Gestalt argument thread

[DrPraetor]

There's a modified draft below. I've upped the ECL adjustment for Hexblades and Totemists due to Kaelik's kvetching. I'll add the frank's Tomes and the Bo9S material at some point (people can suggest values.)

---
Changelog v3.0: Kelpstrand Nerf, Starting Mental Stat Limit, Archivist to +1.0 and sorta nerfed, Prestige Class Clarification, Beguiler to +0.5... did I forget anything?

Here's how it works. For each level you take, you get a combination of the features of two different classes (you get the better of the two options, generally speaking.)

However, each class is given an ECL modifier, and the ECL modifier for the two classes you take must be 0 or less, plus possibly a modifier from your race. So if you take two classes with a total ECL of -2 you can be a Lolth-touched (+1 ECL), non-psychic thri-kreen (+1 ECL), for example.

A few classes don't quite fit into this structure - the Wilder and the Bard are neither full casters nor full non-casters, but they have some class features that we might want to preserve. Therefore, you can be a triple gestalt if you wish, but your ECL is increased by +1.5 if you do so. You could be a Bard (-0.5)//Mystic (+0.0)//Samurai(-1.0), for example (that even makes a kind of sense.)

You can multi-class freely but all gestalt combinations you take must abide by these restrictions, and it's generally not a good idea to sacrifice full-casting for any reason. Thus a Wizard//Soulknife might multi-class as a Wizard//Samurai, but probably wouldn't multiclass as Bard//Mystic//Soulknife even though he can. The +2 bonus to saves at 1st level can only be gained once for saves in each category; class feature s are additive across different gestalts that contain the same class but saves and such are independent.

Example: A Wizard//Soulknife 2, Wizard//Samurai 1 has all the class features of a third level wizard, but he has the savings throws, hit dice etc. of a multi-class character with 2 levels in one class and 1 level in another (thus doesn't get the +1 to saves for being 3rd level in one class.)

You aren't actually required to be a Primary Caster//Fighter gestalt, but it's kind of silly to be anything else unless you are aiming for a low ECL to qualify to be a Lolth-Touched thri-kreen (which is perfectly acceptable especially at lower levels.)

All "Canon" 3.5ed material is acceptable, except the various class feature swaps must be cleared individually; as is the material from the various Tomes (so you can be a "Tome Monk" or a "Vanilla Monk", as you wish, but the ECL modifier on the Tome Monk is higher), except for the feats which are altered to feat progressions. Also, no Prestige Classes are used, unless you want to implement them later.

Flaws should probably be used; alternatively, you can convert all the feats in your game to feat progressions but this is a lot of work.

