a destroyer of universes, if that's not high level, I have no idea what is anyone's definition of high level any more.

ugh, edits

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:59 am

JE, two things.

One, your entire rant has absolutely nothing to do with what we're actually talking about, because this conversation was never about whether or not those high-level fantasy stories that exist are good but rather whether they are prevalent enough in the source material that properly emulating it would require the capability to tell high-level stories.

Two, while I'm not willing to go trawling through the archives to find it right now, Magic's design blog explicitly mentioned that they moved away from trying to tell stories with their sets a long time ago, because the format was terrible at it and no one cared anyway. What they do now is try to have a strong theme and setting without really telling any stories at all.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:42 am

Chamomile wrote: because this conversation was never about whether or not those high-level fantasy stories that exist are good but rather whether they are prevalent enough in the source material that properly emulating it would require the capability to tell high-level stories.

If they dont need to be good then there are the books of Magic the Gathering.
I'll quote RadiantPhoenix:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s?store=b ... +gathering

To be honest, only read the first few. Dont know if they are good or not.

But since you dont know them anyway or they all are obscure, how about you tell us about low-power level fantasy source material?
And we will then claim obscurity.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:12 am

Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia remain well-known (albeit mostly thanks to the recent movie franchises), Harry Potter was the last society-wide phenomenon and virtually everyone is familiar with it on some level, A Song of Ice and Fire has been very popular lately, Eragon is awful and no mistake but is also apparently pretty popular, the Dragonriders of Pern remains a classic, and though the waves made by His Dark Materials have mostly passed but they were fairly sizable when they were there.

Discworld is still very popular and stopped being a parody so much as a proper fantasy setting that happens to have lots of humor some time ago, I've been warned off it by friends but the Wheel of Time is generally popular, Garth Nix's Abhorsen series crops up a lot, the Mistborn trilogy is basically the reason anyone cares about Brandon Sanderson, the Wizard of Earthsea is still popular, Shannara seems to get lots of shelf space, the Dresden Files and Anita Blake are both (arguably, in the latter case) modern fantasy, and some people still read the original Conan novels. Greek myths and the bones of the Arthurian myths remain well-known despite not having had a whole lot of really popular new fiction attached to them in a while.

In cinema we've mostly got movie-adaptations of the above, but there's also Beowulf and sort-of Pirates of the Caribbean (not really a fantasy setting unto itself, but contains lots of elements easily ported into one) and Underworld (similar), as well as the occasional eastern fantasy like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and the Forbidden Kingdom. There's also been Alice in Wonderland and Sorcerer's Apprentice, but I probably remember those only because they're so recent.

I don't watch much television (making schedules work out for business is hard enough), but Avatar: The Last Airbender needs a mention.

Video games are dominated by Warcraft (so much by Warcraft) and Final Fantasy. Guild Wars has a setting that is at once very similar to and very distinct from Lord of the Rings, the Elder Scrolls series is still going strong as is the Legend of Zelda, Assassin's Creed is not actually fantasy but contains elements that would be at home in certain fantastic settings, and of course stock Lord of the Rings rip-offs (including actual licensed Lord of the Rings games) are too numerous to count.

Worth noting that almost every single book will have had far less impact on the target demographic than every other category.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and my family has been nuts about Merlin lately, which is probably bigger in the UK than here in the States.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:39 am

Chamomile wrote:Two, while I'm not willing to go trawling through the archives to find it right now, Magic's design blog explicitly mentioned that they moved away from trying to tell stories with their sets a long time ago, because the format was terrible at it and no one cared anyway. What they do now is try to have a strong theme and setting without really telling any stories at all.

UR RONG.
While I'm also not willing to go trawling through the archives*, I remember that blog post. It talked about people not liking a single, multiple-set-spanning arc, and M:tG reverting to separate worlds and standalone stories.

(And then planeswalker cards appeared, but by that time I had stopped following M:tG at all and only became aware of that thing because 1) the supposed switch from 1st person to 3rd person narrative made news and 2) that blue dude was EVERYWHERE.)

*I loved that arc and quit M:TG when keeping up with releases minus the arc became too costly (and they killed my favorite character, the bastards). Since no one I played with knew English well enough to read fucking flavor text, I assumed the storyline was liked by English-speaking fans just as much. So I'm not talking out of my ass, I do actually remember that post because it was a wtf moment.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:56 am

Chamomile wrote:Lord of the Rings and the

Depending if you only count the 3 LotR books or the rest too, you can count it into the high power setting

Chronicles of Narnia remain well-known (albeit mostly thanks to the recent movie franchises)

What do I remember from the books? Dimensional travel, Resourrection, Time manipulation, Artifacts.
Shure not actively used by the protagonists/players. Sounds like a MTP-Setting.

