A class you'd like to see

[Kaelik]

1) It shouldn't matter what Frank meant. If it's not a problem for the game to have See in magical darkness as well, then you should have it, since you believed you did. If it is a problem, what Frank says shouldn't allow you to use it if it is a problem.

2) He almost certainly meant including magical darkness, because as a general rule, if you mean darkvision, you say darkvision, and if you say "See in Darkness" you are usually making a call out to the Devil ability "See in Darkness." And so you mean for it to include Magical Darkness.

[Username17]

I'd like to see a Warmage fix that The Den won't bitch about. No one agrees on the proper amount of evocation damage here. Ever.

That is true. But mostly, people can't even agree on what a "War Mage" should be or do. If I was going to go around calling myself a "War Mage", i would expect to have a lot of abilities like alarm, move earth, create food and water, and shit like that so that I could play logistics and dragons and go to War!

But if you just want to be a Fire Mage, I think there's a class for that.

I just want to be a multi-elemental blaster mage like FF style Black Mage with the hat n shit. At-wills or a mana pool are a must.

Wat. It is difficult for me to imagine a Mana Pool mechanic for Dungeons & Dragons that the Den wouldn't bitch about. The default assumption is that you will spend a total of about 5 or 6 rounds in combat during an ability use period when you're high level. Because the game tells you that high level characters should be in 4 fights, and that is how long it takes to resolve 4 fights at high level in D&D. So I'm not really sure what you could do with a Mana Pool that wouldn't boil down to "some funky accounting before you use your biggest attack in every single round of every single encounter".

-Username17

[Kaelik]

I just want to be a multi-elemental blaster mage like FF style Black Mage with the hat n shit. At-wills or a mana pool are a must.

Wat. It is difficult for me to imagine a Mana Pool mechanic for Dungeons & Dragons that the Den wouldn't bitch about. The default assumption is that you will spend a total of about 5 or 6 rounds in combat during an ability use period when you're high level. Because the game tells you that high level characters should be in 4 fights, and that is how long it takes to resolve 4 fights at high level in D&D. So I'm not really sure what you could do with a Mana Pool that wouldn't boil down to "some funky accounting before you use your biggest attack in every single round of every single encounter".

-Username17

1) Maybe my Elemental Siphon would be a mana pool example?

2) Hey Sigma, now that I think about it, try looking at my Elemental Siphon. It is a four element caster, and it has a mana pool. It's not really a blaster, but given that you are half 4rrie anyway, you'll probably think it's super overpowered anyway, so if you just remove all the status effects from every ability, then it will be just a blaster.

[JonSetanta]

I tried the Fire Mage during a few sessions of Eberron. People said it was more powerful than the Warlock and therefore too good.
That wasn't my opinion, but it seemed a bit single-minded. Something that could deal 3 or more types of elemental damage in a similar manner would be ideal.

Wat. It is difficult for me to imagine a Mana Pool mechanic for Dungeons & Dragons that the Den wouldn't bitch about. The default assumption is that you will spend a total of about 5 or 6 rounds in combat during an ability use period when you're high level. Because the game tells you that high level characters should be in 4 fights, and that is how long it takes to resolve 4 fights at high level in D&D. So I'm not really sure what you could do with a Mana Pool that wouldn't boil down to "some funky accounting before you use your biggest attack in every single round of every single encounter".

The best mana pool implementation would be:
1. Low in digits. Psionics is nice and all but I don't want to track triple digit PPs or whatever.
2. Spells scale with level, not how much mana you pump into a spell.
3. Keep the pool small, but refresh often. 4 encounters per day is fine, but what about keeping up with characters using at wills? Is assuming "1 encounter every hour" too much in a crowded dungeon or fortress?

[Kaelik]

Yeah, I'm going to have to double down on my, you should read my Elemental Siphon thing.

