[3.5ish] Gestalt Characters game - anyone interested?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:50 pm

Wait, so, does that mean my invocations are going to suffer spell failure?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:59 pm

DrPraetor wrote:Well, "Tomb Tainted Soul" could become "Life Tainted Soul" when you become undead, but okay. In general I don't like Backgrounds but in this case I'll allow it.

So instead of having spent a feat on nothing, he would have spent a feat on a disadvantage?

That's even dumber.

DrPraetor wrote:Oh, right, I almost forgot! I don't believe in the Natural Spell feat. Good catch Kaelik.

Oh, well then you are a double idiot.

If you are going to play with such absurdly stupid houserules, you had damn well better mention them so that people are aware that Druids are just not allowed to use their class features in your games.

Endovior · Post by **Endovior** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:13 pm

Pretty sure he's talking about the Armored Battle Caster feat, not class abilities that let you cast in armor normally. That's a particularly puzzling pet peeve, since you can only take that feat if you already have the ability to ingore arcane spell failure from a given level of armor (ie: if you're a marginal caster, like a Bard or a Warmage). Or, maybe he's talking about the Armored Mage ACF for Fighter, of all things; which lets you add the ability to cast in light armor if you happen to be a multiclass Fighter/Caster, and ONLY if you have mostly equal levels in Fighter and your casting class, which makes it incredibly awful. Less awful in Gestalt, I suppose, but still a puzzling choice of ban preference.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:29 pm

Class Abilities which enable you to cast spells in armor are just fine, as are feats which expand that ability if you already have it.

Main reason I don't want Wizard/whoever has a big HD to be able to wear chain mail shirts is because I think Wizards are already overpowered. It's a waste of a feat by the time things get really crazy.

I had forgotten that Natural Spell was in the SRD; I date back to 3.0 when it was in one of the expansions. Anyway, there is so much material that I'm obviously NOT going to list before hand what is and is not allowed. I also don't like feat taxes; so I would either allow Druids to cast spells in Wild Shape (without taking a feat) or I would ban the feat. I think Druids are fine w/out the feat so I'm banning it.

Anyway, if Druid/Totemist is the most broken thing that Kaelik sees on that chart, I'd call it a triumph.

Two ways we could proceed further -
* If you guys want to post characters, I'll go over them again. Use backgrounds if you like, but be prepared to have them vetoed arbitrarily and without recourse to appeal.
* Or, we could figure out if there's a workable time to actually play FIRST. I'd prefer IRC but could also use some kind of java sketch-pad support thing so we can all see eachother scribble with the mouse. I have a sandbox-DM-style such that I improvise from minimal notes before hand, so anything TO preparation heavy is right out.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:39 pm

I think I'd prefer IRC. Shame no one else has shown much interest. Other than Kaelik, in his own special way. I'd almost say just let him play what he wants how he wants just for the third player, and because this is the third or fourth time I've seen him get all excited for an online D&D game, only to get butthurt because he can't build the character he actually wants to play. If you DM sandbox style, it shouldn't be too difficult to deal with things going to crazytown, if they do.

Edit: Also, I'm working on my character currently.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:48 pm

DrPraetor wrote:Anyway, if Druid/Totemist is the most broken thing that Kaelik sees on that chart, I'd call it a triumph.

1) It isn't about what is or isn't the most broken, it's about the fact that your classifications are arbitrary.

You are making a bunch of stupid assertions about how:

Druid//Barbarian
Cleric//Barbarian
Wizard//Barbarian

Are all really good, hence Barbarian being A class.

But worse than that are:

Druid//Duskblade
Cleric//Duskblade
Wizard//Duskblade

And worse than that is

Druid//Hexblade
Cleric//Hexblade
Wizard//Hexblade

And that is plainly stupid. Barbarian gives basically nothing but 1HP, and Hexblade gives flat -2 to enemy saves, and other stuff, Duskblade gives spells and channels.

Your classifications are just as arbitrary and stupid as Tier 3 beguilers.

2) I was talking about real Druids, not Druids who are only allowed to either cast spells or wildshape.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:02 pm

Prak_Anima - Kaelik doesn't want to play, he wants me to use a different class grid than the one I came up with. Or he wants to have an entire list of individually-chosen acceptable combinations, which obviously I'm not going to do. Or he's just arguing now for the sake of it.

