The Optimization of E6

[cthulhu]

they only become unbalanced here because you have lots of a resource (feats) and even if those feats only marginally add to your spellcasting actually add *raw power* while new fighter feat chains only add new options.

Edit: also note as wizards can continue to acquire spells, they also get new options outside of the 'feat' mechanic.

[Crissa]

I didn't ask how I said, what could be done to fix this.

BAB is 'raw power' for a fighter-type, for instance.

-Crissa

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Disallow all feats that allow for the decrease of metamagic cost.
Disallow all feats that are "sudden".
Disallow all Reserve feats (being able to throw a Searing ray all day is powerful at level 6, but not as powerful as "Drowning Glance" where you can literally walk through a city and kill everyone without blinking).
Eye carefully every feat that adds anything to the DC of a spell.
Eye carefully every feat that adds anything to the CL of a spell.
Eye carefully the standard feat-based abuses (Earth Sense + Earth Spell + Heighten)
Look LONG and HARD at Item Creation (considering you can almost never lose anything for it, even scrolls can be amazingly broken).

Mainly, it's shitty. When you complete an adventure you want to be able to do cool things. You don't want to say "another +1 to that DC!", or "Now I can throw down a Sudden Quicken+Sudden Maximize!"

Simply taking Sudden Maximize (Or Metamagic School Focus, or Residual Metamagic for all of the schools) over and over and over again is actually a good decision. That's really terrible.

Here's a quick abusive build.
Enchanter 6
1 - Heighten Spell, Spell Focus(Enchantment)
3 - Metamagic School Focus
6 - Metamagic School Focus

Once per day, you win. Period. You cast a Suggestion from a level 3 slot as a 9 spell (DC of at LEAST 24, which most CR6 monsters can't even make on a 20). That's lame and unflavorful. Oh yea, you are also a full wizard (with Fox's Cunning for more DC-pumping). What is the next feat you take? It's not even Residual Metamagic so that if you miss you can try again. It's another fucking Metamagic School Focus so that you can cast a 12th level spell at CR 6 monsters (they lose in this instance).

This is fun, so here's another.
Transmuter 6
1 - Extend Spell, Persist Spell
3 - Metamagic School Focus
6 - Metamagic School Focus
There, persist 1 spell/day.

I'm just picking on Metamagic School Focus because it allows for the cost adjustment to be decreased by 3 instead of Easy Metamagic (which allows for a simply -1 cost all day). Here's a build that doesn't rely on such a dirty trick:

Generalist Human Wizard 6
1 - Still Spell, Silent Spell
3 - Easy Metamagic (Still)
6 - Easy Metamagic (Silent)

All of your spells are always Stilled and Silent and can never be identified by spellcraft checks or counterspelled. Effectively, you are immune to all other wizards (especially since they don't even know you are a wizard).

And, of course, the king of being powerful
Gnome Illusionist
1 - Earth Sense
3 - Heighten Spell
6 - Earth Spell
(Proceed down the path of Metamagic School Focus, Residual Magic, Easy Metamagic)

Here's a simpler build:
Cleric 6
1 - Scribe Scroll
3 - Craft Staff
6 - Craft Wonderous Item
There, character makes an uber-item and just KEEPS TACKING THINGS ONTO IT using the rules that "adding something to an already-existing item is at +50% cost". Being that you are level 6 forever and you just rake in money, your item gets to be level appropriate while you aren't.

Another!
Evoker 6
1 - Heighten Spell
3 - Sudden Maximize
6 - Sudden Empower
1x/day you win. Keep tacking on Suddens (go for quicken!). Or, go for ANY OF THE ABOVE STRATEGIES.

It's crazy!

[CalibronXXX]

Yet significantly more playable that the last 4 levels of regular D&D.

[cthulhu]

1189382361[/unixtime]]I didn't ask how I said, what could be done to fix this.

BAB is 'raw power' for a fighter-type, for instance.

-Crissa

Sorry I miss read you.

It might just be more efficient to stamp on the things that allow anyway to use effects that normally require you to be level 7+. So ban casting spells with an effective spell level greater than 3. Heck you could probably actually say that.

The goal is to put the thumbscrews on effects that are of a higher level than what is achievable at level 6 - so if you just proceed with that in mind whenever you review a feat, you're done. This neatly preserves the spirit of the E6 idea and provides a pretty reasonable rule of thumb to assess anything.

