D&DNext: Playtest Review

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Fri May 25, 2012 8:19 pm

We could make the same point for researcher. What else is in the library? Scrolls, spelbooks? Can the sage cast helpful spells? Etc.

Think "there is nothing useful the wizard can do, so he doesn't feel like a wizard" will qualify as a combat they'll take seriously?

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri May 25, 2012 8:35 pm

CapnTthePirateG wrote:We could make the same point for researcher. What else is in the library? Scrolls, spelbooks? Can the sage cast helpful spells? Etc.

Oh, potentially I suppose. But I numbers for things a blacksmith can make, so it seemed an easier point to make than whatever bullshit they currently have cribbed down for scrolls and spellbooks, but aren't sharing.

Think "there is nothing useful the wizard can do, so he doesn't feel like a wizard" will qualify as a combat they'll take seriously?

Not sure to be honest. I may spend a little time this weekend paging through the Wizard's forums. It is hard to say how best to emotionally manipulate people before you know how they are reacting. I'm just pretty certain that emotional manipulation and feeling is the best way to get any real change out of this process.

I'm pondering how to phrase the issue of skills at the moment. 'Since non-weapon proficiencies in 1st and 2nd involved rolling under the relevant ability score and 3rd and 4th had set DCs for skills, the current skill system just doesn't feel like D&D.' Its a start, but it needs something to really catch at the gut reaction. I need something either really awful or something from a competitor to compare it to. GURPS? It has been a while since I looked at GURPS. Maybe warhammer quest or the current WFRP...

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Fri May 25, 2012 8:54 pm

Well, over on EnWorld they are all fapping. Considering they like their MTP...

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri May 25, 2012 8:59 pm

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Well, over on EnWorld they are all fapping. Considering they like their MTP...

Not at all surprising. I was posting a bit on ENworld during the lead up to 4th edition, and actually got a banhammer threat from an ENworld mod because my sig suggested it was more a game of superhero chess than a fantasy RPG.

With a few exceptions, the Enworld inhabitants are a bunch of lapdogs fawning for scraps from WotC, and generally find a kick in the face is completely indistinguishable from a t-bone.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Fri May 25, 2012 9:16 pm

Oh, did you have the "4e is a game of superpowered heroic mutants from outer space" one? Yeah, I'm with you there.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri May 25, 2012 9:27 pm

On rpgnet people keep pointing out that the armour rules suck and that fighers suck (mostly because they are boring)

- Edit: and I've seen some people say crazy stuff like: The wizard is overpowered because the game uses saving throws instead of attacks.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Fri May 25, 2012 9:59 pm

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Oh, did you have the "4e is a game of superpowered heroic mutants from outer space" one? Yeah, I'm with you there.

I too am curious about this, I found that quote blasphemous back then, nowadays it makes it sound like 4th edition is more awesome than it actually is. I like super powers, heroicness, and mutants are always pretty cool, after all Gambit of X-men is a mutant. However yeah, 4th edition is probably anything but superheroic, maybe compared to how this 5th edition playtest is sounding, as seriously 5ft walls are a big deal??

I'm liking the idea behind the Trader background from whats discussed here, I've yet to download 5th edition, I guess I'll go do so later at some point. Also find it humorous that being "Drunk" is like the best status condition ever, so there's some things to find a kick out of this game I guess.

FatR wrote:I just don't see any reasons to prefer it over any of abundant low-fantasy systems out there.

I wanted a simpler fantasy superhero game, not because there is a shortage of low-powered dungeon crawl games...

Amen Brotha on those two points, "especially" the last part, they need to ramp this game the hell up, or else there's no point to 5th edition.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Fri May 25, 2012 10:01 pm

On wizards you have a weird mix of blind fanboy love and complaints that it listened too much to 2nd/3rd edition players and didn't take enough from 4e.

Overall I have high enough hopes that I'll probably buy it. Splatbooks are a low maybe.

Remember, they said this was a the most basic version of the rules that will exist. The advanced versions that will exist side by side aren't read for us yet. (haven't been written/don't exist) Being ever the optimist, I have to hope that the more advanced version includes actual rules for stuff. I also have to assume that everyone will default to using the advanced rules within a week of release.

I assume the basic version is just one big tea party, and the advanced one will have rules. Again, optimist.

K · Post by K » Fri May 25, 2012 11:02 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
K wrote:Wizard's most notable no-save spells are Sleep and Ray of Frost.
No.

Sleep tosses down an AoE no-save effect that halves moment rates AND for a save will put to sleep the wounded enemies or low HP mooks. For a lot of monsters, that's basically auto-killing a group of melee monsters because the party can ranged attack them to death or move and attack (again, to death). Monsters like Orcs can't use their awesome charge stuff and monsters with dangerous special abilities can't close and use those abilities.
]

No. Sleep gives them a movement penalty until they take any damage or someone spends an action slapping them. It's a 20 foot radius sphere of enemies losing some movement or one action, whichever is less. You can't use it for root kiting, because if you hit them with anything at all, it instantly wears off. You can't use it for effective crowd control, because any group of enemies could slap each other awake with one action each and then come after you. it's just bad.