, Harry Potter was the last society-wide phenomenon and virtually everyone is familiar with it on some level,

Are you shitting me? The BBEG is a Lich! Every Adult Wizard can teleport! etc.

A Song of Ice and Fire has been very popular lately,

Dragons. People coming back from the Dead. And undead menance in the North.

Eragon is awful and no mistake but is also apparently pretty popular,

If Eragon is not an example of high level… One guy slaying armies.

the Dragonriders of Pern remains a classic,

example of SF…

and though the waves made by His Dark Materials have mostly passed but they were fairly sizable when they were there.

Not shure if I remember the correct series = Golden Compass?

Discworld is still very popular and stopped being a parody so much as a proper fantasy setting that happens to have lots of humor some time ago,

and that is low level how?

I've been warned off it by friends but the Wheel of Time is generally popular,

That was one of our examples of high level…

Garth Nix's Abhorsen series crops up a lot,

Finally on I don’t know, can I call this one obscure?

the Mistborn trilogy is basically the reason anyone cares about Brandon Sanderson,

And an example of high level

the Wizard of Earthsea is still popular,

Don’t really remember much of that one…

Shannara seems to get lots of shelf space,

High-level

the Dresden Files

High Level.

and Anita Blake are

Anita Blake is not porn? Should I try it?

both (arguably, in the latter case) modern fantasy, and some people still read the original Conan novels.

By original you mean the ones by Robert E. Howard?
Going by the RPG, there are a few high-level options there (for the wizard-class equivalent)

Greek myths and the bones of the Arthurian myths remain well-known despite not having had a whole lot of really popular new fiction attached to them in a while.

Some (semi) new (2006):
Orphan of Chaos
Fugitives of Chaos
Titans of Chaos

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:28 pm

Korwin wrote:Depending if you only count the 3 LotR books or the rest too, you can count it into the high power setting

No one's really familiar with anything outside of the main trilogy and the Hobbit.

What do I remember from the books? Dimensional travel, Resourrection, Time manipulation, Artifacts.
Shure not actively used by the protagonists/players. Sounds like a MTP-Setting.

There is this game the Den loves to play where whenever someone is talking about whether or not something is supported in the source material, they start examining the non-game work as though it were an actual game. The point of these discussions is not, has never been, and will never be to create another DM of the Rings. The point is that the stories actually told by the Chronicles of Narnia are not high-level, because the only guy who ever uses any high-level effects is the Jesus lion. Everyone else is, like, level two.

Are you shitting me? The BBEG is a Lich! Every Adult Wizard can teleport! etc.

And every adult wizard, including the BBEG, is actually really, very vulnerable to a small team of well-trained and well-informed muggle soldiers. Harry Potter doesn't breach high-level by any definition given in this thread.

Dragons. People coming back from the Dead. And undead menance in the North.

A Song of Ice and Fire is explicitly noted for major characters being killed off by mundane threats.

If Eragon is not an example of high level… One guy slaying armies.

It is (to my understanding) an example of a single character's high-level abilities being used as an unstoppable I Win button, which does not make it a high-level plot. Also, that single character is the protagonist, which is terrible literature, and the power level fluctuations are completely inconsistent.

example of SF…

It's usually listed as fantasy because dragons. Go figure.

Not shure if I remember the correct series = Golden Compass?

Yes, and bugger all, do not try to convince me that a story where the BBEG is directly overcome by a pair of what amounts to office workers is high level.

and that is low level how?

Even going by political influence wielded, Samuel Vimes and company are never more than mid-level.

That was one of our examples of high level…

Star Wars was also one of your examples of high level. I'm waiting for someone to actually back that up because your examples of high level so far have been at least 3/4s idiotic.

And an example of high level

No, Mistborn is not high-level. Even by the last book, the conquest of individual cities is a big deal.

Don’t really remember much of that one…

Some guy makes a shadow of himself and it goes on a killing spree, so he chases it down to stop it. Interesting world, boring plot.

High-level

Again, back this up. I'm not actually just going to believe you, particularly when you're trying to claim that Narnia counts as high-level because there's a Jesus lion in the background who has infinite power, keeping in mind that there is an actual Jesus with infinite power in the background of the Arthurian mythos.

Anita Blake is not porn? Should I try it?

Oh, no, it's porn. It's just modern fantasy porn.

