Polymorph

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:02 pm

NineInchNall wrote:I'm confused. What problem exactly is this trying to solve? 'Cause it looks like you took all the problems with 3.0 polymorph, then added all the problems of the 3.5 version to it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that no one was claiming the 3.5 version wasn't complex or powerful enough.

duo31 · Post by **duo31** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:47 pm

I think you just need to approach this as a new spell. Think about what you want to happen mechanically and less about patching holes.

IE.
Polymorph should give you new movement mode options.
" access to common creature abilities.
" special puzzle solving abilities within reason. (no wish)

Polymorph should be a toolbox, not a laser cannon. IE a versatile spell, but one that gives abilities that can be replicated by other spells, so that it is still balanced with other magic.

questions that should be answered. Can a polymorphed creature still cast spells? What happens to equipment? Should PAO exist? Should size changes greater than 1 size category be allowed?

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:03 am

Wait, are we fixing polymorph again?

Polymorph Self.
Sor/Wiz 4. -- V.
Target: Self.
Duration: 4 hours (D).

On casting, and for the duration as a standard action, the caster may take on the form of any corporeal creature. The only change to the caster's stats is weight, movement rates (including new modes such as flying and swimming), and size, space, and reach. Equipment is not available unless the new type would normally use it. Spell-like and supernatural movement types of the new form generally do not function.
When dispelled, the caster returns to normal form on his next action and heals 2 hp/level.

Polymorph Other
Sor/Wiz 4. -- V, S, M.
Target: One corporeal creature.
Range: Close (25' + 5'/2 levels).
Duration: Permanent.
Save: Fort negates (see text).

The target creature becomes a new form of creature in all aspects except type, hit points, saving throws, and spells. Simply use the statistics directly from the monster manual for a base corporeal creature of the kind polymorphed into. A target creature which fails the first save must make an additional Will save or lose their mind (including all prepared spells) and act entirely as a wild creature of the new form's kind would: PCs lost this way will be handled by the DM. Equipment is not available unless the new type would normally use it. Spell-like and supernatural abilities of the new form generally do not function (and supernatural forms may not take, at the DM's discretion).
Should the effect later be dispelled, the target creature must make a DC 15 Fort save or die.

PAO is like Poly-other but with funny durations for bigger changes, Shapechange is like Poly-self but with abilities gained like Poly-other. Dinky things like Enlarge or Alter Self work like a less-useful Poly-self (and less-deadly Poly-other).

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:30 pm

(1) Your (AD&D-esque) version of Polymorph Self is awful. It's just basically a super-travel power (e.g. transforming into a flying, teleporting angel), and it's written so vaguely that it's unclear whether you can even use it to disguise yourself.

(2) Your (AD&D-esque) version of Polymorph Other is twice as awful. Starting at level 7 wizards will buy some cows and begin churning out armies of (weak, but free) solars and gold dragons (if good) or pit fiends and red dragons (if evil). That sounds incredibly tedious.

tussock wrote:Wait, are we fixing polymorph again?

Polymorph Self.
Sor/Wiz 4. -- V.
Target: Self.
Duration: 4 hours (D).

On casting, and for the duration as a standard action, the caster may take on the form of any corporeal creature. The only change to the caster's stats is weight, movement rates (including new modes such as flying and swimming), and size, space, and reach. Equipment is not available unless the new type would normally use it. Spell-like and supernatural movement types of the new form generally do not function.
When dispelled, the caster returns to normal form on his next action and heals 2 hp/level.

Polymorph Other
Sor/Wiz 4. -- V, S, M.
Target: One corporeal creature.
Range: Close (25' + 5'/2 levels).
Duration: Permanent.
Save: Fort negates (see text).

The target creature becomes a new form of creature in all aspects except type, hit points, saving throws, and spells. Simply use the statistics directly from the monster manual for a base corporeal creature of the kind polymorphed into. A target creature which fails the first save must make an additional Will save or lose their mind (including all prepared spells) and act entirely as a wild creature of the new form's kind would: PCs lost this way will be handled by the DM. Equipment is not available unless the new type would normally use it. Spell-like and supernatural abilities of the new form generally do not function (and supernatural forms may not take, at the DM's discretion).
Should the effect later be dispelled, the target creature must make a DC 15 Fort save or die.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:35 am

(1) When you die, you fall over, even if the rules don't say. Similarly, taking on a new form changes what you look like. Teleport explicitly forbidden (and if we're fixing spells, randomly lethal).

(2) You realise the cows will often fail their will save and fucking kill you, right? Hmm, I see I missed the target has to make that Will save every damn day as well, to make that trick even less useful.