[...You Lost Me]

there's a class for that

Fuck, how did I miss a post 40 minutes before me? Well there's the link. ^

[Username17]

I tried the Fire Mage during a few sessions of Eberron. People said it was more powerful than the Warlock and therefore too good.
That wasn't my opinion, but it seemed a bit single-minded. Something that could deal 3 or more types of elemental damage in a similar manner would be ideal.

So... people were unhappy with the Firemage because it's netter than a shitty class. So you want a class that is objectively better than the Firemage to play instead. Are you... trolling your gaming group?

-Username17

[Neurosis]

Maybe more elemental types but proportionally less good at dealing damage in each of them? Trade efficacy for versatility?

Could be equally good as Fire Mage. Just thinking out loud.

(P.S. I troll my gaming group sometimes.)

[OgreBattle]

I'd like to see Conan as a single class and not a multiclass of everyone who doesn't use magic.



... and is there a Tome Combat Feat for becoming a "warrior guy who also casts magic and wears armor"? A class for that would be neat but I think it'd be more fun to make it (your choice of fightguy)/(your choice of arcane magic user)

[Maxus]

I'd like to see Conan as a single class and not a multiclass of everyone who doesn't use magic.

The Tome Barbarian does the junk Conan does in the Robert Howard stories. Honestly!

The very first one has him get pretty well screwed up in a fight, he takes plenty of hits, but when it's over, he chills for a minute, drinks some wine, and then gets up and he's functional. He's still go the wounds showing, but it's like fast healing kicked in.

Not to mention it gets Hide, Move Silently, Climb, other skills he's used for breaking into places.

Conan's a Barbarian with higher-than-normal intelligence and charisma, and a wisdom penalty, at level 7 or so. That's one of the few things that impressed me--Conan isn't stupid by any means. Uneducated doesn't mean unintelligent there. Though if he had better sense, he'd be able to avoid some of the shit he gets into.

[virgil]

Conan's a Barbarian with higher-than-normal intelligence and charisma, and a wisdom penalty, at level 7 or so. That's one of the few things that impressed me--Conan isn't stupid by any means. Uneducated doesn't mean unintelligent there. Though if he had better sense, he'd be able to avoid some of the shit he gets into.

All of the Conan stories I read included him knowing more languages than most academics, completely fooling city guard into thinking he's a simple traveler, knowing lore of ancient animal magic enough to draw a word to make enchanted panthers stop hunting him, and effectively lead a pirate ship. He doesn't do well with diplomacy, he knows/cares little of 'civilized' society other than where they keep the loot, is not a crafter (most advanced I've seen is a sharpened stick), and doesn't do much dexterity stuff (acrobatics, balance, sleight of hand, etc). Also, some of his best kills are when he's in the shadows and a hatchet suddenly appears in their face.

Honestly, the guy is a strength-based rogue more than anything.

[Koumei]

Sigma: try the Elemental Syphon, yeah. But if they demand it be "About Warlock strength or weaker", there's going to be a problem but I could probably bullshit up some "Black Mage" class that does what you want. But to fit the "weaker than Warlock" thing, you have to understand it'd be kind of lame.

[Kaelik]

I wonder how many people will have to recommend he look at the Elemental Siphon before it will overcome the fact that it was written by the evil bad man he hates, and therefore couldn't possible be worth looking at.

[Username17]

I wonder how many people will have to recommend he look at the Elemental Siphon before it will overcome the fact that it was written by the evil bad man he hates, and therefore couldn't possible be worth looking at.

Do you not understand that it is more powerful than the Warlock and the Hexblade?

-Username17

[Kaelik]

I wonder how many people will have to recommend he look at the Elemental Siphon before it will overcome the fact that it was written by the evil bad man he hates, and therefore couldn't possible be worth looking at.

Do you not understand that it is more powerful than the Warlock and the Hexblade?

-Username17

Well yes, but I did specify that he start by removing all the conditions so that it only does damage. Yeah, on top of that, it might also need halving of all damage in order to comply with the whole "Must do less damage than any other character because it's a spellcaster without spell slots" crippling fear.

