Runner's Companion was Terrible

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:34 am

Mainly it's a legacy thing. We could have dropped it, but it was preferred to people having cyberzombie pixies flitting about.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:39 pm

Ancient History wrote:Running Wild, Aaron wrote the rules so that a dual-natured creature in astral combat didn't actually have to move to hit something in astral space - which was retarded - and I think there were some things on astral perception that were whack too. It has been some little while, so I don't remember all the details, but we used to get in fights about that shit.

I don't think I can really disagree with Aaron, there. Dual-natured critters get gimped by the flying archer problem. This is exacerbated by the fact that everything on the Astral Plane and made pretty much unbearable by the fact that the only available astral combat solution for dual-natured critters is punching things.

A Dumbass Melee Fighter can at least pick up a gun and try to shoot Jetpack Hitler. Dual-natured critters who aren't magicians are totally at the mercy of purely astral critters. Giving them ranged astral combat evens that out a little bit.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:54 pm

hyzmarca wrote:Dual-natured critters who aren't magicians are totally at the mercy of purely astral critters.

I like that.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:00 pm

Dual-natured critters are already fucked because they don't have the Astral Combat skill, and they don't have a Stupid Jetpack Hitler problem because no astral critter has a ranged attack. Aaron just fucked up a lot of astral physics so that you didn't have a hellhound swiping at empty air while mauling a spirit.

Which is part of the reason half the FAQ rules ended up with "please wait for this mythical sourcebook that will never ever happen." We seriously had an argument about whether an astral solid would impact another astral solid if they were coterminous in space, back when I considered that shit important.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:53 pm

Ancient History wrote:Mainly it's a legacy thing. We could have dropped it, but it was preferred to people having cyberzombie pixies flitting about.

Well . . . Technically, even if that did work, all you would gain would be a TINY Cyber-Zombie . . Because the paranormal abilities burn out during the procedure, so it would have become a completely mundane and then dual natured again critter without the vanishing and because their flight is magical grounded small little tiny adorably deadly cyber zombie . . right? O.o

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:08 pm

Nah, part of being a cyberzombie is dying on the operating table. Well, murdered, but same diff.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:34 pm

Yes well, you know as well as i do that there are still people saying that magically active people get their magic attribute permanently reduced to one, instead of lowered to zero and then raised to one again . .

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:08 am

Stahlseele wrote:These metatypes rely purely on the given setting . .

Cyborgs would be PERFECT to go into Chicago for example.
Or into the Australian Outback. Or the SOX.

Funny you mention that, I'm actually rather interested in running adventures in Shadowruns Chicago. I've even spent couple days in my off time looking up all the information on Shadowrun wiki's about it, apparently the only sourcebook with details about it was back in 2nd edition. A wiki I've checked has implied the quarantine is over, as if the whole bugapocalypse is no longer present, or such minimal threat, just another thing to watch out for in the night (like gangers)? Disregarding that, still think it sounds like good ol bug wars can make for some interesting adventures (probably helps I'm a sucker for the Post Apocalypse).

Chance of sounding rather dumb, what is the SOX, and why include those locations as well?

Sentient AI's basically need a way to interact with the real world. Probably one of these metahuman looking drones or something with an built in holo-projector maybe . . Well, if they want to really interact with metahumans on such a scale at least . .

While we are at scales: Drakes . . are only a real Problem because of the Great Dragons hunting them or them working for a Great Dragon . .
Depends entirely on which dragon you are working for in the latter case.

I figured that's how Sentient AI would work in the world, how to make them viable in the game itself, not entirely sure (other than definitely dramatically reduce that 110BP cost). Although what you bring up for Drakes I find rather interesting, a runner working for an actual corp, kinda like a Double Agent deal. Well as seeing situation where a dragon/hunting party going after you, backing off once they see you're branded with someone important in the Draconic hierarchy of things. Hell, it sounds really appropriate to me as an option in a Shadowrun game.

Ancient History wrote:Not all of the writers were up on, or even liked, the posthuman direction under Rob. Some of 'em (read: Bull) want to drag SR back screaming and kicking and bleeding into the 2050s era of pink mohawks and cyberdecks. Which I understand, but can't sympathize with. Change or die and all that.