The class grid is not arbitrary - it is based on hit die type, fortitude and reflex saves, and skill points. Any actual abilities that these classes give then provide some kind of tie breaker. This may not be the best way to make such a grid but I think it did pretty well.

Barbarians do MAINLY give you not-dying. That this doesn't seem to impress you mystifies me. I don't even know what to say.

Didn't occur to me that Duskblades give you the ability to deliver touch spells with trip attacks. That would probably rate Duskblades as an A, but only to prevent them being paired with Sorcerers or Wu Jen. Duskblade/Cleric sounds cool, so I'm letting it ride.

The hexblade curse! Make a save to make saves at -2! It's true that it's a free ability and you will use it, but I'd much rather have +3 to my fortitude saves, and other barbarian stuff. If anyone objects to Hexblade/Wizard as overpowered I'd be happy to make them a B.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:09 pm

Seemed like he was here because he'd originally been interested. My mistake.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:47 pm

DrPraetor wrote:The hexblade curse! Make a save to make saves at -2! It's true that it's a free ability and you will use it, but I'd much rather have +3 to my fortitude saves, and other barbarian stuff. If anyone objects to Hexblade/Wizard as overpowered I'd be happy to make them a B.

Hexblade familiar gives a -2 to saves with no save.

DrPraetor wrote:The class grid is not arbitrary - it is based on hit die type, fortitude and reflex saves, and skill points. Any actual abilities that these classes give then provide some kind of tie breaker. This may not be the best way to make such a grid but I think it did pretty well.

No, it did completely terribly, and that explains why. You literally claimed that all class features are identical, and worked from there. Of course you end up with A ranked Monks, 3 good classes and 3 terrible classes in each rank using that system.

Endovior · Post by **Endovior** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:09 am

Kaelik wrote:
DrPraetor wrote:The class grid is not arbitrary - it is based on hit die type, fortitude and reflex saves, and skill points. Any actual abilities that these classes give then provide some kind of tie breaker. This may not be the best way to make such a grid but I think it did pretty well.
No, it did completely terribly, and that explains why. You literally claimed that all class features are identical, and worked from there. Of course you end up with A ranked Monks using that system.

This... actually is an excellent point. Class abilities really are the most important part of classes; the numbers just support that. Wizards have mostly terrible everything, except that they have the most awesome magic in the game, and that totally dominates all the other factors. Monks have relatively decent base stats, but fairly terrible abilities, and that makes them an awful class. You seem to have noticed the fact that spellcasters are awesome, and adjusted for that... but for everything else, you seem to have forgotten that class abilities are the important part of a class, and instead attempted to balance based on numbers. Hence Kaelik's rage.

Is it playable? I'd like to think so. You can set any number of arbitrary balance points, after all... and since we're third level, the exponential nature of D20 brokenness is a distant and uncertain spectre, unlikely to deal too much damage within the scope of the campaign.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:16 am

Praetor, would it be too much to ask for a ring of Magic Weapon, CL1, with command word activation to spend my money on?

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:20 am

I have about 25 minutes, so I'll make a character. Not sure if I'll be able to play, due to time zone and other responsibilities, but I may be able to make the occasional game.

Just for the hell of it, I'll post a concept with some stats.

Shaedlings are evil/corrupted pixies. I can't make one with the options listed, but I may be able to emulate one effectively.

Race, Jermlaine. 0 LA.

Class, Shadowcaster//Warlock. an ABC/C class set entitles me to a +1 ECL or something, so the Dark Creature template (+1 LA) from ToM would be a thematic choice. As would the Unseelie Fey (+0 LA) template from the Dragon Compendium book.

net attribute modifiers -10 str, +8 dex, -4 con, -2 int, +6 wis, -4 cha. Fucking horrendous, especially for the classes picked, but I'm in a hurry.

Final attributes. Str 1, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 13. Second array utilised, strength bumped up to 1 from -5.

Notable racial features:

Diminutive size
Creature Type: Fey (extraplanar)
Base speed 50
Hide in Plain Sight (ex)
Wild Empathy (ex)
Resist Cold 10
DR 5/cold iron
iron vulnerability (+1d6 damage from iron allows, including steel)
60' darkvision
Superior low light vision (double low light)
insane bonuses to hide checks from size, race and template.

Potential flight from template (50%), vision bonuses from template negligable (already present).

Warlock- Devils Sight is a priority. The ability to see in magical darkness is awesome.

Shadowcaster- Probably focus on Dark Terrain and Ebon Whispers paths.

