Efforts for naught

[virgil]

http://www.oldschoolhack.net/osh-docs/O ... v1beta.pdf

I haven't looked at it with great depth, but 'oly moley, this thing makes a mockery of all my OSR work with Parabellum. It seems to meet all of my goals with much greater finesse and quality.

[hogarth]

I looked at it after it won an ENnie. It didn't really seem any better or worse than Basic D&D. I guess it's much shorter, which might be an advantage, depending on what you're looking for.

[virgil]

The round and arena structure are much cleaner and more solid than Basic D&D, and follow a paradigm close to my initial work with phases and zones.

[Ancient History]

I looked at it after it won an ENnie. It didn't really seem any better or worse than Basic D&D. I guess it's much shorter, which might be an advantage, depending on what you're looking for.

The ENnies are probably the most worthless, meaningless awards given in gaming. The number of truly shit products that have won an ENnie is staggering. It's not even political, it's like all of the ENworld forums cry out in one voice for whatever the hell they're fapping to this year.

[virgil]

I personally don't care about the ENnies. I only found this system because of a random link click through the Free RPG Blog, and took a lark on reading it...and found a much superior system than anything I was making.

You guys ever run into that?

[hogarth]

I've had the case where I've mulled over a vague idea and that I've later seen it implemented well. That's sort of the same thing.

With regards to the arenas, they're too vague to really praise or criticize. There's a big heaping helping of Magical Tea Party about the whole thing (not that there's anything wrong with that).

[Neurosis]

http://www.oldschoolhack.net/osh-docs/O ... v1beta.pdf

I haven't looked at it with great depth, but 'oly moley, this thing makes a mockery of all my OSR work with Parabellum. It seems to meet all of my goals with much greater finesse and quality.

I'm not too well versed in either of the specific things you just mentioned, but the general phenomenon you're describing I know well.

I personally don't care about the ENnies. I only found this system because of a random link click through the Free RPG Blog, and took a lark on reading it...and found a much superior system than anything I was making.

You guys ever run into that?

God yes.

God it sucks.

Happened to me recently with the movie Chronicle, which is essentially the same story I've been trying to tell unsuccessfully in various formats for about 12 years...except they actually finished it and they did it much better and very publicly and visibly, and no one will believe me now when I say "I have been writing that exact idea since the 2000".

[DSMatticus]

Chronicle is a movie I feel like I had heard of before Chronicle. I could not point out what specifically gave me that impression, but it seemed a lot like the 'idea' of Chronicle had been around forever and someone finally took the general story and made a movie of it. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just saying I'm not surprised that something remarkably similar was floating around in your (or a bunch of other people's) head for a long time before it actually came about.

[Maxus]

It made me think of Akira, mixed with some Cloverfield. In fact, I was waiting on the giant pulsating expanding mass of flesh to show up.

It's superhero origin story. The fact that it takes you a long, long while to realize this is a testament to the execution.

[Neurosis]

It wears its influences on its sleeves, and Akira is a HUGE one of them, and the most super obvious. There are lots of less obvious influences, though.

Chronicle is less about original ideas, honestly, and more about "holy shit fucking great execution" (IMHO anyway): on an originality scale it scores pretty poorly.

[hogarth]

With regards to the arenas, they're too vague to really praise or criticize. There's a big heaping helping of Magical Tea Party about the whole thing (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Actually, upon further thought there's enough to criticize.

It sounds boring, because you're supposed to get so excited by +2 bonuses that you give up a turn, but in practice you're almost always better off attacking with either a ranged weapon (if you're in an adjacent arena) or a heavy weapon (if you're in the same arena), using your other hand for a shield. Many of the class abilities are basically for flavour, and you're allowed to cherry-pick the actual useful ones, so most of your characters will end up looking almost identical.

Yawn.

[Kaelik]

Pretty sure during the climactic thingy, one guy in the audience was shouting TETSUO!

[Mask_De_H]

With regards to the arenas, they're too vague to really praise or criticize. There's a big heaping helping of Magical Tea Party about the whole thing (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Actually, upon further thought there's enough to criticize.

It sounds boring, because you're supposed to get so excited by +2 bonuses that you give up a turn, but in practice you're almost always better off attacking with either a ranged weapon (if you're in an adjacent arena) or a heavy weapon (if you're in the same arena), using your other hand for a shield. Many of the class abilities are basically for flavour, and you're allowed to cherry-pick the actual useful ones, so most of your characters will end up looking almost identical.

Yawn.

I noticed that too, when stumbling upon the Red Box Hack SRD. If there was a better incentive to move (like regaining powers or a sort of The Edge mechanic) and if the arenas were more strongly defined like with Really Big Squares or FATE then that might not be the case. Most every class ability being straight flavor was kind of shitty, too.

I do like their Action Point economy (but I don't like them sticking in a weird 4e style power schedule and then obviating it with said Action Point economy) and the concept of Arenas is sound enough.

[hogarth]

I noticed that too, when stumbling upon the Red Box Hack SRD.

I didn't realise that Old School Hack was based on another game, but now I see that he mentions that in the introduction.

[RobG]

@Virgil

I always thought the first key to creating something good was recognizing what was good in the first place. If you can see the quality in other peoples' work it means you don't have your head up your ass.

It's something..

Edit- It's ironic that nobody has responded to the Questions of humanity/ isolation post

[virgil]

I noticed that too, when stumbling upon the Red Box Hack SRD. If there was a better incentive to move (like regaining powers or a sort of The Edge mechanic) and if the arenas were more strongly defined like with Really Big Squares or FATE then that might not be the case. Most every class ability being straight flavor was kind of shitty, too.

