Cleric vs Psion: No Contest, Right?

[Aktariel]

So my friend and I were debating, and he was like, "I'm sorry. Psions are so much better than clerics."

And I, having hung out here enough, was like, "No way!"

But I didn't have enough evidence to refute him. Not on the spot, anyway.

So I came to you.

This ties back into a question that I've long had, which was, "Why exactly are clerics and wizards [and druids] so good? Even at lower levels? I mean, they have to prepare spells. Don't they get boned?"

So again, I come to you, seeking enlightenment.

Can anyone find it in their hearts to explain thoroughly what makes Clerics tick? And be the badass motherf**kers I know they truly are?

I know it involves DMM:Persist, Divine Favor, and casting in an antimagic field, but what about at lower levels? In a hypothetical campaign we're about to start [Quite possibly Expedition to Ravenloft], we'd start at about 6th level and go from there. Let's assume that going nova is acceptable; let us also craft an alternate hypothetical world where we do have 2-3 encounters a day, which is apt to be slightly more realistic.

Allowed books are most likely core, the Completes, Ravenloft, and not very much else. PHB II, if I have anything to say about it.

[Cielingcat]

Preparing spells isn't a disadvantage. They can prepare spells from a list of every cleric spell ever, and they get to choose again every single day.

The point of the cleric is that by selecting domains you get one shtick that surpasses anything anyone else can do (like Summoning and whatever to be a badass summoner) and then you also get every cleric spell ever and can surpass them at everything else. You get to walk around singing "anything you can do I can do better" and then you kick them in the nuts.

[tzor]

Clerics do have to "prepare" spells every day (but not all at once). They also get "substitutions." They have a larger list to select from each day.

A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once.

...

A good cleric (or a cleric of a good deity) can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell. An evil cleric (or a cleric of an evil deity) can spontaneously cast an inflict spell in place of a prepared spell (one that is not a domain spell) of the same level or higher. Each neutral cleric of a neutral deity either spontaneously casts cure spells like a good cleric or inflict spells like an evil one, depending on which option the player chooses when creating the character. The divine energy of the spell that the cure or inflict spell substitutes for is converted into the cure or inflict spell as if that spell had been prepared all along.

[Aktariel]

OK... so what spells/feats/tricks make them cheese?

EDIT: I've been reading about this "Cleric Archer..." but it still doesn't make that much sense to me...

EDIT STILL: Is there a list somewhere of must-have cleric spells?

Again, my concern is mostly with lower levels, such as 6-10.

[Fwib]

1191349942[/unixtime]]Clerics do have to "prepare" spells every day (but not all at once). They also get "substitutions." They have a larger list to select from each day.

A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once.

...

A good cleric (or a cleric of a good deity) can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell. An evil cleric (or a cleric of an evil deity) can spontaneously cast an inflict spell in place of a prepared spell (one that is not a domain spell) of the same level or higher. Each neutral cleric of a neutral deity either spontaneously casts cure spells like a good cleric or inflict spells like an evil one, depending on which option the player chooses when creating the character. The divine energy of the spell that the cure or inflict spell substitutes for is converted into the cure or inflict spell as if that spell had been prepared all along.

Where did you quote that from? I am fairly sure that clerics do have to mem all their spells at once, once a day. Admittedly, there are lots of ways to get various spells spontaneously and stuff like (Greater) Anyspell

[technomancer]

Well, the SRD is a good start

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

er...

[Username17]

Like Wizards, Clerics can leave slots open to fill with whatever they want. And since whatever is literally whatever in a world where you automatically know every spell in every splat book ever printed - that's a big deal.

But still often not worth bothering with, because the Cleric can seriously just compete with anyone on any playing field. While the DMM Persist or Quicken makes an awesome buff-machine warrior replacement, that's not even required for anything.

The Psion is only halfway decent as a Blaster. And a Cleric gets fucking hold person as a 2nd level spell for no reason. At 3rd level they get wrack, and at 4th level they get straight up doomtide. Holy shit! And they pay absolutely nothing for this. They aren't sacrificing hit points, or armor class, or good saves (theirs is one of the best in the game), they don't even have to be a death caster every day if they don't want to. If they decide to go do something else, like be a fighter, they can just get up and do that.

In fact, they can be a perfectly respectable blaster - better than a Psion even - without spending any actual character resources at all. They just decide "I should have a 4th level AoE SoD that automatically repeat casts - that would be awesome!" And lo, it is so.

Now let's cheese it. As a Cleric you get lesser planar ally and Karma Beads and Candles of Cheating. These spells and items are individually more powerful than the entire Psion character and are all Cleric only.

-Username17

[Aktariel]

1191360256[/unixtime]]
But still often not worth bothering with, because the Cleric can seriously just compete with anyone on any playing field. While the DMM Persist or Quicken makes an awesome buff-machine warrior replacement, that's not even required for anything.

The Psion is only halfway decent as a Blaster. And a Cleric gets fucking hold person as a 2nd level spell for no reason. At 3rd level they get wrack, and at 4th level they get straight up doomtide. Holy shit! And they pay absolutely nothing for this. They aren't sacrificing hit points, or armor class, or good saves (theirs is one of the best in the game), they don't even have to be a death caster every day if they don't want to. If they decide to go do something else, like be a fighter, they can just get up and do that.

In fact, they can be a perfectly respectable blaster - better than a Psion even - without spending any actual character resources at all. They just decide "I should have a 4th level AoE SoD that automatically repeat casts - that would be awesome!" And lo, it is so.

