Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Pedantic · Post by **Pedantic** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:48 am

OgreBattle wrote:
rasmuswagner wrote: James Jacobs has admitted that the core races are NOT all going to fit into a 10 point scheme in the Master Race Handbook.
I wonder how the fans will react to 'imbalance built into races'.

Depends. In the playtest forums some of them thought the 10 point baseline was elegant, anyone still willing to crow about balance and design begged and pleaded for Paizo to just admit the dwarf is broken so the point-based race design mechanic might have a chance.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:25 pm

Pedantic wrote:Depends. In the playtest forums some of them thought the 10 point baseline was elegant, anyone still willing to crow about balance and design begged and pleaded for Paizo to just admit the dwarf is broken so the point-based race design mechanic might have a chance.

I kind of like the "all races are worth 10" approach, and it basically fits with my experience that there's no one race that's way more popular than all the others (except for humans).

The problem is that some racial abilities are basically worth 0 points (e.g. +2 bonus to some Appraise checks), but that doesn't really work in a point buy system.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:41 pm

hogarth wrote:
Pedantic wrote:Depends. In the playtest forums some of them thought the 10 point baseline was elegant, anyone still willing to crow about balance and design begged and pleaded for Paizo to just admit the dwarf is broken so the point-based race design mechanic might have a chance.
I kind of like the "all races are worth 10" approach, and it basically fits with my experience that there's no one race that's way more popular than all the others (except for humans).

The problem is that some racial abilities are basically worth 0 points (e.g. +2 bonus to some Appraise checks), but that doesn't really work in a point buy system.

It can work, having worthless racial abilities. Have a separate list of them, allowing a race to take up to X of them for free without permission to gain more points at the expense of NOT taking full advantage of the free abilities.

Popular does not necessarily mean overpowered, especially with the basketweaver demographic. A better sign would be for a race to be way less popular than all the others.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:27 pm

virgil wrote: Popular does not necessarily mean overpowered, especially with the basketweaver demographic. A better sign would be for a race to be way less popular than all the others.

Maybe I should have phrased it that way: I haven't found any race to be particularly less popular than all the others, with the possible exception of the rape baby half-orc.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:31 pm

It can work, having worthless racial abilities. Have a separate list of them, allowing a race to take up to X of them for free without permission to gain more points at the expense of NOT taking full advantage of the free abilities.

Then no one would take more then X "worthless" ones since by not taking them you would get ones that are worth something.

So that doesn't really work.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:48 pm

Leress wrote:
It can work, having worthless racial abilities. Have a separate list of them, allowing a race to take up to X of them for free without permission to gain more points at the expense of NOT taking full advantage of the free abilities.
Then no one would take more then X "worthless" ones since by not taking them you would get ones that are worth something.

So that doesn't really work.

Leress, I think you just misread his point.

-Username17

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:20 pm

Leress wrote:
It can work, having worthless racial abilities. Have a separate list of them, allowing a race to take up to X of them for free without permission to gain more points at the expense of NOT taking full advantage of the free abilities.
Then no one would take more then X "worthless" ones since by not taking them you would get ones that are worth something.

So that doesn't really work.

I think he's saying the system would work without that possibility. At least, I think that's what the bit after the word "without" means.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:46 pm

Rephrase time! You have a list of worthless abilities. When making a race, you are permitted to take up to X of them. You do not get rewarded extra points for taking fewer than allotted.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:59 pm

virgil wrote:Rephrase time! You have a list of worthless abilities. When making a race, you are permitted to take up to X of them. You do not get rewarded extra points for taking fewer than allotted.

Okay, so it was what I originally that it was before my edit.

So pretty much everyone would take the maximum number of "worthless" ones. I guess that's the best compromise.

RobG · Post by **RobG** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:06 am

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-cl ... pes/geisha

Magical Tea Party

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:10 am

Now I want to play a male geisha, to troll people.

A male troll geisha.

You'd think the joke gets stale after, say, two sessions, but I've never been in a PF game that lasted more than two sessions anyway.

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:07 am

Some PF people are arguing whether it is fair to charge 10% for crafting magic items (basically you save party members 40% of market price, you give them it for 60% of cost and get 10% of that for your time).

Some of them are saying it is theft to charge them any amount.
Apparently, you need to be the crafting slave if you take the craft feat.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5i8n?Creati ... -small-fee

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:32 am

Slade wrote:Some PF people are arguing whether it is fair to charge 10% for crafting magic items (basically you save party members 40% of market price, you give them it for 60% of cost and get 10% of that for your time).