Feats: Flyby Attack is a priority if I can have wings, otherwise I'll sink feats into a familliar to gain a flying mount.

Preferred Tactics: Scouting, kiting and ambush.

Background: Needles is a Half Shaedling critter that lives in the sewers. The Jermlaine tribe he belongs to ekes out an existance by sorting though the waste of the city above, they may also occasionally conduct some basic trade by ransoming small valuables back to victims of theft. Their presence is somewhat tolerated due to the fact they keep the local vermin population in check.

Motivation for adventure is something I'm flexible about. Who knows what goes on the the mind of a shadowy moth-rodent?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:17 am

Still working on the character's finishing touches, but I can at least put up some kind of summary.

K'tho'n
Soulknife//Warlock 3 Lolth Touched Thri Kreen (SS, non-psionic) Sword Wraith

K'tho'n is a hired killer. His rates are cheap, because he likes the work and is fond of the meat it yields. He prides himself on his ability to slip weapons into secured areas and leave no evidence.

When he turned 6, and became an adult in his clutch, he simply left. It wasn't entirely unusual for thri kreen to leave the clutch, but it wasn't by any means common for them to do so alone. K'tho'n headed for the nearest settlement, and began hiring out his abilities. When a party of male drow found him in the aftermath of their attack on a caravan he'd been hired to work, sitting a ways off, gnawing the lead merchant's head and counting drow marked gold, they welcomed him in to their group. Eventually they returned to the underdark, where he caught the eye of a priestess, and found himself blessed by the power of Lolth as the priestess began to employ him as her own hired blade. When she inevitably was killed by another priestess, K'tho'n slipped out, heading back to the surface to return to his old life as a killer for the higest bid.
He was slain by drow sent out by the one who slew his previous employer, but none-the-less found himself alive the next night, sustained by his taste for murder.

Invocations are Baleful Utterance and Spiderclimb.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:45 am

So far, these are sufficiently insane, I approve. Ordinarily, I would complain that Winnah is forcing me to remember how Shadow Magic works, but that is so batshit crazy that I'm in awe.

That said - Winnah: I think you have to put at least an 11 in strength, but I'll give you more time to dig around for a possibly-less-nuts template that fits your desire to play a.... shadow moth pixie thing. If that's the closest you can find you can use it, though.

Again - I don't think it worked that poorly, because all class features are weaksauce compared to being a wizard, except for things like Evasion, which I was counting as save bonuses. Once you are a wizard, the only thing that matters is staying alive to be a wizard some more. I may have undervalued some of the defensive class features, but mostly it's saves and HP. For the other class combinations - I don't much care, but I figured the the more deficient magic users might be viable if rewarded by being able to take huge HP, or be a rogue, or any of that obviously nice stuff. If Druids are mildly-if-ever upset about being forbidden to be Barbarians, I don't view that as a weakness but as an irrelevancy - does allowing someone to play a Barbarian maybe tempt you to be a Psion?

Also, I considered the Soul Knife, whose class feature is an embarassment to everyone, to be a "C" in spite of their large hit die.

Kaelik: I just looked in the complete warrior and I cannot find where it says that. You get the same familiar options as a Sorcerer. You do eventually get the ability to incur pretty big nasty Hexblade curses as free actions. However - it is a good thing that I re-read the entry, b/c I had forgotten the Magic Resistance in pricing the Hex Blade! That's a savings throw bonus, so it matters. Yeah, between that and the Mettle, Hex Blades should probably be Bs. Level-appropriate dragon breath still kills you stone dead but you can't win them all. Ah well, I'm not going to mess with it now.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:30 am

DrPraetor wrote:Again - I don't think it worked that poorly, because all class features are weaksauce compared to being a wizard, except for things like Evasion, which I was counting as save bonuses. Once you are a wizard, the only thing that matters is staying alive to be a wizard some more. I may have undervalued some of the defensive class features, but mostly it's saves and HP.

Except you are still stupid. First off, you don't even understand what most of the class features do, which is why you missed that Totemists and Incarnates get Uncanny Dodge and Evasion and save bonuses.

Secondly, you are wrong, because things that boost your offense exist, like Hexblade Dark Companion, or Incarnum, or Duskblade that make you better at offense too.

And staying alive to Wizard more only works if you can Wizard more, which you can't, because you run out of spells. Something to help clean up is really fucking important.

And of course, you completely ignored that actual non combat stuff is important, so when you buy senses and utility powers with the other side of your gestalt, you end up having more Wizard to throw around.

