Yet another balance idea...

[fectin]

So, wizards are just plain better than fighters. Sure, with enough effort, the fighter can keep up with the wizard on the battlefield, but then the fight ends:
The wizard goes home to his personal demiplane mansion outside of time and continues thinking up ways to turn a few minutes of spare time into global healthcare, while bathing in nymphs.
The fighter goes back to his hovel and continues thinking up ways to turn water into urine, while bathing in shit.

Various folks have pointed out that there is no amount of role-protection for the fighter which can allow him to be the wizard's peer. You could flat-out remove the wizard's "attack" option, and he wouldn't even notice, let alone care. So, what if we do it the other way and erode the wizard's role protection?

How's this:

Everyone can cast spells. Wizards are just good at it. Everyone has a caster level equal their spellcraft ranks, and can cast wizard spells they know with a spell level no higher than half their character level (do not round). Anyone can decipher spells like a wizard, and anyone can keep a spellbook like a wizard. Casting spells takes an additional 10 minutes/spell level, and requires a magic diagram on the floor (drawing the diagram is quick and easy and the diagrams are reusable, but you do have to stay put while casting). Cantrips take 5 minutes. This doesn't require memorization, or expend uses; you are casting the spell from first principles each time. In all other ways, you cast like a wizard: arcane spell failure is in, you must have intelligence >= 10+spell level, concentration checks might be required, etc.

Each diagram is different, and it's arbitrarily easy to determine what spell each one could be used to cast. If you know the spell, you know the diagram; otherwise it's a simple knowledge arcana check.

Wizards have access to this system (just like everyone else) but otherwise keep working as before.

Wizards are still pretty boss. They get spells earlier than fighters, and can usefully use them in a fight. at the same time, at level 10, everyone with INT can learn and cast overland flight (it takes 25 minutes, and lasts 7 hours with maxed spellcraft). It does mean that there are a lot more mooks with invisible servants, and floating disk caravans are viable, but that's not exactly a bad thing.


Crap, or worth refining?

[John Magnum]

Well, the Intelligence requirement basically soft-locks martial classes out of doing even the brutally gimped magic they'd have access to. You're actually not really giving them a whole lot of new stuff.

Ultimately, this system doesn't actually bring up any non-casters to caster par. It's kind of annoying on first glance, because "Make literally everybody into a mage" is not going to be a super appealing bit of fluff to people who actually want to play VAHs. If you wanna tell those people to fuck off, just take those classes out of the game and literally write "Sneaky wizard", "Really tough wizard", "Martial arts wizard" classes from scratch and have a real system built around everyone being a caster.

On the other hand, this doesn't really bring anyone up to the wizard's level. A Fighter or a Rogue feels small in the pants because a Wizard can, with very little effort, do better than them at their primary schtick. This situation lets a Fighter or Rogue spend GREAT effort becoming way, way worse at magic than the Wizard. This is not really a very significant reversal.

[hogarth]

Some people are more or less satisfied by making everyone a spellcaster. Nevertheless, there are many players out there who want to play something more like D&D where there are dedicated non-magical classes (NOTWITHSTANDING the fact that they suck).

So you've solved the problem for people who didn't have a problem in the first place because they were already playing wizards or clerics. And you haven't solved the problem for people who like to play fighters and rogues because they'll be off playing some different game instead.

[fectin]

This situation lets a Fighter or Rogue spend GREAT effort becoming way, way worse at magic than the Wizard. This is not really a very significant reversal.

This part stuck out. Why is it that much effort? The requirements are "have intelligence and put ranks in spellcraft"

[ishy]

This sounds like a difficult way to just give everyone the wizard class and allow people to take different specializations.

Like for example: one is a summoner, the other focusses on invisibility and attack boosting spells etc etc.

[Sashi]

I can get behind this.

One thing I like in 4E is the "Ritual Caster" feat. The actual implementation sucks for a number of reasons, but the idea that the guy who does all of the utility magic like scrying, overland transport, demon binding, and the rest is just "The guy who chose to have that narrative role" instead of "always the wizard" is really attractive.

It lets you do things like have a "war mage" who never learned Overland Flight because it's not a spell about hurting people and that's OK because the Rogue "does the petty magic".

It's also great to have a fighter drop Silence and Invisibility on the party so they can get the drop on a dragon, and then batter it to death an axe. Then while he's setting up the teleportation circle to get the party back home and the Cleric asks him why he never casts magic in combat he says "Magic is a tool, not a weapon *holds up axe* this is a weapon."