But yes, generally, a safe unlimited travel, bypass, and avoidance power; and a dangerous turn cows into dragons (or dragons into cows) power. Because those work, are useful, are trivially playable, are level-appropriate, do not break the game, and do not radically transform the game world. Unlike the 3e/.5 versions.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:04 am

tussock wrote: (2) You realise the cows will often fail their will save and fucking kill you, right? Hmm, I see I missed the target has to make that Will save every damn day as well, to make that trick even less useful.

tussock wrote: A target creature which fails the first save must make an additional Will save or lose their mind (including all prepared spells) and act entirely as a wild creature of the new form's kind would: PCs lost this way will be handled by the DM.

There sees to be a disconnect here: all this says is that it behaves as a wild creature, and I have no idea what that means. If you change a cow into a Solar and it fails its will save, is it a cow with SLA's out the ass (which would be hilarious) or do you have a Solar with terrible HP and saves? If it's the first then it's still incredibly exploitable as you then have cows that could wish for all the grass in the world along with power word killing every fly they see (which I'm sure you could exploit in some sense), and if it's the second then, if you're good, you still have an infinite number of weak solars that you could easily convince to help you.

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:17 am

So what happens if you turn into, say, a Fire Elemental? Or a Gelatinous Cube? Do you get to be made of fire or acid? Can you damage objects?

And what about size modifiers? If you become three inches tall, do you get the commensurate AC bonus? If you become ten stories tall, do you take the commensurate AC penalty? Can you lean against a wall to knock it down, even with your 8 str, given that you now weigh many tons?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:33 am

tussock wrote:(2) You realise the cows will often fail their will save and fucking kill you, right?

Why would good aligned solars kill a good aligned wizard? The whole point is that you WANT the cows to fail their saves and become intelligent allies (but still with low Will saves, suitable for charming, if that's your bag).

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:32 am

@Korgan0: The DM would reference the monster manual as to the normal behaviour of such creatures, or make it up as required should the manual not support that. (Sp) and (Su) generally do not function. You have a (dispellable-to-cow) solar with no spells or slaying arrows or vorpal swords.

@Whatever: Corporeal only, but with poly other you do get their attacks (not (Su)). With poly self Size mods add a level of complexity I don't value, so no. Judgement call as to the limits of normal movement for megafauna in the face of light-weight walls.

@Hogarth: Yes, but I do not accept there's a race of incredibly powerful and innately subservient beings that automatically help everyone with a sob story. As Paladins do not spend their time pulling plows for the poor, so Solars do not act to solve PC-level problems. But yes, you can have some unnaturally fragile charmed monsters out the other end slightly easier than charming the real ones.

Strung Nether · Post by **Strung Nether** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:50 am

I think that it is unfortunate that one of the biggest tropes of mid-evil fantasy is basically that a caster can turn into any monster it wants. If you try to make this work in an actual game:

The thing the caster turns into isn't as powerful as the original, which sucks.
or
The caster can turn into something that is too powerfull when combined with the caster's abilities.
or
The caster can't turn in to anything more threatening than a small monkey until ~level 15.

and

The caster gains stupid high amounts of versatility and an insane self buff in one spell
or
You have to explain why turning into an eagle still means that you cant fly or see better.

No matter what you do, you piss someone off. This spell is up there with spells like rope trick in that you cant really make them less powerful without making them useless. The fundamental ability of a caster modifying its physical form is incredibly powerful, especially in a world when you can have a CR of 10 while still being a normal/non-magical animal.

I vote on getting rid of it, but that is just because I have given up.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:06 pm

It is most definitely true that people with the magical ability to turn themselves or others into animals is an extremely common trope in fiction about magic. Especially pre-modern fiction, where I think it was actually the single most common magical power I've encountered. So I definitely think the general idea of "can turn self and others into weird things" should be supported, but I don't see why it has to be yet another trick up the wizard's sleeve. Polymorph should be a class, not a spell.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:08 pm

tussock wrote: But yes, you can have some unnaturally fragile charmed monsters out the other end slightly easier than charming the real ones.

Yes, you can flood the countryside with flying good-aligned flying creatures with Regeneration 15 (epic and evil), AC 35, etc. At level 7. That's lame.

But why am I even discussing this with you? You'll just come back with a bunch of Rule 0 rambling that I couldn't care less about.

Strung Nether · Post by **Strung Nether** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:30 pm

Chamomile wrote:It is most definitely true that people with the magical ability to turn themselves or others into animals is an extremely common trope in fiction about magic. Especially pre-modern fiction, where I think it was actually the single most common magical power I've encountered. So I definitely think the general idea of "can turn self and others into weird things" should be supported, but I don't see why it has to be yet another trick up the wizard's sleeve. Polymorph should be a class, not a spell.

Actually, this might work. Druid-spells-companion+tons of shapes.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:28 pm

Strung Nether wrote:The thing the caster turns into isn't as powerful as the original, which sucks.