But maybe not, because in my experience, if you told people you wanted to play a Warlock, but you could only shoot your lazer blasts or use your spells 10 times before needing a minutes rest to get it back, anyone who complains that Warlocks are too strong is suddenly fine with it.

So it's possible that since obviously they don't base their problems with a Warlock on actual effects, they only base it on the at will nature, and therefore, will be fine with a power pool, even if the power pool doesn't limit the level 1 fire ability that does more damage than a warlock.

[JonSetanta]

So... people were unhappy with the Firemage because it's netter than a shitty class. So you want a class that is objectively better than the Firemage to play instead. Are you... trolling your gaming group?

Hey man, your class was fine as a damage dealer. It just became a little difficult to do anything else, or deal with fire res. at early levels.

Ironically this was the same group with the manipulative DM's girlfriend I mentioned in another thread, so who even knows what their standards for balance is.
Half the group was Fighters. They were happy with it in Eberron. I just shrugged.


I looked at the Elemental Siphon (again). I think I'll just write up something less complex.

I could probably bullshit up some "Black Mage" class that does what you want.

When I think "Black Mage" "Blue Mage" or "Red Mage" I think of Magic cards black, blue, and red mana, but that's just my problem.
Have at it.
I'll do something like a 10 to 15 level class that can use 2-3 elements in combat spells, as well as emulate a few mobility effects using combat spells (shoot Fireball at your feet for a jump boost, etc)
But first I go do chores.

[Username17]

Are you playing at a high enough level that you could be Koumei's Prism Mage?

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

Are you playing at a high enough level that you could be Koumei's Prism Mage?

That's cool. I really should read through Koumei's Disgaea threads more often.

I've gone through 5-6 collapsed D&D groups in the last half year, the most recent time I actually played a full game was about a year ago (as an incubus from Savage Species) and the rest of the party did nothing but whine about my lack of contribution towards defeating golems and traps with my Doom and Suggestion powers.
So, while I have been invited to yet another group at level 5 or so, I'll probably go with a base class and look forward to a PrC if the group lasts.
It's the Curse of the Failed RPG Group.

---

Here's the abomination I made inspired by the Negima manga; http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=257362

I'm scrounging for more spell effect debuffs but they're almost always fatal after level 10, which makes this difficult.
I could slap in Petrify as by the villain Fate, but without the experimental CAN/Bloodied condition it doesn't seem fair, and that discussion isn't complete yet so I stopped the Magister design right about when the spellcasting breaks down into SoD land.

[JonSetanta]

The Dark Antihero, a blend of Warlock, Hexblade, and Binder. I hope it's more powerful than all three combined.

[Koumei]

Have at it.

The Black Mage
"I am the black mage that casts the spells that make the people fall down"

Hit Die: d6
BAB: 1/2 (as Wizard)
Saving Throws: Good Fort and Ref
Skill Points: 4+Int
Class Skills: the Black Mage probably has some class skills
Proficiencies: Light Armour and Simple Weapons, as well as Magic Books.

A Magic Book is a magic weapon that can be used to smack someone on the head for 1 damage (plus the usual modifiers), and adds its Enhancement bonus to the attack and damage rolls and save DCs of the [Focus] abilities of the Black Mage.

Level:	Special:
1	Arcane Focus, Fire Surge, Frost Shiver, Minor Powers, Burn Magical Defences
2	Lightning Strike, Quake, Blood Freeze
3	Elemental Resistance 5, Neuro-Shock
4	Flame Eruption, Burst of Frost, Blazing Visibility
5	Lightning Arc, Double-Cast 1/day, Too Cold
6	Elemental Resistance 10, Wing Jolt
7	Firestorm, Mighty Blizzard, Sear Defences
8	Aero, Thunderstorm, Freeze Solid
9	Elemental Resistance 15, Ground Splitting Quake, Shock Treatment
10	Ultima, Double-Cast 2/day, Arcane Undoing

Arcane Focus (Su): the powers of the Black Mage cannot be used completely without limit. With a Full Round Action, he can summon up the power to use each of his [Focus] abilities once. They cannot be used again until he again focuses, at which point each ability can be used once - unspent powers are lost.