Sounds awesome... like I said, is there a spell list somewhere? Or a few good spells that I should take a look at?


EDIT: Let's tack on, "Suggestions for a build to beat the shit out of a Psion mano-a-mindo at 6th level?"

[Iaimeki]

1191362485[/unixtime]]

Sounds awesome... like I said, is there a spell list somewhere? Or a few good spells that I should take a look at?

EDIT: Let's tack on, "Suggestions for a build to beat the shit out of a Psion mano-a-mindo at 6th level?"

Depends on what, exactly, you mean by this: turn someone mind's into Swiss cheese during combat? Squeeze answers out of an unwilling victim?

Standard core alternatives for owning people in combat include command (mostly mentionable for its property of being a juggle spell, though not as good a one as e.g., colorspray), hold person, and greater command. For squeezing answers out of people, zone of truth, lesser geas, and quest (note that "Tell me everything you know about X, and how to do Y," is a perfectly fine quest by the rules). Also in the core, the cleric has far better defense spells against mind control that a psion: protection from and magic circle again early on, and later on, some domains give mindblank.

Outside the core, the sky is really the limit. Using the PHB2's domain spontaneity rule and some noncore domains, it's easily possible to just destroy a psion at mind-fucking. With the Dominate domain, you get the commands, suggestion at level 3, dominate person at level 4(!), sundry high-level spells that let you turn people into your mindslaves forever, and free SF (Enchantment) to ensure that you have better DCs on all of these effects. The Mind domain makes you crazy good at sifting through other people's thoughts to find what you want, with detect thoughts, probe thoughts (the prior on crack[/i], and brain spider (mass thought-reading). Tyrant (CW) gives you a +2 bonus on DCs for compulsions, the commands, fear discern lies as a 3rd-level spell, quest, and mass charm monster. Mentalism (PGF) gives you detect thoughts and modify memory, along with a few other generic "talk to the party" mental contact spells.

And since a cleric can spontaneously convert to all these spells--they can choose to prep a bunch of spells as a blaster and then just switch over to screwing with people's minds midday.

[Fwib]

Where does it say that clerics can leave slots empty and then fill them later? I thought that was a wizard-exclusive ability.


[edit] Looking at page 180 of the PHB, it certainly seems to imply that divine spellcasters can leave slots empty and then fill them later... ... well, you live and learn.

[Aktariel]

Hmm. I suppose I should have been clearer. "Mindo" was just my lame attempt at a pun.

Let me put it this way. Kick a psion's ass as fast and hard as possible, using whatever means necessary. [This time I'm talking about combat.]

Cleric 6, obviously. But what else?

[JonSetanta]

Now, is it the Cleric spell selection, the Cleric Hit Die of d8, BAB 3/4, Fort+Will, or combination of these that gives the Cleric this advantage?

[Bigode]

BAB's totally irrelevant. Spell selection and possibly saves - BTW, there's a spell, (divine agility) in Complete Munchkin that gives good Reflexes (touch range, 1 round/level, level 5, +4 Dex, Spring Attack).

[JonSetanta]

Ah so that's what the spell was called. I remember Divine Agility function but not the name, it came to mind when I first learned of Cleric-Archer but couldn't find it twice...

You lose casting ability when in "Rogue mode" don't you?

[Bigode]

Do you lose it in fighter mode?

[JonSetanta]

*checks Divine Power and Divine Agility*

My mistake, that's Tenser's Transformation that cuts off any reasonable success in combat.
Divine Agility, according to Spell Compendium, only gives DEX+10. L5, lasts 1r/level.

[Bigode]

I had checked CD; that's quite a change.

[tzor]

1191357058[/unixtime]]Where did you quote that from? I am fairly sure that clerics do have to mem all their spells at once, once a day. Admittedly, there are lots of ways to get various spells spontaneously and stuff like (Greater) Anyspell

The Hypertext d20 SRD

If you look at it, there is a time of day where the cleric must pray for spells: "If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells." But in the next section it does mention that he does not have to pray for all of his spells at that time.

[Crissa]

So he has to pray at the appropriate time, else he loses his slots.

But he doesn't have to actually ask for something for every slot that day. As far as I can remember, all spellcasters have had an option to leave a slot open for later and have a longer way to fill it later.

-Crissa

[Judging__Eagle]

Yes, 15 minutes per spell slot I believe.

[JonSetanta]

Code: Select all

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

But what's this about 15 minutes to ready an empty slot? A house rule? I like it, but no trace in the PHB (as far as I saw)

[Judging__Eagle]

I think it's in the hard copy version of the PHB. Not sure though.

[Fwib]

1191532904[/unixtime]]But what's this about 15 minutes to ready an empty slot? A house rule? I like it, but no trace in the PHB (as far as I saw)

Check PHBp178 - I think it says that the minimum time you take to prepare spells is 15 minutes. (for a wizard at least, but presumably everyone else is the same)

[Aktariel]

Sooo..

DM changed her mind, and we're starting at first level. Doubt we'll play Expedition; so a good all around utility cleric is what I'm looking for.

I was considering either cleric or a druid at this point; anyone have any preferences?

Or any help with builds?

Thanks.

[rapanui]

Dude, just min/max your WIS, select the killer spells mentioned above when you get the relevant spell slot, and ruin the game. You're going to be good at low levels, but utterly unstoppable once you get access to 4th level spells or higher. Hold Person is a save or die effect that you can cast when your character is 3rd level.

Really, owning the game with a Cleric or Druid is not hard.