I was under the vague impression that pink mohawks were still in, although these "cyberdecks" not so sure what they are, they like the physical keyboard, like this one old Shadowrun video I watched awhile back? Believe it's rather infamous for its terrible throwback to the 80s, and probably more seen in a comedic light than anything. Otherwise, what is "Shadowrun" really, seems like just Fantasy in a Cyberpunk/futuristic modern world, is the key themes of being "human" like missing from being a Cyborg or sentient AI? I know in Shadowrun realm centaur sentience is of debate, but there was some big NPC that showed they are capable of intelligence.

Also, like to note idea of "Magical Centaur and his AI friend" sounds pretty awesome, and I support this.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:25 am

The only jetpack Hitler in Astral Space is the magician who knows Stunbolt. And there is fuckall you can do about it as a dual natured critter except find a cave or a building with a ceiling low enough that you can reach it. Nothing Aaron wrote changes that.

What he wrote was that Hellhounds could (and must) punch astral foes in range with their Aura using their Wilpower and (nonexistent) Astral Combat skill instead of being allowed to use their claws and unarmed combat. Since Astral Combat is a no-default skill, this moved Hell Hounds from "cannot fight an astrally projected mage who knows combat spells outside a confined space" to "cannot fight any astral forms at all under any circumstances".

It's just basic and total rules-fail. Like pretty much every single thing Aaron ever wrote.

-Username17

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:33 am

Aaron is one of the very few people on Dumpshock I put on ignore. He was first, and I've never taken him off, unlike most of the others.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:48 am

@The SOX:
http://pl.shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Saar ... ative_Zone

The Saar-Lorraine-Luxembourg Special Administrative Zone, also known as the SOX or the Zone, is sealed emergency zone recognized by the Allied German States and France. The SOX was established to contain the damage caused by the meltdown of the Cattenom reactors in 2008. The SOX has been walled off by a series of 5-meter high, 3-meter thick reinforced concrete barriers, secured by automated defenses and monitored by watchtowers positioned at 7 kilometer intervals along the wall. In 2053, complete control of the SOX was handed over to a private stricture called the Kontrollrat/Conseil de Contrôle (Administrative Council), a joint-corporate partnership including AG Chemie Europa, Ares Macrotechnology, Eastern Star Pharmaceuticals, IFMU, Proteus AG, Renraku, Saeder-Krupp and other corporations. The mercenary company MET2000 has a contract to provide perimeter security.

History Edytuj

On March 2008, the two cooling towers of the Cattenom nuclear reactor cracked, releasing radioactive steam into the immediate area.

In 2053, France and Germany handed control of the SOX to corporations.

Economy Edytuj

Corporations are conducing decontamination process in the area. But the SOX is primarily used for radiological research and military technology testing. The radiations levels also provide physical and magical security to sensible research compounds.

Notes on terminology Edytuj

Cattenom is often refered as Cattenom-GAU in english with no reason. GAU, "Größter Anzunehmender Unfall", is German terminology for major nuclear accident, which has no reason to be used in an English text about a French nuclear power plant.

"Kontrollrat" is translated in english as "Administrative Council", while a more proper translation could be "Control Council". The French form (probably in use since parts of the SOX were French and Luxembourg territory) would be "Conseil de Contrôle" (or "Conseil Administratif" if you follow the English term).

Basically, we have our very own little kinda Fallout world theme park going on between germany/france. ^^
You can see why a cyborg, which is, basically, just a brain in whatever kind of expedition vehicle/robot you can think of, would work very well in this kind of environment right?
You can plaster on some serious radiation shielding, you can armor it up to whatever levels, you can arm it to the not there any more teeth to fight off mutated critters and crazy people. And it has a kinda (un)natural resistance to magic, so it won't suffer from the high levels of backgrond count either.

@AI:
Well, you could have an AI that was used to filter through old media for useable scraps turn out as basically any kind of robot you can remember from any kind of movie . . yes, you could have one in a R2-D2-Body too.
Or in one of those flying small little things from Batteries not included. Or Johnny 5 from Short Circuit. If you can make a reasonable claim that the AI would know of these, you could explain it all. An AI is basically your most tool-kit/(re)build it yourself kind of character you can do in SR4. Only the Cyborg comes close to this.

@Drakes:
This is official basically.
When a drake awakens, all Great Dragons notice.
All of them want him to work for them.
So all of them set out for a more or less covert Drake-Hunt.
First to reach him usually tells him:"you live for me now, or you won't live at all"
And if the Drake manages to get away, the second to reach him will do exactly the same again.
Question:"What do you give a Great Dragon?"
Answer: "Anything he wants!"
Once you have his ownership over you made "public" knowledge (at least to other Dragons hunting for you) you are his to do with as he pleases and usually no other Dragon will try any funny business . .