By original you mean the ones by Robert E. Howard?
Going by the RPG, there are a few high-level options there (for the wizard-class equivalent)

The wizards were not the protagonists of their stories. Conan, repeatedly determined to be no more than level 5, is. Also, I haven't seen the RPG, but if it's accurate to the source material I don't think wizards will be actually high-level either.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:44 pm

Chamomile wrote: And every adult wizard, including the BBEG, is actually really, very vulnerable to a small team of well-trained and well-informed muggle soldiers.

Nope. Harry Potter is one of those settings which only seems low-power, because the author doesn't care about her metaphysics, so various magics of the week usually get forgotten the next week, or never used except in very isolated cases, even if they are absurdly powerful, like time manipulation or destiny control. A PC band of wizards with a transparent access to observed Potterverse powers can take over the world in a day, despite being glass cannons. Muggles are complete nonthreats because they can't see wizards, can't enter wizard places and can't protect themselves from mind alteration and domination (frankly, it is not clear, why no one in Potterverse ever tried to form an invincible wizard force by using a pyramid of mind control).

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:44 pm

[quote="Chamomile]No, Mistborn is not high-level. Even by the last book, the conquest of individual cities is a big deal.[/quote]

You cannot be serious.

Vin turns into a god, flattens a city, sets half the planet on fire, generates a tidal wave, and then kills another god, at which point Sazed turns into a double-strength god and fixes everything.

There, popular series, main characters doing high level shit.

EDIT: Wheel of Time:

Rand and like twenty other people completely slaughter thousands of monsters in one fight without using an artifact. He uses an artifact to retroactively destroy an entire palace several hours ago. A major portion of the channling population can make unlimited range portals.

Dresden Files:

Dresden himself summons up powerful magic entities who dictate planetary weather. A major supporting character generates a megaton-range blast by yanking a satalite out of orbit. He later kills two hundred people by waving his staff. Another one goes toe-to-toe with an evil fear spirit shapeshifter that eats magic and wins. Another creature of the same type was beaten in backstory by a nuke because a dude hardcore enough that he once decided getting in a fight with a zombie T-rex was a good idea could not figure out how else to take him.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:37 pm

Chamomile wrote:
Sandman isn't fantasy, wtf?
One example doesn't really provide a powerful basis for saying that the source material supports something, nor does an example written before the birth of half our new blood provide much basis for it being popular amongst the target demographic.

Move goalposts much? Your response to being so totally wrong, dismissing Sandman as not fantasy, is to talk about how recent it is? This continual floccinaucinihilipilification has gotten ridiculous.

Know what? Forget this. Go suck a barrel of cocks

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:14 pm

Actually, is there any reason to continue this thread? You cannot argue with someone who has made an argument from ignorance and/or No True Scotsmanned everything after refusing to refine his definitions when asked.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:31 pm

MTG has an ongoing metaplot. Here is the wiki article talking about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The ... storylines

From sentance 1. "an intricate storyline underlies the cards released in each expansion"

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:13 pm

virgil wrote:floccinaucinihilipilification

I had forgotten how to spell that word. Thanks!

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:51 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Actually, is there any reason to continue this thread? You cannot argue with someone who has made an argument from ignorance and/or No True Scotsmanned everything after refusing to refine his definitions when asked.

Okay, now that's been established. Chamomile, or w/e their name is can't help but Ellensar on the issue of "what sort of level play they want"; just as Elennsar couldn't decide on which probabilty system he wanted (at all, wanting contradicory systems).

All further statments regarding flavour and power level that come out of you no longer matter since you have no fucking clue what you fucking want.

When you do, that would be awesome. I reccomend revisiting youur childhood media, while inebriated; and again while sober; and take notes both times.

Seriously, if it's cartoon, you're going to have to to back to them and find out what you liked about them; and how they could be used to develop game systems that would replicate said systems.

Myself, I've spent the lst few years revisiting my remembered television series and films to get clues on what sorts of combats I want to have occur in games I run or create. I feel like I'm always scraping the surface, but every now and then I get a clue (colour code everything, have everything possible linked to imagery; keep imagery and mechanics related).

So, the 90's Conan series, 1950's medieval sword-fighting flicks, transformers, thundercats, transformers, the 300~ odd ep of 84' He-Man, classic sword fights from films (princes bride is... honestly boring as a fight); as well as reading into gigs and gigs of Heavy Metal (honestly, nothing out of north america compares with HM when it comes to linear art).

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:38 am

FatR wrote:Harry Potter is one of those settings which only seems low-power, because the author doesn't care about her metaphysics, so various magics of the week usually get forgotten the next week,

Thus resulting in mid-level plots, yes.

Move goalposts much?