Class	ECL	Aln	HD	F	R	W	SP	Powers	Book
Archivist	+1.0	**	D6	+	-	+	4	Prepared+: Any Divine, Dark Knowledge	HoH
Ardent	+0.0	**	D6	-	-	+	2	Psionics, Four Mantles	CPs
Aristocrat	-1.0	**	D8	-	-	+	4	Wealth*	DMG
Artificer	-0.5	**	D6	-	-	+	4	Any-: Infusions, Item Creation, Craft Reserve**	ECS
Binder	-0.0	**	D8	+	-	+	2	One Vestige, Two Abilities, Bonus Feat	ToM
Barbarian	-0.0	c*	D12	+	-	-	4	Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Speed	PHB
Bard	-0.5	c*	D6	-	+	+	6	Fixed-: Bardic, Bardic Music, Light Caster	PHB
Beguiler	+0.5	**	D6	-	-	+	6	Any: Beguiler, Light Caster, Trapfinding, Feints	PH2
Cleric	+0.5	**	D8	+	-	+	2	Prepared+: Cleric, Two Domains, Turning / Rebuking	PHB
Crusader	???	B9S
Divine Mind	-0.5	**	D10	+	-	+	2	Aura, Two Mantles, Minor Psionics	CPs
Dragon Shaman	-0.5	!n	D10	+	-	+	2	Aura, Dragon Stuff, Lay on Hands, Breath Weapon	PH2
Dragonfire Adept	???	DrM
Dread Necro	+1.0	*e	D6	-	-	+	2	Any: Necromantic, Necromancy, Rebuking	HoH
Druid	+0.5	!x	D8	+	-	+	4	Prepared: Druid, Wild Shape	PHB
Duskblade	-0.5	**	D8	+	-	+	2	Fixed-: Duskblade, Medium Caster, Magic Sword	PH2
Expert	-1.0	**	D6	-	-	+	6	Choice of skills	DMG
Favored Soul	+0.0	**	D8	+	+	+	2	Fixed: Cleric, Energy Resist, Fixed Feat	CDv
Fighter	-0.5	**	D10	+	-	-	2	Feats	PHB
Healer	+0.0	*G	D8	+	-	+	4	Fixed: Healing	MiH
Hexblade	-0.0	*e	D10	-	-	+	2	Light Caster, Mettle, Feat, Magic Resist, Hex, MinMag	CWa
Incarnate	-0.5	!X	D6	+	-	+	2	Incarnum Stuff	MoI
Knight	-0.5	L*	D12	-	-	+	2	Armored Mobility, Defenses, Fixed Feats	CWa
Lurk	-0.5	**	D6	-	+	+	4	Sneak Attack--, Augment, Minor Psionics	CPs
Marshal	-0.5	**	D8	+	-	+	4	Aura, Grant Move	MiH
Monk	-0.5	L*	D8	+	+	+	4	Monk Stuff, Fixed Feats, Speed, Evasion	PHB
Mystic	+0.0	**	D8	+	-	+	2	Fixed: Cleric, Domain	DLC
Ninja	-0.5	**	D6	-	+	-	6	Sudden Strike, Trapfinding, Poison, Ki Dodge, Invis.	CAd
Noble	-0.0	**	D8	-	+	+	4	Inspirational, Favors, Wealth*	DLC
Paladin	-0.5	LG	D10	+	-	-	2	Grace, Lay on Hands, Smite, Mount, MinMag	PHB
Psion	+0.0	**	D4	-	-	+	2	Psionics, Two Feats, Psicrystal	EPH
Psychic War	-0.5	**	D8	+	-	-	2	Bonus Feats, Psionics	EPH
Ranger	-0.5	**	D8	+	+	-	6	Fixed Feats, Favored Enemies, MinMag	PHB
Rogue	-0.0	**	D6	-	+	-	8	Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Trapfinding	PHB
Samurai	-1.0	L*	D10	+	-	-	2	Staredown, Quick Draw, Daisho, Smite	CWa
Scout	-0.0	**	D8	-	+	-	8	Skirmish, Trapfinding, Evasion, Fast, Uncanny Dodge	CAd
Shadowcaster	+0.0	**	D6	+	-	+	2	Special: Shadow Magic	ToM
Shugenja	+0.0	**	D6	-	-	+	4	Fixed: Shugenja, Elemental Crap	CDi
Sorcerer	+0.5	**	D4	-	-	+	2	Fixed: Wizard, Familiar	PHB
Soulborn	-1.0	xx	D10	+	-	-	2	Minor Incarnum	MoI
Soulknife	-1.0	**	D10	-	+	+	4	Soul Knife +1/+1
Spellthief	-0.0	**	D6	-	-	+	6	Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Magic Stealing, MinMag	CAd
Spirit Shaman	+0.5	**	D8	+	-	+	4	Prepared+: Druid, Spirit Fighting	CDi
Swashbuckler	-1.0	**	D10	+	-	-	4	Grace, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Insightful Strike	CWa
Swordsage	???	B9S
Totemist	-0.0	**	D8	+	+	-	4	Incarnum Stuff	MoI
Truenamer	-1.0	**	D6	-	-	+	2	True Name Magic	ToM
Warblade	???	B9S
War Mage	+0.5	**	D6	-	-	+	2	Any: Blasting, Light Caster, Warmage Edge	MiH
Warlock	-0.5	!p	D6	-	-	+	2	Eldritch Blast, Invocations	CAr
Wilder	-0.5	**	D6	-	-	+	4	Psionics, Surge +2, Elude Touch	EPH
Wizard	+1.0	**	D4	-	-	+	2	Prepared+: Wizard, Fixed Feats, Familiar	PHB
Wu Jen	+0.5	c*	D4	-	-	+	2	Prepared: Wu Jen, Initiative, Spell Secret, Element	CAr