Fire Surge (Sp): with a Standard Action, the Black Mage causes fire to erupt amongst foes. A 5' radius Burst is created in Close Range, dealing 1d6 Fire damage per two Caster Levels to all in the area. A Reflex Save for half is permitted (Charisma-based). This is a [Focus] ability.

Frost Shiver (Sp): with a Standard Action, the Black Mage can make enemies very cold. One target within Close Range must make a Fortitude Save (Charisma-based) or suffer 1d6 Cold damage per Caster Level. This is a [Focus] ability.

Minor Powers (Sp): the Black Mage can use the following at will: Create Water (gaining the Drench ability of a Water Elemental), Featherfall, Electric Jolt, Slow Burn

Burn Magical Defences (Sp): with a Swift Action, the Black Mage may target a foe within Close Range and make a Ranged Touch Attack. If it hits, the foe takes 1d6 Fire damage and has any Armour, Shield and Deflection bonuses to AC that are gained from spells reduced by 2 each (minimum 0). Magic Items are not affected, however. This penalty lasts for one round. This is a [Focus] ability.

Lightning Strike (Sp): with a Standard Action, the second level Black Mage can call a bolt of lightning down to hurt his foes. One enemy within Medium Range must make a Reflex Save (Charisma-based) or suffer 1d6 Electricity damage per Caster Level. This is a [Focus] ability.

Quake (Sp): the second-level Black Mage can also call upon the earth to pummel foes. With a Standard Action, he designates a 20' radius Spread within Medium Range. All in the area must succeed on a Fortitude Save (Charisma-based) or fall Prone and suffer 1d6 + Caster Level Bludgeoning damage. This is a [Focus] ability.

Blood Freeze (Sp): with a Swift Action, a Black Mage of second level can freeze the blood in an enemy just enough to prevent their natural healing, although it also ends any "bleed" effects that cause gradual HP loss. A foe within Close Range must pass a Fortitude Save (Charisma-based) or lose access to Fast Healing (including the Vigour spells) and the HP-regaining aspect of Regeneration for one minute. This is a [Focus] ability.

Elemental Resistance 5 (Ex): at level three, the Black Mage gains Energy Resistance 5 against Fire, Electricity and Cold. Every three levels, the resistance increases by another 5 points.

Neuro-Shock (Sp): with a Swift Action, the third-level Black Mage can attempt to jolt an enemies' nervous system, making it hard to move. He makes a Ranged Touch Attack against a foe in Medium Range, and if they fail a Fortitude Save (Charisma-based) they are Entangled for 1 minute. This is a [Focus] ability.

Flame Eruption (Sp): with a Standard Action, the fourth-level Black Mage can conjure a 15' radius Burst within Medium Range, dealing 1d6 Fire damage per Caster Level to everyone in the area, with a Reflex Save for half (Charisma-based). This is a [Focus] ability.

Burst of Frost (Sp): at level four, the Black Mage can make a large burst of cold air and ice crystals. With a Standard Action he designates a 10' radius Spread in Close Range, and everyone within must pass a Fortitude Save (Charisma-based) or suffer 1d6 Cold damage per Caster Level and be Slowed for one round. This is a [Focus] ability.

Blazing Visibility (Sp): the fourth-level Black Mage can cast Faerie Fire as a Swift Action. This is a [Focus] ability.

Lightning Arc (Sp): at level five, the Black Mage can cause a surge of lightning to cross the field. With a Standard Action, he designates two points up to 30' apart, both within Medium Range. The points are then joined by a 5' wide line of lightning, dealing 1d6 Electricity damage per Caster Level to all in the area, with a Reflex Save (Charisma-based) for half. This is a [Focus] ability.