Not especially. I've mentioned this several times going back pretty much to when this debate has started that this has never been about whether or not these things exist at all but whether or not they are actually any kind of prevalent, and no, one example which most of the target audience will not be familiar with does not a prevalence make.

I haven't finished the Mistborn trilogy and have been warned off Wheel of Time. Now that someone's (finally) actually mentioned the high-level effects in the stories, I will concede they are high-level.

Dresden Files seems more along the lines of very occasionally using high-level effects to cap off mid-level plots.

JE continues to miss the point of the conversation altogether. If it were about my preferences, I would've just said "I, personally, don't like high-level plots" and no one really could've argued with that.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:58 am

Chamomile wrote:I haven't finished the Mistborn trilogy and have been warned off Wheel of Time. Now that someone's (finally) actually mentioned the high-level effects in the stories, I will concede they are high-level.

Right, we all know that you are extremely ignorant of stories in general, but that's still your problem not ours.

We understand that you've never read actual Green Latern comics, never heard of Sandman, never read The Silmarillion, never read Wheel of Time, never read the second or third book of Mistborn, Don't remember 90% of the spells from Harry Potter (and let's face it, probably only watched the movies), never read a single Dresden book, never read Magician's Nephew, haven't read any of the Wizard or God themed Discworld books, read one Shanara book once that happened to be the one with the kids who use artifacts instead of the adults who create them when they aren't blowing up the world.

We really do believe you when you tell us you are completely ignorant of all the stories you are citing.

What we don't understand is why you think your ignorance counts in your favor. These are high level plots that exist and are popular. Just because you personally don't know about them doesn't change that lots of other people do, and those people are likely to play TTRPGs.

For example, The Silmarillion is way less popular than LOTR. But it still sold more copies in the year it was released than the total number of 4e books ever sold. So guess what, even though it's not as popular, it's still popular enough that probably the vast majority of people who are ever going to play D&D have read it.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:43 pm

Chamomile wrote:I've mentioned this several times going back pretty much to when this debate has started that this has never been about whether or not these things exist at all but whether or not they are actually any kind of prevalent, and no, one example which most of the target audience will not be familiar with does not a prevalence make.

Original Challenge.

Chamomile wrote:Okay, give me any piece of fantasy fiction that has ever existed, up to and including myths, that supports high-level D&D storytelling but is not directly based off of a D&D setting.

Emphasis yours.

This is the very definition of moving goalposts.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:13 pm

I was looking up Mayan myths a while ago since I intended on writing a story where one character was many, many thousands of years old and possibly the inspiration for some american myths. Characters certainly do plenty of "high level" stuff in most any myth though really.

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:19 pm

Are there any examples of low or mid-level D&D in literature then? The original Conans? Looking for a little perspective to contrast the high level examples.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:16 am

King Arthur

The Iliad and the Odyssey

Fahfrd and the Grey Mouser

Pretty much any Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance book ever written

Song of Ice and Fire

Anything by Joe Abercrombie

The Steel Remains

The Briar King series

The Lies of Locke Lamora

Name of the Wind

The Witcher books

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:53 am

Just a point about Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser: If the world of Leiber had been a D&D campaign, Leiber would have been the most revilled DM of all of history. (He would have made Gygax seem a nice DM.) High level NPC dominated the plot. Magic items were handed and taken away by the whims of hte high level NPCs. Fafhrd and Mouser really never get to mid level. I would argue that most of the worst of the DM abuses comes from thinking "fantasy" is the way Leiber wrote his stories.

So if you take out the DM abuses; the one shot magic items given and then taken away; the really bizzare magical effects that are mere plot devices used on the characters and not by the characters, then Fafhrd and Mouser are not only barely low level, they are two classes that are the least desired these days (a figthter and a basic fighter / thief).

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:33 am

Going back to Mistborn. Anyone who red the Mistborn RPG?
(i'm still reading, didn't get to the Magic chapter, but I dont belive them its balanced with non-magic like they claimed in the Char Generation chapter)

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:36 am

Mistborn seems like it could be interesting, although you might want to do a system where everyone has a couple characters because the really passive stuff like the dudes who hide other dudes or the dudes who sense other dudes probably doesn't make for a great PC the way the dudes who hurl shurikens around with their minds do.

Also, do you know if they just wrote up Allomancy, or if they instead also included Feruchemy and Hemalurgy?

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:44 am

All three are in (you can Play an Mistborn, Mistling, both Feruchemy versions and an chapechanger), rules for combined allomancy and Feruchemy like in 'Alloy of Law' will be in an suplement.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:47 am

I haven't read Alloy of Law yet, that sounds cool.