[Sashi]

This part stuck out. Why is it that much effort? The requirements are "have intelligence and put ranks in spellcraft"

Yeah, no. It doesn't matter who casts Gate so that the party can travel to Bitopia, or have a sit-down talk with Dispater and saying that you need a 19int and boku spellcraft is just putting a stealth "you must be this Wizard to ride" sign on all the high-level narrative power.

[John Magnum]

"Have intelligence" is a huge requirement. Remember, for non-casters Intelligence does NOTHING. Even going from 10 to 14 is going to require bringing down attributes they actually need for their class schticks, and all that lets them do is be really shitty at casting fourth-level spells. If you're going to invest in Intelligence, be a Wizard so it's actually worth half a shit.

[K]

The problem isn't that Fighters can't cast spells, but that Fighters aren't given good enough abilities.

The Fighter could be given "non-magic" abilities like the ability to lead a community, and then when he returns home he sits in his own harem of nymphs (who stay with him because he's such a great leader) and solve problems by delegating them to his staff of mages and armies of peasants (who work for him because he's a great leader).

Then, the Wizard's plan to set up a magical Fabricate factory in order to provide super-cheap goods for the people is on par with the Fighter's plan to do the same with his ability to inspire and create an order of fanatical crafter/samaritans who will set up real factories and use the profits to subsidize super-cheap goods for the people.

[deaddmwalking]

If magic is something you learn by training, it makes sense that anyone should be able to cast spells.

Giving everyone access to learning spells is not a bad thing.

I'd prefer that other classes have the ability to learn a small number of spells that they could actually cast in combat. Like the rogue might want to learn invisibility instead of hoping to find a 20,000 gp item or rely on the wizard to help him out.

Something like allowing a class to learn a spell by spending 2 skill points (cross-class) with the other requirements might also work.

Combined with a requirement for a certain amount of Knowledge (arcana) would really encourage people that start learning spells to really max that out. If you prefer most people knowing a small number of spells, better to leave that out.

Finally, it would work best with a 'spell point system', since there needs to be a limit to prevent 'spamming' magical attacks. If you're using standard Wizard spell slots, you might just give a character the spell 1/day each time they learn it...

But certainly, if magic is a skill (like carpentry) that one masters by practice, you would expect there would be dabblers. Not professionals, but they might try making a bookshelf every now and again.

[John Magnum]

If magic is something you learn by training, it makes sense that anyone should be able to cast spells.

Isn't that what multiclassing wizard means?

[deaddmwalking]

No.

In standard D&D, only a few classes have access to spell-casting. In the case of clerics, it makes sense that only true devotion allows someone to cast the divine spells granted as a gift by a very real and knowable deity. But wizardly fluff makes it sound like a skill that anyone can learn - no different than an actual craft.

Most people on the boards probably don't know much about carpentry (which I was using as an example), but they all know that they could study it in their spare time and probably get pretty good. Not as good as someone who devotes their life to it - you're not going to become a master craftsman during evenings and weekends. But you will learn how to do some of the basics.

If casting a spell involves 'commiting a particular pattern of waving your fingers, incanting words, and using the right mystic ingredients' it's pretty much a recipe. Now there may be a 'mental part' or some 'committment of internal energy reserves to power the spell', but that is explicitly NOT part of the fluff.

Now, if you want to skip becoming a master carpenter, but you want to learn how to make one thing well (maybe a chest?), you could probably master that. Then, if someone asks you to make a boat, you'll probably not be able to do it. There are different techniques involved and while they're in the same realm, they're different enough that you'd need to go back and do some more specialized training.

So, if magic is like other skills that can be 'mastered' on a task level, there's no reason the fighter can't spend some nights practicing a cantrip instead of practicing the backstroke around the fire (is that how you add ranks in swimming?). It doesn't necessarily mean he's not working on his 'fighter skills' like weapon practice...

But it's certainly not to every taste.

[erik]

I started writing up 0-9 class spell lists for every single 3e class, but got distracted and then burnt out. Alas.

Whenever I get around to polishing my next attempt at a fantasy heartbreaker, anyone will certainly have the option to learn to cast spells. Just gonna have a generic spell list and grant some particular spells for free to caster classes (and casters likely will have more invested into making their offensive casting skill/attribute higher along with various perks).