Meh, I can live with it ... I don't understand your all or nothing mentality, not having polymorph at all also sucks.

You have to explain why turning into an eagle still means that you cant fly or see better.

Personally I have more trouble with the fact that the spell could somehow make you see better when you transform into an arbitrary bird, but not into some arbitrary other form.

For the lower level polymorph spells I'd rather have an enhanced disguise spell, which gives you a shape and possibly a selection of buffs (flight if you have wings, the ability to use natural weapons if the disguise has hem, the ability to use weapons if the disguise has hands etc etc).

Leave actually getting the body of another creature to high level spells and require a part of the body (or maybe even an entire corpse) as a material component.

No matter what you do, you piss someone off. This spell is up there with spells like rope trick in that you cant really make them less powerful without making them useless.

Only because you redefine useless as anything less than you find acceptable ... not actually useless.

Strung Nether · Post by **Strung Nether** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:10 pm

Meh, I can live with it ... I don't understand your all or nothing mentality, not having polymorph at all also sucks.

You may be ok with this, but from my end I feel cheated. Its just lame to turn into a really weak version of a awesome creature. I don't want to be a physically pathetic t-rex, I want to be an actual t-rex. "somehow you are somehow unable to turn into anything that isn't a pathetic example of the species" is up there with "Your spell fails. It just does. Stop it. Stop trying things I didn't think of."

Personally I have more trouble with the fact that the spell could somehow make you see better when you transform into an arbitrary bird, but not into some arbitrary other form.

For the lower level polymorph spells I'd rather have an enhanced disguise spell, which gives you a shape and possibly a selection of buffs (flight if you have wings, the ability to use natural weapons if the disguise has hem, the ability to use weapons if the disguise has hands etc etc).

Saying that polymorph is now fly+disguise+bull's strength is really lame. Polymorph, as I understand it, is turning yourself into an animal. Your "you can now do some thigns that animals can do+disguise" spell isn't what I think of when I think of polymorph.

Leave actually getting the body of another creature to high level spells and require a part of the body (or maybe even an entire corpse) as a material component.

The "you haven't seen that animal before" thing that druids have to deal with when the DM is being a brat is dumb. I don't want to play the "Lets murder a zoo" minigame any more than the "find the buyer" minigame.

People need to look at what pathfinder did to rope trick to learn the wrong way to fix spells.

Only because you redefine useless as anything less than you find acceptable ... not actually useless.

If there is no reason I would want to cast the spell, it is useless. your spell, as i understand it is:

you can sorta gain some of the abilities of animals, Something like fly, maybe a bite attack or a swim speed. You might even get a Attribute bonus if you are really special, and you now sorta look like an animal. Oh: before you do that though, you have to make sure the DM is ok with the animal you are going to sorta be, and if he is, he will let you know my allowing you to find one that you can kill if you ask nicely.

I would seriously rather cast fly.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:03 pm

Strung Nether wrote:Saying that polymorph is now fly+disguise+bull's strength is really lame.

Be that as it may, it's possible to balance and can result in a non useless spell ... and there is no reason to beg your DM for anything in this case. Any creature in the right size category and with large enough wings (ie. mundane flight) can fly, it could be entirely imaginary if you want.

The moment you turn it into a disguise with buffs spells the spell becomes independent of DM fiat and access to monster manuals ...

Polymorph, as I understand it, is turning yourself into an animal.

I'm more literalist, I see it as just changing your form ...

The "you haven't seen that animal before" thing that druids have to deal with when the DM is being a brat is dumb. I don't want to play the "Lets murder a zoo" minigame any more than the "find the buyer" minigame.

I'm not doing it for balance, it's just aesthetics ... a transmutation spell being limited to the forms of existing animals just seems strange to me if it's not somehow intrinsically linked to those animals, the material component takes care of that.

PS. I'll repeat, this was for the higher level spells like Shapechange ... the lower level polymorph should just be disguise+buff IMO.

Strung Nether · Post by **Strung Nether** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:48 pm

MfA wrote:
Strung Nether wrote:Saying that polymorph is now fly+disguise+bull's strength is really lame.
Be that as it may, it's possible to balance and can result in a non useless spell ... and there is no reason to beg your DM for anything in this case. Any creature in the right size category and with large enough wings (ie. mundane flight) can fly, it could be entirely imaginary if you want.

The moment you turn it into a disguise with buffs spells the spell becomes independent of DM fiat and access to monster manuals ...
Polymorph, as I understand it, is turning yourself into an animal.
I'm more literalist, I see it as just changing your form ...
The "you haven't seen that animal before" thing that druids have to deal with when the DM is being a brat is dumb. I don't want to play the "Lets murder a zoo" minigame any more than the "find the buyer" minigame.
I'm not doing it for balance, it's just aesthetics ... a transmutation spell being limited to the forms of existing animals just seems strange to me if it's not somehow intrinsically linked to those animals, the material component takes care of that.