The following canon classes are unusued because they'd break the whole thing in a transparently obvious way:

• Erudite
• Factotium

G = Good
e = not Good
E = Evil
g = not Evil
l = not Chaotic
c = not Lawful
L = Lawful
C = Chaotic
x = not Neutral
* = Any
!p = Any evil or any chaotic
!x = At least one neutral component
!X = Neutral Good, Neutral Evil, Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Neutral
!n = Not true neutral

Additional House Rules, priced into the table above:
All Smite class features have the additional effect that Smitee is Stunned unless they make a Fort save with DC 10 + your Cha Bonus + Smiting Level / 2.

The Wealth class feature means that your starting equipment is 50% more valuable using wealth-by-level. I'm assuming that wealth-by-level goes away after the game begins.

Kelpstrand has two changes. First, it is the Kelpstrand (and not you) which initiates the grapple, based on your ranged attack roll. Second, the Kelpstrand has a grapple bonus equal to your CL + Wisdom Bonus + 2 (6 near the shore). Otherwise the spell is unchanged.

Starting Mental Attributes are capped at 20. This generally means that the races and templates which provide mental stat bonuses of +4 or better are not worth it, although depending on how the GM prices attributes they may still be good.

Archivists can learn spells off of the casting lists of any Divine spellcaster in the table above, including Druids, Rangers, Paladins and Shugenja. Divine Bards do not exist, neither do the spell lists associated with any prestige classes. Domain spells cannot be learned by Archivists (unless they also appear as non-domain spells); this is to deal with the domain explosion implied by using all the source material. You can buy the scrolls with your initial money and just copy them; if you want to use the lower level found on a non-primary-spellcaster list, you have to pay double the usual cost as a scarcity premium (thus, a scroll of Holy Sword should technically cost only CL 7 * 4th level * 25gp = 700gp, but we're charging 1,400 gp instead because presumably 14th level Paladins with Scribe Scroll are able to charge a premium for their services.)

House Rules which don't exist, whatever you may read below:
Acid Spittle, Personally I wouldn't allow this spell but it's not going to break the system either way, although it will annoy the hell out of you.

Natural Spell, Personally I don't allow this feat at all. If you make Druids +1.0 and give Natural Spell as a free bonus feat at 6th level, this makes some people happy but locks out a good share of the more fun Druid gestalts.

[Kaelik]

Ignoring the classes that I don't know well enough to deal with:

1) You fucking idiot, be honest. It's not kvetching, it's being completely right when you were completely wrong because you ranked them without knowing what any of their class features do (Also, you changed the Incarnate and Soulborn).

EDIT: 2) I started to give opinions, but then I noticed you edited the whole post changing every single thing I looked at, so fuck you it's not worth my time to try to figure out what is wrong when you keep changing everything constantly.

[Ikeren]

You have Cleric and druid as +0.5 ECL, and Beguiler and Dread Necromancer as +1.0 ECL. Why?

[Surgo]

I'll be honest: I don't really get the point of this.

[DrPraetor]

@Surgo - The idea is to keep the mucking about with the published 3.5 rules to a minimum. Also Gestalt characters are fun.

@Ikeren - For the Beguiler, arguments can be made either way. At low to medium levels, Beguilers are not meaningfully deficient compared to Wizards.
Of course, as you get out of that range the Beguiler starts to suffer.

Dread Necromancers don't - they're really powerful and get better with Frank's Tome of Necromancy stuff (which is in.)

@Kaelik - All I did was change every instance of -1.5 -> -1.0 etc., so whatever comments you were prepping; apparently very fast!; still would've applied. I'm aware of what the various Incarna do - they give you magic items. I underpriced that advantage for the Totemist in particular (who also gives you a large HD and a good reflex save). But to review, the Totemist does not ever give you Evasion. The totemist gives you 25,000 gold.

