What are the most interesting/strong nonmagic 3.5 classes?

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:40 am

"Use Magic Device" will be on the fence for 'nonmagical', but I'd prefer stuff that doesn't focus on that.

Are there ideal dips for fighter, barb, monk and so on multiclassing? Is it just going to be Bo9S?

weird multiclassing combos is what I'm especially looking for.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:49 am

If you consider Book of Nine Swords non-magical, then ther's a lot of stuff that's open.

There was, for example, the bizarre Kalashtar Monk/Soulknife thing that let you do a flurry of blows with your psychic katana.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:52 pm

"Nonmagical" is a pretty vague term.

shapechanging: Bear Warrior, cheap entry Warshaper.

Factotum, sorta kinda.

Ubermount builds.

Frenzied Berserker can certainly get interesting.

Dungeoncrasher Fighter. Warhulk. Riposte scout. Robilar/Karmic strike Fighter.

Antariuk · Post by **Antariuk** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:37 pm

I always had a soft spot for the Scout. I know, it's not a strong class, but the concept of damage trough speed appears intriguing, even though the whole thing is easily rendered useless by several spells or very difficult terrain. Still, if the GM is not an optimizer or that familiar with spellcasting, its a nice replacement class for the rogue or the ranger.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:01 pm

A really good 16-level Bear Warrior Build is Barbarian 4/Bear Warrior 5/Fist of the Forests 3/Warshaper 4- this essentially makes you a bear that knows kung fu- warshaper allows you to make your natural weapons one size larger as a move action, so you boost everything with that, either get wildling clasps on magic items (necklace of natural weapons is good) or go VoP. You won't be super-effective, and a druid-monk multiclass will kick your ass, but you're still a bear that knows kung fu. Take Snow Tiger Berserker, which is from some weird Faerun book, which gives you pounce with natural weapons: there's a backstory requirement but whatever.

Scouts actually become fairly good if you take a cleric dip (admittedly magical) and pick up travel devotion, which allows you to move as a swift action if you burn turn undead uses- buy a Nightstick and pick up Extra Turning and you should have enough to get you through a few encounters. Ranged Scouts work really well with a travel devotion build, especially if you have a good hide mod along with Hide in Plain Sight, maybe with a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis- Darkstalker, which conceals you from blindsight and stuff, synergizes well with this, but all that is just gravy.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:30 pm

You forgot the one from Iceburn that lets you turn into a Dire Bear, I think.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:24 pm

The Flasked Avenger has a lot of staying power. You throw bombs like you were super bomber man, and because the number of bombs you throw and the damage per bomb thrown are both level dependent, you actually do damage that keeps up with hit point inflation. Sneak up, throw a bomb volley, inflict 80+ damage in a turn and have an argument about how much ongoing damage the target takes next turn.

It does enough damage to drop level appropriate enemies even at double digit levels and you also have a high enough Search and Disable Device that you can undo 9th level spell traps without rolling dice. And you're pretty much Bomberman, but you're able to do level appropriate stuff and kill level appropriate enemies.

It is the complex character build: Rogue 10.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:42 pm

Ogre Battle: did you mean non-caster as in someone who:

Has no unassisted impossible effects (outside of mathematical oddness like the rogue or 4E's lack of hardness) whatsoever?

Can accomplish impossible effects but doesn't have an identifiable phlebtonium source, like the Warblade?

Non-caster as in 'not a primary caster', which allows blatantly magical classes like the paladin and hexblade?

For the first one, you can't beat the rogue. No, really, you can't. The only shortcoming of the rogue is the short range of sneak attack so if you can get around that you're golden. If your DM will let you, you can also take levels in the 3.0E Order of the Bow Initiate. That PrC will singlehandedly

For the second one, if you don't want to get into Book of Nine Swords oddness, there's always Frenzied Berserker cheese. Again, if your DM will let you, you can use the unerrata'd Ninja of the Crescent Moon (with no more than 4 levels in monk, probably no more than 2 even) from Sword and Fist and then Singh Rager Oriental Adventures and either sex your unarmed strike up with a ring of shocking blows + ki straps + pain touch + those gonzo unarmed sandals.