PS. I'll repeat, this was for the higher level spells like Shapechange ... the lower level polymorph should just be disguise+buff IMO.

I see.
I still think that it would be better to make a class with polymorph as its thing, instead of giving another amazing tool to the wizard toolbox.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:16 am

hogarth wrote:
tussock wrote: But yes, you can have some unnaturally fragile charmed monsters out the other end slightly easier than charming the real ones.
Yes, you can flood the countryside with flying good-aligned flying creatures with Regeneration 15 (epic and evil), AC 35, etc. At level 7. That's lame.

My apologies, I had internalised regeneration as a (Su) ability, but I see it's actually written as an (Ex) ability which is not gained when you gain (Ex) abilities. See also: Golems are objects, vampires aren't really there, and so on. I tend to internalise the rules in a way that makes them consistent, rather than accurate.

But why am I even discussing this with you? You'll just come back with a bunch of Rule 0 rambling that I couldn't care less about.

Uh, dude, it is a house rule, duh, and this is why AD&D-like spells contain "outs" for the DM, in case the designer has missed some terribly stupid, obvious in retrospect, exploit. Like I did just then.

tussock wrote:(and supernatural forms may not take, at the DM's discretion)

So if you don't want the countryside filled with exotic outsiders who magically cannot be killed, don't do that, like I already gave you permission not to. You're welcome.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:33 am

tussock wrote:Uh, dude, it is a house rule, duh, and this is why AD&D-like spells contain "outs" for the DM, in case the designer has missed some terribly stupid, obvious in retrospect, exploit. Like I did just then.

Saying "this version is better because you don't have to use it and you can use the power of your imagination instead!" is a stupid cop-out.

That's what I mean by Rule 0 bullshit.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:57 am

I believe that in the case of open-ended powers like Polymorph, Gate, Charm, Teleport, and Wish, you need to build in stupid cop-outs for the DM to use, or your game will suffer for it.

My evidence is 3rd edition D&D. You'll note the open-ended go anywhere, be anyone, and do anything spells kinda break shit all the time, over and over again. Nuclear arms treaties all over the place: I won't teleport my buffed force of demon lords into your bedroom if you don't teleport your buffed angelic host into mine.

infected slut princess · Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:51 am

tussock wrote:Teleport explicitly forbidden (and if we're fixing spells, randomly lethal).

What the hell is with all you jerks wanting teleporting people to randomly die? Teleporting is awesome and you fuckers want to ruin it for no good reason.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:02 am

TV Tropes regarding Villain Teleportation wrote:Teleportation is an awesome power to have. Even with the risks involved, it's hands down the best way to travel in fiction. Of course, as powers go it tends to be a case of winning the Superpower Lottery. A hero with this ability could simply whisk up to a MacGuffin, dump The Dragon in jail and spray holy water on the Big Bad before he even shuffles off his throne.
This is why heroes tend not to have the power to teleport, or at least not with the ease and grace of their villain. Because it's such a huge advantage and potential conflict killer, giving a villain the power of teleportation will make most heroes' lives that much harder and the conflict that much more uphill. After the hero clears out all the enemies in the hidden temple, the villain will teleport in and snatch that MacGuffin right out of the hero's hands.

Basically very many people lump it in the list of various Story Breaking Powers

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:12 am

Problem is that giving teleport a random death chance does the opposite of what you want then.

Major villains won't really use it, because if it dies off screen to a random chance you have a pretty shitty story.

Players won't use it for travel, since travel time is mostly meaningless (you skip three weeks ahead!)

But for dangerous tasks (like grabbing the MacGuffin or the other examples) it would be useful, because not teleporting also most likely gives you a chance of failure/death.

infected slut princess · Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:08 am

You would need to make your Random Death Teleport a cantrip, then maybe some drunk level 1 wizard might try it.

I think teleporting is supposed to be a "high level" power. You shouldn't have access to it at levels where it IS a "story breaking power" except in a special situation.

Teleporting should be embraced as a cool option for high level questing and even day-to-day life, and problematic at low level, instead of trying to make every tier of fantasy adventuring the same. If you are talking about "fixing stuff" anyway, I don't see why you can't use any the million other possible 'fixes' that don't involve random death.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:07 am

I like the world-building concept of free Teleport being rare and something only tried in serious emergencies. Close the hellmouth when all else has failed, not gank some random bandit in his sleep because he doesn't have Mind Blank. It doesn't have to be unavoidable character loss, but it does need to be something many high-level characters would logically choose to avoid.

Landing-pad magnets are an interesting workaround, but I mean, it's only death, you can always expect to make another 20+ unsafe jumps before it happens, you get to keep items and stuff. Not the end of the world, unless it is.