This benefit varies somewhat with level, of course - and I freely admit I underpriced it. But it's not that I don't know what they do.

I don't know what the guys in B9S do, so suggestions would be helpful.

[Kaelik]

@Kaelik - All I did was change every instance of -1.5 -> -1.0 etc., so whatever comments you were prepping; apparently very fast!; still would've applied.

No, that's not all you did since you also changed the Knight, Healer, and all the 1.0 classes. Like Druid which I of course was going to comment on.

Specifically something like "My entire system is based on a bunch of houserules that I apply and refuse to state explicitly, so my ranking of Druid is completely fucking wrong, but I won't tell you what houserules I expect other people to use with this system, but won't mention."

I'm aware of what the various Incarna do - they give you magic items.

You are an idiot. The Wizard class gives you "Spells" the Healer class gives you "Spells." Knowing that a class gives you items is no more useful than knowing that it gives you spells. Which is to say, not at all until you know what effects these "magic items" give you.

Not to mention stop lying. You straight said "Oh, I know fucking nothing about incarnum and what effects you can get." in the last thread, so don't pretend you totally knew and just mispriced. You specifically said that Rogue gives you Evasion, and the Totemist doesn't give you anything that helps that much, so you are just a lying idiot when you pretend you knew what Incarnum gives people.

But to review, the Totemist does not ever give you Evasion. The totemist gives you 25,000 gold.

But to review, you are an idiot. By that logic Wizard doesn't give you spells since everything it does can be replicated by Staves. Why not just admit that the fucking class gives you Evasion?

[Josh_Kablack]

Sign me up for "I just don't get it"

Like at all.

I kinda thought the point of allowing Gestalt was "I want more powerful classes than normal, but I want something easier than (re)writing entire classes or dumpster diving through spaltbooks+third party+netbook material to set up my game" Writing lengthy and complicated rules to limit Gestalting looks like MORE work than those options and is likely MORE confusing for players to understand.

[DrPraetor]

I changed every -1.5 to -1.0, every -1.0 to -0.5, every -0.5 to -0.0, every +0.5 to 0.0, every +1.0 to +0.5, and every +1.5 to +1.0. Unless I made a couple of typos doing that, which is certainly possible.

It's true that I hadn't read Magic of Incarnum in a while, but it's not that I didn't know what MoI can do (pretty much: anything that you can get out of an equippable magic item), so much that I didn't care. Furthermore, accusing me of lying is amusing when I can trivially go to the other thread and:

I think you are grossly undervaluing +4 hp (at 3rd level you'll have about 26 base with a D10 hit dice, so that's +15% to your total) or a bonus to Ref saves, not to mention various defensive powers like Uncanny Dodge, or some of the defensive feats (like Expertise!) which Fighters can take.
...
The class grid is not arbitrary - it is based on hit die type, fortitude and reflex saves, and skill points. Any actual abilities that these classes give then provide some kind of tie breaker. This may not be the best way to make such a grid but I think it did pretty well.
...
Again - I don't think it worked that poorly, because all class features are weaksauce compared to being a wizard, except for things like Evasion, which I was counting as save bonuses.

Now in case that was confusing - I meant: Evasion was serving as a tie breaker, rather than as an improved save progression by itself.

So nothing about Incarnum not giving you Evasion. It's true that I probably undervalued Evasion - and Incarnum for that matter, sure - when I constructed the Grid. So if you want to make a better grid you should price those in more effectively. But why Incanum, rather than Paladins? I have Paladins as a -0.5 class and they give +Cha to all saves, stackable with other categories of bonuses. You're complaining about Incarnum for some reason?

In most games of D&D, if you use the various magic item pricing rules, the Wizard is very much equivalent to (total levels of slots) * (level) * 25gp per day. There are exceptions to this - the wizard can have feats, and gets a stat bonuses to his save DCs and such. Also at 5th level that is already (9 + 12 + 5) x 125 = 2K gp per day. But yeah, if you had another class which shat out 2K gold of Magic Items every day at 5th level, that'd probably be roughly equivalent to a 5th level Wizard. If you ran a few games i'm sure you could come up with an Artificer variant who was balanced against the Wizard on craft reserve alone, because the game really only lasts so long.