[Aktariel]

Where is Easy Metamagic from?

[CalibronXXX]

Dragon Magazine.

You can find most feats and their descriptions here.

[Jacob_Orlove]

Oddly enough, that link doesn't include Complete Mage, but I'm pretty sure Metamagic School Focus is a -1 adjustment that can be applied three times/day, not three -1 adjustments that can each be applied once/day (ie, you can't stack all three on the same spell).

Also, Heighten can't take a spell above 9th.

Edit: and "Drowning Glance" requires 4th level spells.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Earth Sense + Earth Power + Heighten Spell + Drowning Glance if I recall correctly. You will be able to prepare a 2nd level spell in a 3rd level slot that counts as a 4th level spell (which in turn will fuel Drowning Glance).

The key thing is that when magic-users take feats, they augment abilities instead of adding new options. The augmented abilities are more powerful than they were previously. A wizard could take any (or ALL) of the above strategies. I personally like something like:
Elven Generalist Wizard 6
1 - Sudden Extend
3 - Craft Wonderous Item
6 - Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower, <whatever feat that makes crafting cheaper>

[Koumei]

Heck, at this level, direct damage spells can actually be pretty nifty, so you go from Fireball 6d6 (reasonable for level 6, really) to Suddenly Maximised Fireball 36 (better for level 6) to Sudenly Maximised, Suddenly Empowered Fireball 36 + 3d6 (even better for level 6) etc.

Or you take the feat which lets you reduce ALL metamagic costs by 1 (without the usual "minimum level" tag, so Silent is +0 and the usually-crappy +0 ones become -1) to a single spell and change the damage to any type you want. Even banning "Con damage" and the like as an option, you lay down the right metamagics and suddens and you end up with a whole lot of Force damage to a whole heap of people. In higher level games, that combo can make Scorching Ray level appropriate. In the "If I hit with enough of these ranged touch attacks, you die without a saving throw" kind of way.

[JonSetanta]

Easy Metamagic looks fun...

[CalibronXXX]

It is, I like to grab Easy Empower and slap it on ray of enfeeblement. It's a good thing.

[JonSetanta]

I'm thinking the key to making Evocation worth taking might lie in application of effective MM feats.
Rather than studying the effect of "this encounter is over" on a failed save vs. "this encounter will be over with 2-3 more spells", one should study exactly what Evocation IS and HAS been used for.
It's versatile. It damages objects and characters at the same time. It's reliable with those 'Fortitude 1/2' and 'Reflex 1/2' saves, ensuring that even if unsuccessful the enemy is injured tho.
SODs are pass/fail, which means in tight or risky situations one successful save against a mind-control or death spell means effectively a turn wasted. At low levels, where the damage-to-HP ratio is very close, mistakes cost lives.

Now for optimising, make these things stronger.
This means more damage, better spell DC, faster casting, retarded long range, and possibly making sure
Not to go on a tangent, and I'm sure Frank's made these analysis before, but it applies here too.
Slapping together a L6 Evocation blaster build is easy and works in this limited environment, since HP is relatively low and a good deal of the encounters will probably involve puny little shits that will die even on a failed save.

Using this example of effective Evocation role, one could balance the rest of the levels out so that Evocation damage spells deal a proportionate amount of damage relative to their caster level and expected average encounter.

So in sum, we need more ways to rack up the damage output, and since WOTC isn't putting out better Evocations, MM feats seem the way to do this.

[CalibronXXX]

1189467177[/unixtime]]I'm thinking the key to making Evocation worth taking might lie in application of effective MM feats.
Rather than studying the effect of "this encounter is over" on a failed save vs. "this encounter will be over with 2-3 more spells", one should study exactly what Evocation IS and HAS been used for.
It's versatile. It damages objects and characters at the same time. It's reliable with those 'Fortitude 1/2' and 'Reflex 1/2' saves, ensuring that even if unsuccessful the enemy is injured tho.
SODs are pass/fail, which means in tight or risky situations one successful save against a mind-control or death spell means effectively a turn wasted. At low levels, where the damage-to-HP ratio is very close, mistakes cost lives.

Now for optimising, make these things stronger.
This means more damage, better spell DC, faster casting, retarded long range, and possibly making sure
Not to go on a tangent, and I'm sure Frank's made these analysis before, but it applies here too.
Slapping together a L6 Evocation blaster build is easy and works in this limited environment, since HP is relatively low and a good deal of the encounters will probably involve puny little shits that will die even on a failed save.