Double-Cast (Ex): at fifth level, the Black Mage may double-cast a [Focus] ability once per day - effectively, it is Twinned (as per the meta-magic feat) despite not being a Spell, which ignores the casting limit for [Focus] abilities. Every five levels, he gains another daily use of this ability.

Too Cold (Sp): with an Immediate Action, the fifth-level Black Mage can frost someone over so it's too cold for them to take advantage of rapid movement. He makes a Ranged Touch Attack against a foe in Close Range, and if it hits, any Haste effects on them are dispelled and they lose the ability to make Immediate Actions, Swift Actions and Attacks of Opportunity for one round. This is a [Focus] ability.

Wing Jolt (Sp): At level six, the Black Mage may use an Immediate Action to zap someone who is flying. He makes a Ranged Touch Attack against a foe within Long Range, and on a hit deals 1d6 Electricity damage and disables any Fly speeds for 4 rounds. This is a [Focus] ability.

Firestorm (Sp): at level seven, the Black Mage may use a Full Round Action to call down a pillar of hellfire and brimstone on his enemies. He designates a 30' radius 150' tall Column within Long Range, and all in the area suffer 1d6 Fire damage per Caster Level with a Reflex Save for half (Charisma-based). Those who attempt the save but fail it (as opposed to just electing to fail) catch fire for 2d6 Fire damage per round until put out. This is a [Focus] ability.

Mighty Blizzard (Sp): with a Standard Action, the Seventh-level Black Mage can call down a very swift blizzard on his foes. He designates a 30' radius Spread within Medium Range, and all in the area suffer 1d6 Cold damage per Caster Level and are Slowed for 4 rounds. A successful Fortitude Save (Charisma-based) negates the effect. This is a [Focus] ability.

Sear Defences (Su): at seventh level, the Black Mage may use a Swift Action to burn the spell resistance from a target. He makes a Ranged Touch Attack out to Close Range, and on a hit, the target suffers 1d6 Fire damage and has their Spell Resistance lowered by 5 for one round. This is a [Focus] ability.

Aero (Sp): at eighth level, the Black Mage may spend a Standard Action to gain a Fly Speed (Good) of 60 feet for 10 minutes. This is a [Focus] ability.

Thunderstorm (Sp): at level eight, the Black Mage can call down proper lightning storms, complete with booming thunder. With a Standard Action, he designates up to one target per Caster Level in Long Range. Each target must be within 15' of one or more other targets. They all then take 1d6 Electricity damage per Caster Level, negated by a successful Reflex Save (Charisma-based). This is a [Focus] ability.

Freeze Solid (Sp): at eighth level, not even ghosts are a problem. The Black Mage can, with a Swift Action, designate an Incorporeal or Ethereal foe within Medium Range, and they freeze enough to actually become Corporeal. For four rounds, they can be affected as though corporeal - losing the Miss Chance and being treated as having a Strength score of 10, so they can even be grappled and such. This is a [Focus] ability.

Ground Splitting Quake (Sp): at ninth level, the Black Mage can cause earthquakes of a kind. With a Standard Action, he designates a 50' radius Spread within Long Range, and all in the area must make a Fortitude Save (Charisma-based) or fall prone and take 1d6+Caster Level Bludgeoning damage. Whether people pass the save or not, the area becomes Difficult Terrain. This is a [Focus] ability.

Shock Treatment (Sp): when the ninth-level Black Mage zaps someone, they notice it. With a Swift Action he may make a Ranged Touch Attack out to Medium Range. If he hits, the target takes 1d6 Electricity damage and loses all Enhancement bonuses to Ability Scores. If the Enhancements come from spells, they are Dispelled. If from items, the effects are merely suppressed for 4 rounds. This is a [Focus] ability.