Some of them are saying it is theft to charge them any amount.
Apparently, you need to be the crafting slave if you take the craft feat.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5i8n?Creati ... -small-fee

My character has been killed in his sleep for doing that. Just saying.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:07 pm

virgil wrote:
Slade wrote:Some PF people are arguing whether it is fair to charge 10% for crafting magic items (basically you save party members 40% of market price, you give them it for 60% of cost and get 10% of that for your time).

Some of them are saying it is theft to charge them any amount.
Apparently, you need to be the crafting slave if you take the craft feat.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5i8n?Creati ... -small-fee
My character has been killed in his sleep for doing that. Just saying.

For worshipping the god of money and asking for a 10% contribution?

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:36 pm

It's totally in-character to do that, but it throws WBL out the window even harder than crafting does (one character will be decked out, the others will be less so). For the MC's sake it's much better to just say "no charging extra on crafted items," or, better yet, "no using these shitty crafting rules."

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:43 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:It's totally in-character to do that, but it throws WBL out the window even harder than crafting does (one character will be decked out, the others will be less so).

I don't know what to tell you. For every crafting feat, there will be characters who benefit more from that feat and characters who benefit less. For instance, a fighter will benefit much more from Craft Arms & Armor and a wizard will benefit much more from Craft Wand. The idea that craft feats should result in even benefit for everyone is a non-starter.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:27 pm

hogarth wrote:
virgil wrote:My character has been killed in his sleep for doing that. Just saying.
For worshipping the god of money and asking for a 10% contribution?

I've seen [player characters] murder each other for less.
People can get straight up irate about the little things.

-e-
Yes, I guess it is kind of an important distinction.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:37 pm

Wrathzog wrote: I've seen players murder each other for less.

I hope you mean PCs, not players!

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:54 pm

hogarth wrote:
virgil wrote:
Slade wrote:Some PF people are arguing whether it is fair to charge 10% for crafting magic items (basically you save party members 40% of market price, you give them it for 60% of cost and get 10% of that for your time).

Some of them are saying it is theft to charge them any amount.
Apparently, you need to be the crafting slave if you take the craft feat.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5i8n?Creati ... -small-fee
My character has been killed in his sleep for doing that. Just saying.
For worshipping the god of money and asking for a 10% contribution?

For being a part of a mercenary group formed/hired by a third party. There was an NPC in the party adventuring with us for awhile, who had Brew Potion, and charged full market price the entire way; nobody batted an eye or cared.

Granted, there was also my character not being willing to help the CN barbarian attack the pirate town at level 3. And not a stealthy target assassination plan either, but a "storm the gates and slaughter them like it was a small goblin camp" plan. That compounded matters and got my character killed in his sleep.

That was a close fight with the barbarian, too. Almost killed him instead.

That's part of the problem in general with this stuff. Players have different expectations for this stuff, and it partly relates to their goals, which will vary.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:51 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:It's totally in-character to do that, but it throws WBL out the window even harder than crafting does (one character will be decked out, the others will be less so). For the MC's sake it's much better to just say "no charging extra on crafted items," or, better yet, "no using these shitty crafting rules."

That char with a little bit extra wealth also has one less useful feat to actually use in combat though, so that pretty much evens out imo.
Though yeah I throw out the crafting rules and replace them with my own if I dm myself too.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:32 am

Well, yes, but PF nerfed feats pretty damn hard so more money is likely better.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:27 am

True, but that is why they only tack on a 5% of the total item cost charge.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu May 10, 2012 11:05 am

It looks like Pathfinder Online has jumped on the Kickstarter bandwagon:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/167 ... ology-demo

What's that? You don't remember Pathfinder Online, Ryan Dancey's proposed Pathfinder MMO that's supposed to be like a fantasy EVE? Me neither.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu May 10, 2012 11:33 am

Yeah, who'd have thought PF would get an MMO before 4E?

Also, note that this isn't a funding drive for the game. It's funding for the tech demo that they'll show potential investors so the investors will give them money to make the game. It's funding their funding drive (in turn for a monthly-subscription thing). What is this, Inception?

So for Wasteland 2 Kickstarter, $30 gets you the game (DRM free), downloadable DRM free digital soundtrack by Mark Morgan and digital concept art book + Extra Digital Downloadable copy of game DRM free for PC or MAC OSX or Linux + Exclusive Ranger portrait collection + Access to Four episode Video Dev Blog. Also receive a Novella on the Wasteland 2 world created by Chris Avellone."

For this, $1000 lets you playtest the alpha. SOUNDS LIKE A BARGAIN!

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu May 10, 2012 1:10 pm

Koumei wrote:Also, note that this isn't a funding drive for the game. It's funding for the tech demo that they'll show potential investors so the investors will give them money to make the game. It's funding their funding drive (in turn for a monthly-subscription thing). What is this, Inception?

"We came up with funding for our funding drive!"

"We need to go deeper."