For the third one, a Paladin/Cavalier or Waverider/Knight of the Middle Circle 1 performs very well.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:17 am

If you're going Rogue and you feel the pathological urge to multiclass, going swashbuckler and taking Daring Outlaw, which lets the levels stack, can help you out with a good fort save, a better BAB, and a couple of fairly shitty class features that can nevertheless be useful. On the other hand, you might not get those awesome rogue special abilities and you'll lose out on skillpoints, but that's the price you have to pay. If you have an even number of class levels, a 1-level fighter dip can net you a feat without a loss of sneak attack. You'll have to talk to your DM about this, but there are spells in Complete adventurer that are cast as a swift action, last one round, and allow you to sneak attack plants and constructs and the like. The question is if you can buy them as a wand: spell trigger items are always a standard action according to the SRD (I think) but Complete Adventurer lists wands of those spells as magical items, and if it were a standard action to use as a wand they would obviously be useless.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:01 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Ogre Battle: did you mean non-caster as in someone who:

Has no unassisted impossible effects (outside of mathematical oddness like the rogue or 4E's lack of hardness) whatsoever?

Can accomplish impossible effects but doesn't have an identifiable phlebtonium source, like the Warblade?

Non-caster as in 'not a primary caster', which allows blatantly magical classes like the paladin and hexblade?

For the first one, you can't beat the rogue. No, really, you can't. The only shortcoming of the rogue is the short range of sneak attack so if you can get around that you're golden. If your DM will let you, you can also take levels in the 3.0E Order of the Bow Initiate. That PrC will singlehandedly

For the second one, if you don't want to get into Book of Nine Swords oddness, there's always Frenzied Berserker cheese. Again, if your DM will let you, you can use the unerrata'd Ninja of the Crescent Moon (with no more than 4 levels in monk, probably no more than 2 even) from Sword and Fist and then Singh Rager Oriental Adventures and either sex your unarmed strike up with a ring of shocking blows + ki straps + pain touch + those gonzo unarmed sandals.

For the third one, a Paladin/Cavalier or Waverider/Knight of the Middle Circle 1 performs very well.

I initially was thinking "people who don't use magic in the wizard/cleric sense", but I think the Factotum is 'nonmagical' enough, and shapechanging is also cool.
... and I really like (the idea) of Monk. The Pathfinder Ninja also SEEMS fun on paper... I've also always been fond of Gish's and bladesingers

Yeah I guess I'll extend it to 'not fullcasters', or "people who use magic to modify their swording"

But the main goal would be things like the Dungeoncrasher, or Flasked Avenger (Bomberman!? You sold me on it!)

And yeah, I do have a pathological urge to multiclass, it makes me feel clever.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:24 am

I meant to say: single-handedly make the fighter-archer a viable DPR build.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:37 am

It seems like there's use of "nonmagical" to mean both "no phlebotinum" (which sucks) and "has muscle/weapon phlebotinum instead of meganerd/divine phlebotinum" (which is perfectly fine if you actually let the former do cool shit).

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:45 am

In the context of a TTRPG, even if you're not playing in a 'look, skeletons gain superstrength by doing push-ups, deal with it' setting, you don't need phlebtonium to be useful. For the same reason 4E children can tear down adamantine castle walls faster than a catapult. Look at the rogue, for instance.

8headeddragon · Post by **8headeddragon** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:36 am

The Exotic Weapons Master PrC. Yeah, I know its a CWar PrC, I know it did way, way too little, but the concept of a short PrC that gives a character amazing tricks with an unusual weapon is nice. Unfortunately for a PrC like that to truly shine it would most likely need a version tailored to every type of weapon (i.e. Revolver Master, Kusare-gama Master, Oversized Sword Master, whatev), to say nothing of the issues with overspecializing in an unusual weapon.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:54 pm

I personally am a fan of the Trouserfang Dwarf.