DrPraetor wrote:Kaelik: I just looked in the complete warrior and I cannot find where it says that. You get the same familiar options as a Sorcerer. You do eventually get the ability to incur pretty big nasty Hexblade curses as free actions. However - it is a good thing that I re-read the entry, b/c I had forgotten the Magic Resistance in pricing the Hex Blade! That's a savings throw bonus, so it matters. Yeah, between that and the Mettle, Hex Blades should probably be Bs. Level-appropriate dragon breath still kills you stone dead but you can't win them all. Ah well, I'm not going to mess with it now.

Dark Companion from PHB II, alternate class feature, gives -2 to saves.

And no, a fucking level appropriate Dragon Breath doesn't kill you, because you are a Druid//Hexblade. You have a d10 HD, the highest con of any character because you literally only need two stats, and you get the best access to resists of any character in the game, getting Resist Energy at the same level as the Cleric and Wizard, and getting Energy immunity a level before them, because fuck it, you are a Druid, and you have Wizard offense and Cleric utility on the same list for shits and giggles.

And of course, you also get to have a higher Dex than anyone else without spending points in it.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:13 am

Yeah, I'm not letting people do that who go Hexblade, even if I make it a "B" class. Sorry.

Nor am I inclined to let people take the various other class-feature swaps presented in the PHB II. I would be willing to accept that allowing those would make any project of this kind pretty much impossible.

Ordinarily I would allow small characters to swap out their familiars (since a cute annoying sidekick should never ever have an even cuter and more annoying sidekick:

), but not in that case. That'd be unbalanced for Sorcerers or Wu Jen even.

So a Wizard//Soulborn will have some number of glowing blue magic items, glued directly to his brain. Eventually. Which, you think, for the hypothetical Wizard, makes preventing Wizard/Fighter irrelevant? Because glowing blue things is actually better than going Wizard/Fighter 2 and then Wizard/something else for a bit, getting Combat Expertise and Improved Initiative as free bonus feats? Or are you still obsessing over Druids?

Now, you may very well be right that Druids in particular care a lot about glueing blue souls to their heads and then turning into bears. Well, maybe. Doesn't really matter one way or another to me. Actually, that sounds cool so I'm glad I didn't disallow that. I'm thinking of like a giant bear with a glowing blue diamond in the middle of his forehead. That'd look pretty sweet. Someone want to make a Druid//Totemist?

Then your other position is that Druids are still overpowered even if I don't let them take Natural Spell?

Dominicius · Post by **Dominicius** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:20 am

Am I allowed to be a wizard//psion? Also is Tome stuff in?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:25 am

The way it seems is that Primary Cast//Primary Cast is straight out, so no Wizard//Psion cheese. And Tome classes aren't on the tables, so I'd guess not, but other "works like normal D&D but worthwhile" tome stuff, such as necromancy feats, are allowable pending individual approval.

Edit: I suppose I should ask if it's ok for me to trade out Psychic Strike for bonus feats with the ACF here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:40 am

So, I'm interested in playing a Human Beguiler Swashbuckler- essentially a dashing con artist, swindler, and thief. The only problem is that I'm currently in Australia, so the only times that I'm really able to play, in American time, are evening and really early morning. Is that going to be a problem for anyone?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:43 am

not for me, I already game weekly with an aussie, so as long as this game isn't Tuesday 7-10/11ish my time, (or Thursday/Saturday 5:30-midnight, for my meatspace games) I'm good.

Oh, and given that I can control precisely one ghoul, what is the rule for followers? Gestalt? Not gestalt, what? I was thinking my ghoul could be a Willikin's style manservant to K'tho'n who also has levels in rogue.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:43 am

OK, revised stats using 3rd array, 17 15 14 12 11 7.

str 1, dex 20, con 10, int 15, wis 13, cha 11

Fortunately, even though Shadowcasters and Warlocks both list Charisma as a prime attribute, the attribute is mainly required for determining the difficulty of saving throws. I might end up swapping some of my picks around to reflect this.

RE Shadowcasters: They suck. They could have been an awesome class, but there were some fundamental issues during editing and they obviously suffer from not being playtested.

All that you need to know is that their spells are called Mysteries. Mysteries are broken up according to spell level; Fundamentals (level 0), Apprentice (levels 1-3), Initiate (levels 4-6) and Master (levels 7-9).