@Hellhounds: Does their wailing to incapacitate people work on the astral too?

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:51 am

Aryxbez wrote: Otherwise, what is "Shadowrun" really, seems like just Fantasy in a Cyberpunk/futuristic modern world, is the key themes of being "human" like missing from being a Cyborg or sentient AI?

Shadowrun isn't just Fantasy in a Cyberpunk world. You don't have ork tribes on bikes raiding human cities "because orks are chaotic evil". You have orks suffering from discrimination and being treated like second class citizens. Because of that (and because they're naturally strong and tough), many of them will join ork gangs that might raid some neighborhood on bikes. Actually Shadowrun's orks are socially closer to latinos in US society than to D&D orcs.

And it's the same with pretty much all aspects of fantasy in Shadowrun : they're not put in the world next to the cyberpunk aspects, they're blended in. And in most cases, the fantasy part will be "dominated" by the cyberpunk part.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:07 am

Fantasy is D&D for you?

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:22 pm

Shadowrun's fantasy aspects have always seemed more Tolkien to me than D&D.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:33 pm

Well, Mordor . . could be most any sprawl i guess . .

UmaroVI · Post by **UmaroVI** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:26 pm

Stahlseele wrote: @Hellhounds: Does their wailing to incapacitate people work on the astral too?

You're thinking Barghests, and no.

@Jetpack Hitler: A lot of spirits have Fear, and that lets them in effect be jetpack Hitler, because that incapacitates people long enough for the spirit to wuss-slap them to death by pretty much any means it chooses. And the spirit can always just Fear them again if it starts running out.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:42 pm

ah, right, i allways get them mixed up <.<

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:49 am

Stahlseele wrote: Basically, we have our very own little kinda Fallout world theme park going on between germany/france. ^^
You can see why a cyborg, which is, basically, just a brain in whatever kind of expedition vehicle/robot you can think of, would work very well in this kind of environment right?
You can plaster on some serious radiation shielding, you can armor it up to whatever levels, you can arm it to the not there any more teeth to fight off mutated critters and crazy people. And it has a kinda (un)natural resistance to magic, so it won't suffer from the high levels of backgrond count either.

Oh cool! I do like me some Fallout, I appreciate you posting the link, it didn't sound as apocalyptic upon first reading. Although that's probably my underestimating how big of an area the containment zone actually is. Idea it's also an area for "military technology testing" is perfect for PC's to get ahold of some wonky weapons Paranoia style (or steal them at least). Anyway, the brief explanation helped give idea to adventures that could be had there, and otherwise why a shadowrunner would care to go there.

Blade wrote:Actually Shadowrun's orks are socially closer to latinos in US society than to D&D orcs.

And it's the same with pretty much all aspects of fantasy in Shadowrun : they're not put in the world next to the cyberpunk aspects, they're blended in. And in most cases, the fantasy part will be "dominated" by the cyberpunk part.

Actually from what I read, it seemed they were more associated with the African American stereotype. Since they're associated with being robbers and thugs, who also have their own special gang culture, and language even. In addition to their massive numbers commonly in poor district of the City.

Fair enough that Shadowrun does just "blend" it together, so I guess can see that a little bit of Centaur "mysterious origins" is more fantasy like. So I guess would be right, it'd shift focus of the game a bit, to something more about the mythic side of things, and its difficulty adapting to the very modernized future, a standing out relic of the past if you will.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:10 am

Well, the Sox is about as big as Bavaria if i remember correctly.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:24 am

Aryxbez wrote:
Actually from what I read, it seemed they were more associated with the African American stereotype. Since they're associated with being robbers and thugs, who also have their own special gang culture, and language even. In addition to their massive numbers commonly in poor district of the City.

There's elements of both. Orxploitation is obviously a nod to blaxploitation but every other stereotype you just pointed out applies to hispanics as well as blacks, except hispanics have Spanish as opposed to just regional dialects--most African Americans after all, are not recent immigrants. Beyond that, the fear of no longer being the majority--orks in Shadowrun have high birth rates-- is very much related to fear of hispanics given that there's plenty of projections indicating that we'll be outnumbering whitey by 2050.