Using this example of effective Evocation role, one could balance the rest of the levels out so that Evocation damage spells deal a proportionate amount of damage relative to their caster level and expected average encounter.

So in sum, we need more ways to rack up the damage output, and since WOTC isn't putting out better Evocations, MM feats seem the way to do this.

Relevant link.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Current system boils it down to:
Magic Missile - good if you Empower (or other Metamagic) it.
Color Spray - good. Better if you boost DCs (or metamagic).

But yea, to balance spellcasters out with fighters, simply ban all of the standard spellcasting tricks for boosting CL/DC and reducing metamagic cost. You have to make it so that they actually take things like "Improved Toughness", "Run" "Point Blank Shot -> Precise Shot". You know, fighter feats.

[Aktariel]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news - but I went back and looked at Easy Metamagic, and you can't use it to reduce the cost of metamagic below 1 [so you can reduce it from 2 to 1, but not from 1 to 0].

Shame, really.

[JonSetanta]

Yeah I saw that link. Saved, too. One of my favorite threads... Prak and I have similar ideas abotu increasing the damage dice but I can't remember where they went..

I think the subject sticks in my mind from time to time because Frank proved to us all in logical terms how much Evocation bites the big one, and he's sadly correct. Thinking back to the times I've played Evocation-specific Sorcs, they took too long in combat to accomplish what a simple Sleep or Color Spray does...

What's everyone's opinion on the new powerful Evocations in E6? Would it be too good in such a limited setting?


Aktariel: Awww shit. Well, that's what house rules are for, eh?
Still, I saw that in the feats compilation site for Dragon magazine, and thought 'Now that's the golden mean I've been looking for. The exact feat-worth in ability to cast in armor, to cast silently; it's the missing link between Psionics and Magic!'
Namely, to cast in armor is worth 2 feats. To cast without speaking is 2 feats. It works.
Don't see why they limited it like that... because the Epic version is worse, and you can't take it until after 20? Is that it?

For E6, that would be perfect...

[erik]

Most of those builds don't work as hoped for, SunTzu. Easy Metamagic and Metamagic School Focus are apparently overestimated as Jacob and Aktariel note, and Craft Staff is a 12th level feat.

On the upside, you're shorting all those wizards their free 5th level wizard bonus feat, so there is a wee bit more to work with for a starting 6th level character.

[Jacob_Orlove]

If you really want to break E6, then you don't even want to be a Wizard in the first place. I mean, sure, Sudden Maximize is a useful feat, probably worth the 5,000 XP.

But is it worth 62,500 gp?

Here's what you do. You start out as an Artificer, and hope the DM goes easy on the party, because at level one you're not even contributing. Then you gain some levels and start to use metamagics and infusions and cheating to do crazy hot damage with a Wand of Scorching Ray or whatever. You can even make Wands of 4th level spells. Take that, full casters! You can even start throwing down Wall of Stone and other actually good spells at levels 1-3, if your dumpster-fu is strong.

Meanwhile, when other people are picking up a feat, you're turning those XPs into sweet, sweet GPs. If you can't just cheese your way into a big pile of cash, you take "Mercantile Background" (or whatever it is called) and the -25% to GP cost for crafting feat (legendary artisan? extraordinary artisan? [censored] artisan?). You manufacture items at 3/8ths of base price, and sell them at 3/4ths, a 3/8ths profit. At 12.5 gp/XP, that's a little less than 5 gp/XP just by making items and then selling them. Then, once you have a big enough pile of cash, you sit down and triple it by crafting items you actually want.

So you don't get bonus feats, but instead you get Wands of Good Spells, or Amber Amulets of MORTAL KOMBAT, or other stuff that actually just wins encounters.

[JonSetanta]

1189713483[/unixtime]] and hope the DM goes easy on the party

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh... not likely, given my past experiences.

[JonSetanta]

Yeah I'm posting a lot, but here's the last one for today:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t ... 1[br][br]A good E6 thread in case anyone was curious, like I was.

[Captain_Bleach]

1189321107[/unixtime]]
The Sudden Metamagics alone break E6 severely in the long run. You really are better off playing regular 6 where you get to sixth level and then you stop handing out XP for the rest of the campaign.

-Username17

That is what I'm going to do with my soon-to-come Ravenloft campaign, but with Frank and K's "Tome of..." influences included in.