Mysteries are cast as spells, though at certain level breaks they can become spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities. Regardless of how they are activated, Mysteries only benefit from feats that effect Mysteries, so no Mortalbane Arrows of Dusk.

You can use each spell you know once per day, each Spell-like twice per day and each Supernatural three times per day. You don't get bonus mysteries known for high attributes. You do not get to cast additional mysteries if you have high attributes (like bonus sorcerer spells for a high charisma).

There are some 'exploits' by which you can add to your spells known by various means, but they are not really game changing or overpowered. You're still a shadowcaster, after all.

Despite their flaws, shadowcasters have a few interesting and flavourful abilities. It's like magic mushrooms growing out of pig shit, only you don't get to wash the shit off after you pick them.

Stat block below.

Needles; Dark Creature, Unseelie Fey, Jermlaine. Shadowcaster 3//Warlock 3
Tiny Fey (extraplanar)
Initiative: +5
Hit Dice: 3d6, 11hp
Speed: 50 feet, Fly 90 (average)
AC: 17 (+2 size, +5 dex) Touch 17 FF 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-11
Attack: Eldritch Blast +9 ranged touch, 60'
Damage: Eldritch Blast 2d6, SR negates
Space/Reach: 2ft/0ft
Special Attacks: Mysteries, Invocations, Season's Power (either Vernal Touch or Summer Caress)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 feet, Superior Low Light Vision, Hide in Plain Sight, Cold Resist 10, DR 5/Cold Iron, Iron Vulnerability, Umbral Sight, Fundamentals of Shadow, Detect Magic (sp)
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +4
Abilities: str 1, dex 20, con 10, int 15, wis 13, cha 11
Skills: Concentration +6, Hide +27*, Intimidate +4*, Knowledge(arcana) +6, Knowledge (the planes) +6, Move Silently +17*, Spellcraft +8, Spot +7
Feats: Flyby Attack, Shadow Cast(b), one to pick
Alignment: Misunderstood

*+8 size bonus to hide, +8 racial bonus to hide, +6 racial bonus to Move Silently, +4 racial bonus to intimidate

Invocations Known

Least: Devils Sight, Entropic Warding

Mysteries Known

Fundamentals: Arrow of Dusk, Black Candle, Caul of Shadow

Apprentice: Carpet of Shadow, Voice of Shadow, Black Fire

Gear: Ratskin bindle, knitting needles, broken glass ornament, ball of twine, ragged wool jumpsuit.

Dominicius · Post by **Dominicius** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:04 am

Prak_Anima wrote:The way it seems is that Primary Cast//Primary Cast is straight out, so no Wizard//Psion cheese.

Since when is Wizard//Psion cheese?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:29 am

the same way that Wizard//Bard would be cheese. Sure, half your effects are lack lustre, but you have a bunch of awesome spells, and would be supplementing with mediocre spells.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:50 am

Jesus Fing Christ it's 4:30 in the morning and I'm still writing.

Korgan0 - I've been drinking Absynthe mixed with red bull. I'm completely out of sync with the sun. Scheduling may be a problem but we'll accomodate people as best we can. You can be a Beguiler//Swashbuckler, as long as you are cool with the balance of the party being... deeply committed to their own self-interests, you know, objectivists. Prak_Anima - but down the baby while I'm talking to people.

Dominicus - you are not allowed to be a Wizard//Psion. Probably this could be abused somehow, but mainly I find it dull. Also, when everyone gets to be a caster it is unfair to be the one person who can't beat an Orc in a punching match.

If you value such things as a schtick, you could go:
Archivist or Sorcerer or Wu Jen //
Divine Mind or Lurk or Psychic Warrior

The Archivist *acts* like a Wizard but gets Cleric spells instead, so is generally pretty wank srsly.
Wu Jen are just wizards who don't get to specialize, so they're okay.

Then Divine Minds, Lurks and Psychic Warriors get some combination of Psionics and other stuff.

For other questions I have to get back to people in the morning afternoon. At first glance, character and trade of psychic strike seems fine, but I'll need to reread.

Dominicius · Post by **Dominicius** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:51 am

Prak_Anima wrote:the same way that Wizard//Bard would be cheese. Sure, half your effects are lack lustre, but you have a bunch of awesome spells, and would be supplementing with mediocre spells.

That makes no sense at all. Only things that can supplement a wizard side are passive things because all instances of the characters action economy is already taken up by casting awesome spells.

A psion does not offer many passive things.