Forcing an entire group of monsters to lose a turn slapping each other to get rid of the crippling movement penalty is awesome. It's even better because it allows no save.

This means that it's going to be at least an automatic free turn of not being attacked every time you cast it because of the movement penalty or the wasted action.

At worse, it's enough combat control to give the party a prep round to use buffs.

At 20th level, you are probably still going to be casting Sleep all the time when facing groups of monsters, especially considering that the good Wizard stuff seems highly ranged.

Frank wrote: Any spell that requires an attack roll isn't really different from a spell that allows a save.

But it is because it seems like it's going to be rather easy to get Advantage on things and very hard to force Disadvantage for saves. For example, simply attacking with Ray of Frost from hiding means that suddenly your 65% has gone way up. (Also attacks auto-succeed on a 20 where saves do not auto-succeed or fail, but that's only a tiny advantage.)

That being said, Ray of Frost doesn't need to work every turn to be useful. Remember, there are no AoOs any more so it really can go "Monster moves and attacks, players attack and Ray of Frost works, players move, monster loses actions because he can move and no one is in melee range" for every round that Ray of Frost works with players ranged attacking things down on any round the monster is stuck.

This means that working even 65% of the time means 65% less melee monster attacks from a single monster. Hell, even for a monster with ranged attacks the players can force its ranged attacks to be Disadvantaged by having longer ranged weapons and forcing the monster to fire outside of the optimal range.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri May 25, 2012 11:05 pm

Well if the monster has no ranged attack you could also:
move next to it -> melee attack -> move out of range again
every single turn.

- Edit to quote the rules:

Movement in Combat: You can break up your movement to move both before and after your action.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri May 25, 2012 11:25 pm

I'm pointing out the fail of the wizard to mearls on twitter. This should be interesting...

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Fri May 25, 2012 11:27 pm

Or you could simply Ray of Frost it, move next to it, and you force disadvantage that way since it's now in melee.

Ghremdal · Post by **Ghremdal** » Sat May 26, 2012 2:10 am

This is my first post on this forum, but I have to make it so vitriolitic.

I just want to say that I have been roleplaying for some 15 odd years, starting with ADnD. I liked ADnD. I like 3.5. I even like some aspects of 4th edition but find it a mathematically flawed system. I have been continually using the internet since 1994 and have never had the urge to rage against anything.

I'm generally a positive guy, willing to see the merits of most things.

Until may 24th, 2012 that is. This "playtest" is such a pile of crap that it broke that barrier inside me. I feel sorry that I wasted the paper to print out this crap. I can't believe that someone got paid to write this.

What is worse is that some people are still swallowing this crap and smiling after it. That means that WotC won't receive its brutal, swift and cathartic end, but a slow agonizing torture where and during which things won't shape up for the hobby.

I'm sorry this is the first site I posted this, the rage was just too strong. I need a place to vent and consolidate my thoughts a bit without the fanboys.

Ill formulate a reply more hateful then this once I sober up, on sites I frequent for more then 7 years, bans be damned. I don't care, this shit is a insult to human intelligence and sets us all back 10 years.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sat May 26, 2012 2:16 am

The thing about this that makes me unhappy...is honestly the feeling that this will do nothing good to advance the game.
5th edition won't do as well as 4th and pathfinder will keep on being the official 3.5 resource and if they do it just right marketing advertising they'll still just keep the title as most sold rpg.
Also the I hate "optimizers make the game bad"; "give your DM, a blowjob" for continued adcancement is something they can just fuck off about.
So at the end of all this... what irks me is that I don't think anything will be different, in the gaming field. 3.X will still be the most played, the rest of us will look like "Wtf are they doing?" while the vast fanboy populace will take turns fapping for a bit till the pages lose shine and we'll be sitting right where they are.

Sashi · Post by **Sashi** » Sat May 26, 2012 2:49 am

There is a standard action called "hustle" which is (I shit you not) "you move your speed"

WTF? Even 3E had "You can do a move action as a standard action".

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat May 26, 2012 3:05 am

Ghremdal wrote:Ill formulate a reply more hateful then this once I sober up, on sites I frequent for more then 7 years, bans be damned. I don't care, this shit is a insult to human intelligence and sets us all back 10 years.

Don't leave! Stay! I don't know if you're aware of where you are, but believe me bud there's no bans coming here. That is in fact the most promising first post I have ever seen someone write here. Drunken, angry, insulting, demonstrative of an ability to think critically about game design. Stay here Ghremdal, learn how to channel your hate. I feel it in you, it is powerful.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Sat May 26, 2012 3:17 am

deanruel87 wrote:
Ghremdal wrote:Ill formulate a reply more hateful then this once I sober up, on sites I frequent for more then 7 years, bans be damned. I don't care, this shit is a insult to human intelligence and sets us all back 10 years.
Don't leave! Stay! I don't know if you're aware of where you are, but believe me bud there's no bans coming here. That is in fact the most promising first post I have ever seen someone write here. Drunken, angry, insulting, demonstrative of an ability to think critically about game design. Stay here Ghremdal, learn how to channel your hate. I feel it in you, it is powerful.