Learning some rune reading and cantrips is something just about any civilized person ought be doing as a part of their education.

[fectin]

If magic is something you learn by training, it makes sense that anyone should be able to cast spells.

Giving everyone access to learning spells is not a bad thing.

I'd prefer that other classes have the ability to learn a small number of spells that they could actually cast in combat. Like the rogue might want to learn invisibility instead of hoping to find a 20,000 gp item or rely on the wizard to help him out.

Something like allowing a class to learn a spell by spending 2 skill points (cross-class) with the other requirements might also work.

Combined with a requirement for a certain amount of Knowledge (arcana) would really encourage people that start learning spells to really max that out. If you prefer most people knowing a small number of spells, better to leave that out.

Finally, it would work best with a 'spell point system', since there needs to be a limit to prevent 'spamming' magical attacks. If you're using standard Wizard spell slots, you might just give a character the spell 1/day each time they learn it...

But certainly, if magic is a skill (like carpentry) that one masters by practice, you would expect there would be dabblers. Not professionals, but they might try making a bookshelf every now and again.

If you want to break in to combat casting, there's already feats that let you do that. Taking Extra Slot would let you memorize a single spell, so a rogue could grab the ability to cast invisibility at level 6. It's not a good option though, just like a wizard stabbing faces isn't a good option. On the plus side, you can keep changing it to better abilities as you level up by spending cash to learn new spells, so it's already better than most feats.

[deaddmwalking]

Actually, I already have a system I play where everyone can learn spells. But, as you say, wizards are the best, by far. But I thought I'd throw out some ideas that might work under the 3rd edition rules.

[unnamednpc]

Yeah, no, count me in the "Fighters don't need magic, they need meaningful abilities in and out of combat. So not "Cleave, Cleaver, Cleavest", but actual meaningful shit on par with what the grown ups get.
I coughed up a quick draft of how you could approach that in the other current Mimimimi Fighters thread. The gist is, go wild. A high level fighter should be more "god" than man.
Everyone else is, too...

[erik]

Yeah, no, count me in the "Fighters don't need magic, they need meaningful abilities in and out of combat. So not "Cleave, Cleaver, Cleavest", but actual meaningful shit on par with what the grown ups get.

The gist is, go wild. A high level fighter should be more "god" than man.

The stuff on par with what the grown-ups get is magic.

And how can you connect "no magic" with "should be more god than man"? Sense that makes no.

Away with your gibberish.

[Sashi]

So, if magic is like other skills that can be 'mastered' on a task level, there's no reason the fighter can't spend some nights practicing a cantrip instead of practicing the backstroke around the fire (is that how you add ranks in swimming?). It doesn't necessarily mean he's not working on his 'fighter skills' like weapon practice...

But it's certainly not to every taste.

This is the way 3.5 works and it suuuuuucks. Being a 17th level martial character and taking the 1st level of Wizard is essentially saying "I would like to flush my 18th level down the toilet". Your damage spells do squat, 1st level buff spells are inconsequential, and even if sleep and color spray weren't off the table because of HD limits they'd be useless because your save DC's are completely off the RNG. You're better off having a decent UMD and carrying wands and scrolls of 1st level spells since they'll have the same caster level as you, can be off any spell list, and at your level are essentially free.

There's no way that giving a Fighter17/Wizard1 access to 9th level spells breaks the game. Hell, a lot of 18th level fighters are walking around with secret-class-ability-artifact-swords that can Forcecage 2/day or dominate monster on a critical hit. It's seriously not even a thing.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Pyromantic Dabbler
A Fire Mage offered to set your soul on fire. For some reason, you accepted.

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can use Produce Flame as an at-will SLA. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Burning Hands, Melt, and Resist Energy (Fire) once per hour each.

9: you can also cast Fireball, Heat Metal, and Empowered Flaming Sphere once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

14: you can also cast Fire Shield, Incendiary Cloud, and Wall of Fire once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

19: you can also cast Flame Strike, Extended Summon Monster VII (Fire Elementals only), and Quickened Scorching Ray 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

Special: The damage/healing dice for the SLAs granted by this feat are uncapped (For example, Fireball is not capped at 10d6 Fire damage). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.

Casual Hexxer
You can totally curdle a glass of milk with just one evil eye from 30 paces.

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can give someone in Medium range a -2 bullshit penalty on their d20 rolls until the beginning of your next turn as an at-will SLA that takes a swift action. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Corrupt Water (as the black dragon ability), Extended Bane, and Doom once per hour each.