There are a number of powers that are recharged by moving into a new arena. In terms of effort, I would do much better tweaking OSH rather than Parabellum to get the kinks out, as the base is much more solid.

Wouldn't irony be where many people gathered to respond to that post [/snark]?

[RobG]

Wouldn't irony be where many people gathered to respond to that post [/snark]?

I will stand corrected.

I would have responded in that post but it would have ruined the point.

[hogarth]

There are a number of powers that are recharged by moving into a new arena.

...none of which are worth wasting a turn on (with the possible exception of Backstab).

I'm not sure what it is about the "arena" idea that people like. Outside of the powers that reference them (which are basically useless), there's very little to the idea:
(a) arenas exist
(b) some of them give a bonus to a type of attack
(c) you need to be in the same arena for melee
(d) you can give up your attack to try to bullrush someone into another arena
(e) you can give up your attack to move from arena A to arena B, but enemies in arena A get free attacks against you

That's really about it. You could probably get the same effect in D&D by saying every fight takes place in a number of 10'x10' rooms and getting rid of the "standard + move" action combination.

[virgil]

I'm not sure what it is about the "arena" idea that people like. Outside of the powers that reference them (which are basically useless), there's very little to the idea:
(a) arenas exist
(b) some of them give a bonus to a type of attack
(c) you need to be in the same arena for melee
(d) you can give up your attack to try to bullrush someone into another arena
(e) you can give up your attack to move from arena A to arena B, but enemies in arena A get free attacks against you

It acts very similarly to my zones mechanic in Parabellum, without the nearly extraneous Size mechanic. As for point E, I'm not seeing that rule exist. In fact, moving from arena to arena is without hindrance or penalty (barring opportunity penalty) unless someone goes out of their way to stop you.

What makes it of any particular difference with zones (including FATE's)?

[hogarth]

I'm not sure what it is about the "arena" idea that people like. Outside of the powers that reference them (which are basically useless), there's very little to the idea:
(a) arenas exist
(b) some of them give a bonus to a type of attack
(c) you need to be in the same arena for melee
(d) you can give up your attack to try to bullrush someone into another arena
(e) you can give up your attack to move from arena A to arena B, but enemies in arena A get free attacks against you

It acts very similarly to my zones mechanic in Parabellum, without the nearly extraneous Size mechanic.

Okay, but (a) and (c) are extremely trivial, and (b) and (d) are mildly interesting but hardly revolutionary (e.g. D&D already has rules for bullrushing and height advantage bonuses, for instance). So which point do you find so interesting? It really seems like just a tiny variation on 1E AD&D's "you're in melee or you're not" version of combat positioning.

As for point E, I'm not seeing that rule exist. In fact, moving from arena to arena is without hindrance or penalty (barring opportunity penalty) unless someone goes out of their way to stop you.

I'm not sure where I was getting that idea from; probably an extremely garbled reading of the Impede action.

[virgil]

I'm not sure what it is about the "arena" idea that people like. Outside of the powers that reference them (which are basically useless), there's very little to the idea:
(a) arenas exist
(b) some of them give a bonus to a type of attack
(c) you need to be in the same arena for melee
(d) you can give up your attack to try to bullrush someone into another arena
(e) you can give up your attack to move from arena A to arena B, but enemies in arena A get free attacks against you

It acts very similarly to my zones mechanic in Parabellum, without the nearly extraneous Size mechanic.

Okay, but (a) and (c) are extremely trivial, and (b) and (d) are mildly interesting but hardly revolutionary (e.g. D&D already has rules for bullrushing and height advantage bonuses, for instance). So which point do you find so interesting? It really seems like just a tiny variation on 1E AD&D's "you're in melee or you're not" version of combat positioning.

I'm not expecting it to be a vastly superior play space system, so much as I expect it to meet my goals; which are no grids/rulers, simple, as well as tactical & descriptive enough for movement to still happen. I like to think that my zone/phase system largely meets these goals, but I also feel that the arena/round system does it better, which is the important thing to work with.

The fact that the arena-recharge powers aren't commonly good is a separate matter. In hindsight, I can't really claim that my system's abilities were at all balanced with each other either. Playtested balance between talents/classes is a whole other matter that will need to be worked on in either case.

[hogarth]

I'm not expecting it to be a vastly superior play space system, so much as I expect it to meet my goals; which are no grids/rulers, simple, as well as tactical & descriptive enough for movement to still happen.

Of course, you still need a grid/map/whatever for Old School Hack, unless you assume that anyone can teleport from any arena to any other arena in the universe in one step. You just have "really big squares", to coin a phrase.

[virgil]

I'm not expecting it to be a vastly superior play space system, so much as I expect it to meet my goals; which are no grids/rulers, simple, as well as tactical & descriptive enough for movement to still happen.

Of course, you still need a grid/map/whatever for Old School Hack, unless you assume that anyone can teleport from any arena to any other arena in the universe in one step. You just have "really big squares", to coin a phrase.

Ah, but while all grids are maps, not all maps are grids. There is a level of imprecision allowed that you can't match when you need to count squares or measure heights. There is a clear and present advantage to just throwing down tokens, minis, and soda can terrain on any table at a fraction of the effort compared to 3E (or 4E especially).

[MGuy]

I agree. Chronicle screamed Akira to me except that more than one guy got powers and I could understand the ending better the first time around.

[DSMatticus]

I agree. Chronicle screamed Akira to me except that more than one guy got powers and I could understand the ending better the first time around.

Akira's the obvious one, but I think every villain of the week cartoon ever has done an episode with "teenager gets superpower, then turns into dick." Chronicle was just a more in-depth and mature take on the concept than a 30-minute kid/teen's cartoon with way better storytelling.