Pathfinder Is Still Bad

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:37 am

TOZ wrote:Was it the demo, or the adventure module for backers that raised that?

Probably both. I'm sure there are people who were keen to contribute because of the book, but I doubt many people would have paid $50 or $100 solely for a 64 page book.

Antariuk · Post by **Antariuk** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:18 pm

hogarth wrote:
TOZ wrote:Was it the demo, or the adventure module for backers that raised that?
Probably both. I'm sure there are people who were keen to contribute because of the book, but I doubt many people would have paid $50 or $100 solely for a 64 page book.

I wouldn't underestimate the fan's desire for special supplemenets. Look at the Rappan Athuk Kickstarter, where 316 people gave $100 for the non-signed leatherbound hardcover. Look at Rise of the Runelords Anniversary for $60, which is No.2 on Paizo's selling list even though you can get the 3.5 version dirt cheap and Pathfinder conversions of this AP are like everwhere.

Also, I bet a lot of people haven't really read the description saying that half of the book is about design philospohy of Pathfinder Online or whatever. Normal adventure modules or companion modules from Paizo are like 36 pages I think, and the Kickstarter description sounds like they want to make something of a mini-setting and not an actual adventure. So the masses will think that they get something special (more pages than a normal adventure), but right now I believe it's be a so-so settlement description and a destillation of the stuff GoblinWorks posted on their website, with flowcharts and everything.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:32 pm

Antariuk wrote:[quote="hogarth]Probably both. I'm sure there are people who were keen to contribute because of the book, but I doubt many people would have paid $50 or $100 solely for a 64 page book.

I wouldn't underestimate the fan's desire for special supplemenets. Look at the Rappan Athuk Kickstarter, where 316 people gave $100 for the non-signed leatherbound hardcover. Look at Rise of the Runelords Anniversary for $60, which is No.2 on Paizo's selling list even though you can get the 3.5 version dirt cheap and Pathfinder conversions of this AP are like everwhere.[/quote]
The fact that people are willing to pay $60 or $100 for 400+ page books is not really strong evidence that people are willing to pay $50 or $100 for a 64 page book.

I agree that prestige is a motivating factor, of course.

Antariuk · Post by **Antariuk** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:21 pm

hogarth wrote:
Antariuk wrote:[quote="hogarth]Probably both. I'm sure there are people who were keen to contribute because of the book, but I doubt many people would have paid $50 or $100 solely for a 64 page book.
I wouldn't underestimate the fan's desire for special supplemenets. Look at the Rappan Athuk Kickstarter, where 316 people gave $100 for the non-signed leatherbound hardcover. Look at Rise of the Runelords Anniversary for $60, which is No.2 on Paizo's selling list even though you can get the 3.5 version dirt cheap and Pathfinder conversions of this AP are like everwhere.

The fact that people are willing to pay $60 or $100 for 400+ page books is not really strong evidence that people are willing to pay $50 or $100 for a 64 page book.

I agree that prestige is a motivating factor, of course.[/quote]

I was aiming for the fact that both products are re-prints, and that older versions are still available (altough RA might not be as cheap as Runelords). But you're right, the sheer volume is hardly comparable with a 64 page book.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:48 pm

As one who pledged the $100 for RA but not the tech demo, I can say with certainty they are different matters.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:11 am

So, how would one go about making a good cleric archer using the Pathfinder SRD? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ Doesn't have to be a cleric strictly speaking, but:

1.) It needs to use melee manufactured weapons. Unarmed strikes count if sufficiently pimped. Natural weapons plus manufactured weapons are okay.

2.) It needs to have full or nearly-full casting. No more than the loss of one caster level unless it's really spectacular.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:02 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So, how would one go about making a good cleric archer using the Pathfinder SRD? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ Doesn't have to be a cleric strictly speaking, but:

1.) It needs to use melee manufactured weapons. Unarmed strikes count if sufficiently pimped. Natural weapons plus manufactured weapons are okay.

2.) It needs to have full or nearly-full casting. No more than the loss of one caster level unless it's really spectacular.

Step 1: Stop assigning conflicting design goals.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:18 am

Cleric archer is the general term for 'full spellcaster that uses buffs to outdo the vanilla damage dealers' that's been kicked around on here and Nifty for almost a decade now. Mostly because Frank's build on the WotC boards during the Cleric Archer/Arcane Archer debates kicked off the whole CoDzilla meme. For reals.

K · Post by K » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:23 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Cleric archer is the general term for 'full spellcaster that uses buffs to outdo the vanilla damage dealers' that's been kicked around on here and Nifty for almost a decade now. Mostly because Frank's build on the WotC boards during the Cleric Archer/Arcane Archer debates kicked off the whole CoDzilla meme. For reals.

Fighting spellcasters are generally called Gish, from the githyanki term for people that do that.

Cleric archer is a specific build name.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:27 am

Isn't the Pathfinder answer to that "Just roll a Magus"? Not that I've actually looked at the class, but it seems to be the common answer to "How to play a Gish in pathfinder?"

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:29 am

If you start at level 4 or higher and are only going to fight 4 or less encounters per day, there's a pretty exploitable power you can grab for the Witch.