9: you can also cast Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness (Long range instead of Medium, lasts 10 minutes per caster level), and Contagion once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

14: you can also cast Cursed Weather (as Control Weather, but it makes things like rains of frogs), Eyebite, and Blight once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

19: you can also cast Greater Bestow Curse, Finger of Death, and Soul Bind 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

Special: All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.

Curative acolyte
Someone has to carry the first-aid kit. Not you.

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can use Cure Minor Wounds as an at-will SLA that takes an attack action. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Cure Light Wounds, Delay Poison, and Purify Food and Drink once per hour each.

9: you can also cast Lesser Restoration, Remove Blindness/Deafness, and Remove Paralysis once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. Cure Light Wounds upgrades to Cure Moderate Wounds

14: you can also cast Raise Dead, Restoration, and Remove Curse once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. Cure Moderate Wounds upgrades to Cure Critical Wounds.

19: you can also cast Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Resurrection, and Greater Restoration 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. Cure Critical Wounds upgrades to Heal

Special: The damage/healing dice/mods for the SLAs granted by this feat are uncapped (For example, Cure Light Wounds is not capped at +5 to the hit points healed). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.

Magician
Nobody knows precisely how you can fit so many angelic badgers into your hat

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can use Prestidigitation as an at-will SLA. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Extended Summon Monster I, Hypnotism (1d4 hit dice for every 2 caster levels, minimum 2d4), and Ventriloquism once per hour each. You may treat a single piece of clothing as a Glove of Storing as long as it is on your immediate person (if taken away for more than a round, the item concealed inside emerges).

9: you can also cast Animate Rope, Suggestion, and Silent Image once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. You may now treat 2 pieces of clothing as Gloves of Storing as long as they are on your immediate person (if taken away for more than 1 round per level, the item concealed inside emerges).

14: you can also cast Mass Suggestion, Telekinesis, and Programmed Image once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. You may now treat 3 pieces of clothing as Gloves of Storing as long as they are on your immediate person (if taken away for more than 1 minute per level, the item concealed inside emerges. You can command it to emerge early as long as the item is in Short range).

19: you can also cast Greater Shadow Conjuration, Mislead, and Veil 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. You may now treat 4 pieces of clothing as Gloves of Storing as long as they are on your immediate person (if taken away for more than 1 hour per level, the item concealed inside emerges. You can command it to emerge early as long as the item is in Long range).

Special: All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.

[Blasted]

Nobody knows precisely how you can fit so many angelic badgers into your hat

Badger Badger Badger Snake! Snake!




Small things and all of that...

[unnamednpc]

The stuff on par with what the grown-ups get is magic.

And how can you connect "no magic" with "should be more god than man"? Sense that makes no.

Away with your gibberish.

The main reason no one will ever have nice things is because the idioterati will rather get their tiny kloaka twisted in playing bullshit semantics games than have any meaningful discussion.

This is a fucking game of make believe. Everthing that "happens" in the game is entirely dependent on the type of flavour used to describe it, because one roll of a d20 is functionally indistinguishable from another until you ascribe some sort of meaning to it.

The OP talks about giving everone Spells. I talk about not doing that. Instead, I talk about coming up with abilities that can have meaningful effects in the game, but are thematically different enough to make you feel like you are not doing the same thing the wizard does.
Then you come in and talk about how you are so dense you should basically collapse in on yourself any second.

[erik]

You may not believe it, but there are folks who have posted here and insisted upon fighters being completely non-magical, realistic, yet able to do completely supernatural and impossible feats. By your post, I interpreted it as though you were potentially endorsing that sort of silliness. If not, then I wanted you to splain yo'self.. So no need to get nastay.

The OP talks about giving everone Spells. I talk about not doing that

But as long as we're here now. What I'm saying is that if you are doing meaningful effects on par with magic then it probably is supernatural as well. Why mince words?

If you're able to keep up with the wizard who can fly and teleport, then might as well fuckin call it magic. Hell, whatever you are doing to keep up is probably nearly identical to a spell effect anyway.

As you say, the game is entirely dependent upon flavor used to describe it. Why get hung up on describing the feats that a fighter can perform as being "spells" or not? His defensive maneuver of whirling blades happens to perform very similarly to Blade Barrier perhaps. Or his battle awareness behaves like Shield of Faith, parrying blows without effort. Whatever.