Ultima (Sp): once per day, the tenth-level Black Mage can cast Ultima. All creatures in Close Range suffer 2d6 Force damage per Caster Level, with a Fortitude Save (Charisma-based) for half. Although this is not a [Focus] ability, it benefits from a Magic Book as though it were one.

Arcane Undoing (Sp): at level ten, the Black Mage can cast Greater Dispel as a Swift Action. This is a [Focus] ability.

---

So you have a bunch of damaging effects as your basic powers, some with weak debuffs or riders, and then you also have (generally swift-action) effects that let you specifically counter enemy abilities, making it easier for everyone to gank them. And you have to focus for a round in order to recharge it all.

Then at later levels you want to add debuffs and workarounds for whatever other problems you think enemies will pose, but you already have anti-Flight (and your own Flight), anti-Invisibility and anti-Incorporeal so w/e. You probably also want to then include the ability to make people drown, turn them to stone and maybe have elemental attacks combo off each other or something.

I would also recommend making a lot of the special abilities after 10th be upgrades to existing ones so as to keep the pretence of a limit to abilities - you'd still have heaps of [Focus] abilities so it's not a serious limit, but there'd be some vague "Okay, now I have to actually use a weaker power/another element".

[...You Lost Me]

Question! (this is not me trolling, promise) I want the awesome of the Elemental Siphon, but I also want something that won't invalidate, say, a party with an optimized rogue, a tome assassin, and a tome knight. The Siphon is significantly stronger... does diluting it to a 2/3 ratio with some filler levels sound like a good idea, or does that lead down a road of stupid?

[Kaelik]

Question! (this is not me trolling, promise) I want the awesome of the Elemental Siphon, but I also want something that won't invalidate, say, a party with an optimized rogue, a tome assassin, and a tome knight. The Siphon is significantly stronger... does diluting it to a 2/3 ratio with some filler levels sound like a good idea, or does that lead down a road of stupid?

I would answer with:

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WAAAARRGGGGLLLLLLL!

I hope I made as much sense to you as you did to me, because what you said is extremely confusing. I have no idea how a Tome Assassin/Optimized Rogue/Tome Knight feel underpowered when combat music is playing.

Obviously, they should feel underpowered when combat music is not playing, because they don't get non combat abilities (except the Assassin). But I'm really confused how an Elemental Siphon would upset them with his "doing way the fuck less damage, and providing status effects that a) Prevent creatures from attacking the Knight (thus giving him combat challenge) and b) deprive them of Dex to AC, thus giving SA/DA.

[JonSetanta]

The Black Mage
"I am the black mage that casts the spells that make the people fall down"

*applause*

I am confused about one thing; Focus. Does this mean it can't be stored? It seems to imply you focus, then cast the spell, all in the same round.
Or do you Focus on one round, then cast on the next?
Why not just have the spells at-will?

[Emerald]

The Black Mage
"I am the black mage that casts the spells that make the people fall down"

*applause*

I am confused about one thing; Focus. Does this mean it can't be stored? It seems to imply you focus, then cast the spell, all in the same round.
Or do you Focus on one round, then cast on the next?
Why not just have the spells at-will?

Looks to me like you spend a full-round action to focus, then you can Fire Surge once, and Frost Shiver once, etc. until you go through all your [Focus] abilities, then you have to spend another full-round action to focus. Sort of like ToB classes and refreshing maneuvers.

[Koumei]

Looks to me like you spend a full-round action to focus, then you can Fire Surge once, and Frost Shiver once, etc. until you go through all your [Focus] abilities, then you have to spend another full-round action to focus. Sort of like ToB classes and refreshing maneuvers.

This.

Mostly it's not "At Will" so that people who cry about "at will" will shut up and decide everything is okay. After all, sometimes (usually out of combat) you have to spend a full round action charging up.

However it does also mean that he won't be using the same power each round: he either has to switch his powers up (and act in basically every turn unless something weird is going on) or alternate using his favourite power and focusing.