Prehensile Hair (Su): The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand. The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature. Pieces cut from the witch’s elongated hair shrink away to nothing. Using her hair does not harm the witch’s head or neck, even if she lifts something heavy with it. The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows.

Max out your INT, and you can use a single-handed weapon with that as your Strength score. I sometimes burn a feat for proficiency in the Trident, which arguably lets you threaten everything within 15 feet. The attacks of opportunity are pretty nice.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:39 am

I'm trying to picture that ability in my head... it's just... dumb.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:45 am

Really? It's a staple for fairy tales and myths and video games

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:03 am

No sir, that is awesome.
My next PF char may well be witch who attacks entirely with his manly moustache.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:04 am

I have nothing against people wanting and getting to play Sedusa or Godiva, or whatever, but the ability directly and explicitly says you can't use weapons despite that not making any sense.

-Username17

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:05 am

I'm guessing a cleric with animal domain + that feat that ups animal companion level (and then use spells to boost it), is not what you're looking for Lago?

Prehensile Hair (Su): The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature. Pieces cut from the witch’s elongated hair shrink away to nothing.

Do they mean that you can attack parts of her hair but that it doesn't count as a seperate creature?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:17 am

FrankTrollman wrote:I have nothing against people wanting and getting to play Sedusa or Godiva, or whatever, but the ability directly and explicitly says you can't use weapons despite that not making any sense.

-Username17

You're right. That is incredibly lame. I guess I'm going have to negotiate with the MC of one of my group's games over whether Kargath Beardfist is going to remain a viable PC.
EDIT:
"Cannot manipulate weapons as dextrously as a human hand" isn't an outright ban. I could make an argument that the trident is just used kind of sloppily. I could even argue that the Beardfist technique looks "inhumanly, unnaturally flexible". There we go.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:27 pm

The iconic hair witch is pretty awesome (or indeed, bootylicious), but does the Witch Spell List allow for the boss-killing summons that exert Gigatonnes per square inch?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:09 pm

For a melee cleric, you might want to go with the Evangelist archetype which gives you most of the good bardic music abilities in exchange for one of your domains and some other stuff.

Melee clerics sometimes go with the Growth domain (swift action Enlarge Person that lasts one round), but as noted the Animal domain is probably more powerful over the long run.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:19 pm

Oh, solution to some of the Hair Witch problems (though overall weakening):

The White Haired Witch alternate class feature. You lose:
[*]All Hexes ever (including Greater and Awesome)

And there are some nice Hexes too. You'll miss that. What you get:
[*]The hair thing with no limit - all day every day. Nothing forbidding the use of weapons, and it grows in reach over time. You could argue that this counts as a Hex for the purpose of the Extra Hex feat. Fill your boots.
[*]Over levels 2-8 you gain shitty "If you hit someone with it, free action Grapple/Trip/GET OVER HERE! attempt" and we know how bad the Combat Manoeuvre system is in PF. But hey, it's free action so technically you can make as many attempts as you like and if you have even a 5% chance of success... yeah.
[*]10 onwards you can choose from some basic Rogue Talents.
[*]18 and 20 you can choose from some advanced Rogue Talents.

So you lose out in the longrun for Hexing, but it lets you do the hair thing with a weapon and without limit, and is kind of okay for a melee type. Combine with the right Familiar and Spells and go for it, I guess.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:34 pm

Considering that giving up hexes means giving up unlimited use save or die/save or lose effects, and immunity to melee at level 5, it is a pretty damn stupid decision.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:49 pm

Voss, assuming you mean the Flight hex, how does being immune to melee help a melee character?

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:20 pm

TOZ wrote:Voss, assuming you mean the Flight hex, how does being immune to melee help a melee character?

It doesn't. The witch doesn't make for a good melee character; I was just commenting on the WHW alternate class features as opposed to having the defining features of the class- the hexes. It trades real, game winning powers for the ability to be shitty in melee with low hit dice and AC, let alone lacking proficiencies in decent weapons and armor.

The witch wins by knocking people out from level 1 on (and having full spell progression with a really rather good spell list- they get enough of the spells that fucking kill people, and a bunch of utility besides). Trying to force it to be a melee specialist is just a bad idea.

If you want a melee caster, there is always cleric, druid or the bloody oracle, which has several builds for melee that range from out of the box easy options- take battle, get special buffs in addition to spell buffs and exploit paizo's lack of intelligence like trade a feat (extra revelation) for 3 combat feats at 12th level, or less intuitive options- dark tapestry for minor buffs (like alter self), utility options and the ability to beat face on people you've trapped in Black Tentacles.

The oracle is a perfect fit for any sort of melee caster you can imagine, whether you want to do bizarre and esoteric things in addition to fighting, simply fling fireballs around, or take frankly broken shit like the lore of heavens Mantle of Moonlight which allows you to slap the spellcasting out of people, no save. Plus, like the witch, you can automatically turn feats into class features with real power, and do it repeatedly.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:54 am

I think a previous thread said Magus's suck, and a Bard was probably a better swordsman (truestrike+ power attack?).

sake · Post by **sake** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:36 am

The magus is generally a better melee fighter than the bard, short of some crazy ass buffed to the hilt charop monster. Perhaps the thread was talking about how the magus blows compared to a Eldritch Knight or even a stock cleric.