Indeed, the rage is strong with this one.

sake · Post by **sake** » Sat May 26, 2012 3:19 am

Well, if history repeats itself, the Wizard will have at least two years worth of nearly endless crunch updates thrown at it until it's a playable class by sheer infinite monkeys at typewriters default...

Granted, it'll still never actually feel like a 'Wizard' during any of that.

The Rogue's pretty fucked though. Can't be a good at combat, and can't be good at the skill system since the skill system doesn't even exist in any meaningful form Maybe if we're lucky some later splat book will have a new class that is basiclly just Rogue Only Allowed to Not Suck.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Sat May 26, 2012 4:03 am

Is it me, or are all the people over on EnWorld and the WoTC boards who are mindlessly squeeing about this while whining about "munchkins who knew the game and pointed out the RULES wrecked my boss fight! Whaaa!" getting exactly the shitty game they deserve?

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat May 26, 2012 4:07 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Is it me, or are all the people over on EnWorld and the WoTC boards who are mindlessly squeeing about this while whining about "munchkins who knew the game and pointed out the RULES wrecked my boss fight! Whaaa!" getting exactly the shitty game they deserve?

On the contrary, those retards are the DMs who are going to make their players' lives miserable with 5e, further driving people away from the game and slowly killing our hobby.

Now anyone who is saying shit similar to that but is obviously a player either yes, does deserve this, or is a great bullshitter who will ruin the game for the rest of his table by sweet talking the DM, then see above.

Sashi · Post by **Sashi** » Sat May 26, 2012 4:11 am

Are we ignoring Sneak Attack for the rogue? If the actual numbers on the character sheets weren't all fucked up, a sneak-attacking rogue and a fighter would be almost exactly equal:

Fighter with Greataxe: 1d12+3+2 = 11
Rogue with Shortsword: 1d6+1d6+3 = 10

If the rogue gets a sneak-attack die every level and the Fighter continues to get +1 bonuses every other level, the Rogue's damage output will quickly shoot past the Fighter.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat May 26, 2012 4:19 am

Sashi wrote:Are we ignoring Sneak Attack for the rogue? If the actual numbers on the character sheets weren't all fucked up, a sneak-attacking rogue and a fighter would be almost exactly equal:

Fighter with Greataxe: 1d12+3+2 = 11
Rogue with Shortsword: 1d6+1d6+3 = 10

If the rogue gets a sneak-attack die every level and the Fighter continues to get +1 bonuses every other level, the Rogue's damage output will quickly shoot past the Fighter.

This is a fairly good point. The rogue can't actually do much with his skills, but he's still better at it than the fighter. On the other hand, the rogue has better damage numbers, similar to-hit (only +1 lower), and if he played with his equipment a little he could have AC 3 better than the Fighter (by virtue of Chain Shirt being 25gp less than Ring Mail, but giving the same AC bonus and allowing dex to AC). The rogue may suck at being a ninja, but he's probably the most solid combatant in the group.

On a totally unrelated note, over on GitP someone mentioned how they loved that ability scores now represent a training as well as raw talent. To me this just raises a question: Why is it ability scores don't increase more? I mean, if ability scores represent your training in a given area, it makes sense that high level adventurers will have really high ability scores. Yet as far as we can tell, they're intended to stay more or less the same all the way up to max level, only gods get high ability scores. I mean seriously, what?

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat May 26, 2012 4:55 am

Damn it. I wanted the Rogue to use that ambusher thing, but there's no way to re-hide. Oh, wait, one rule says it's an action to hide in combat, another says you can't hide in combat because people are aware. Oh, and you can't attack someone you can't see, but when you do attack them you have disadvantage, unless you're hiding too, because they cancel.

No worries with rule clarity and suspension of disbelief then. OK, OK, not finished, some of my half-ass house rules no doubt look similar.

But just mathematically, in AD&D and BD&D backstab was +4 to hit and +1d8 damage, now it's ~+4 and +1d6, only most monsters have far more hit points. This is a worse backstab than oldschool, and far worse than 3e where you can get three attacks before they stop taking sneak damage at first level. The extra dice progression means little on the single attack limit. It's just so weak.

EDIT: How are people imagining they get advantage every round? /EDIT

That cat familiar is awesome. Totally retro-stupid. I'm impressed. The memorisation time for spells seems completely pointless when we're not even measuring time out of combat and it's so tiny anyway.

Wearing a grounded metal shell still makes you vulnerable to electricity, rather than, say, wearing leather and holding a long metal weapon. So backwards physics 4eva. More retro-stupid, really.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Sat May 26, 2012 5:03 am

Tussock, you BS the DM! Your DM can make the right judgement call all the time!

Sashi · Post by **Sashi** » Sat May 26, 2012 5:05 am

Just noticed that you don't get advantage from flanking, it appears Rogues are expected to get advantage by hiding. Which means the whole thing's just a crapshoot of how the DM will let you hide. Can Halfling Rogues hide behind their allies and sling stones? Or will all the enemies be "aware" of you after you've attacked once?