But it would be a huge fuck tonne bigger than the relative pricing advantages given to the various Incarnum classes, i'm sure of that.

Let's forget that house rule; which you noticed I excised from the list above (although I'd continue to use it it any game which I actually ran). You think Druid should be a +1 if they're allowed to take a feat which enables them to cast spells in Wildshape? Or you're just frothing at the mouth about this topic for some reason?

Not to mention stop lying. You straight said "Oh, I know fucking nothing about incarnum and what effects you can get."

And for future reference, that is a lie. It is an objective, factual statement. Those are full quotes. I just searched the entire thread, and I never said any such thing. Also, amidst all the sturm and draum, have you admitted that you don't know how wild shape uses are accounted for? You made a huge ass of yourself over it also. What bearing does that have, regarding your (apparently deeply held) convictions about how Druids should be priced relative to other things?

[Kaelik]

I didn't know what MoI can do (pretty much: anything that you can get out of an equippable magic item), so much that I didn't care.

Once again 1) MoI can allow you to do a lot of things you can't do with equipable magic items. You dumb shit.

2) Yes, I remember that you specifically said you don't care about stupid class features which never matter, only saves and HD, which is why you rated Monk and Barbarian as the best, and Wizard as the worst (Oh that's right, Wizards have good class features, so why do class features matter for Wizards but not for anyone else so that you don't read them.)

That's why you are an idiot.

But why Incanum, rather than Paladins? I have Paladins as a -0.5 class and they give +Cha to all saves, stackable with other categories of bonuses. You're complaining about Incarnum for some reason?

Because Incarnum gives more and better bonuses than Paladin unless you are a Cha based caster. And the only Cha based casters have good will saves, defenses against fort saves (undead or Wings of Flurry) and also pretty good defenses against Ref saves.

And of course, since you keep being an idiot, if you ever read MoI, you'd know that their save bonuses also stack with everything.

In most games of D&D, if you use the various magic item pricing rules, the Wizard is very much equivalent to (total levels of slots) * (level) * 25gp per day. There are exceptions to this - the wizard can have feats, and gets a stat bonuses to his save DCs and such. Also at 5th level that is already (9 + 12 + 5) x 125 = 2K gp per day. But yeah, if you had another class which shat out 2K gold of Magic Items every day at 5th level, that'd probably be roughly equivalent to a 5th level Wizard. If you ran a few games i'm sure you could come up with an Artificer variant who was balanced against the Wizard on craft reserve alone, because the game really only lasts so long.

But it would be a huge fuck tonne bigger than the relative pricing advantages given to the various Incarnum classes, i'm sure of that.

Which has nothing to do with the fact that if you reduced the Barbarian to it's equivalent gold amount, it would be less than the Totemist/Incarnate/Soulborn/Rogue/anything at all.

Now in case that was confusing - I meant: Evasion was serving as a tie breaker, rather than as an improved save progression by itself.

That's just another lie. You said, "except for things like Evasion, which I was counting as save bonuses"

You think Druid should be a +1 if they're allowed to take a feat which enables them to cast spells in Wildshape?

Yes, since they have a comparable spell list to the Wizard and Wildshape, and an AC, and more skill points (not overall, but from class) and d8 HD and two good saves.

And don't be a disingenuous ass about it.

Do you think Wizards are a good class if they are allowed to cast spells?

Of course, because they fucking are you lying shit.

And for future reference, that is a lie. It is an objective, factual statement. Those are full quotes. I just searched the entire thread, and I never said any such thing. Also, amidst all the sturm and draum, have you admitted that you don't know how wild shape uses are accounted for? You made a huge ass of yourself over it also. What bearing does that have, regarding your (apparently deeply held) convictions about how Druids should be priced relative to other things?

Shut up you whiny bitch.

You said that the following things are better than anything incarnum gives:

1) d12 HD and Uncanny Dodge.
2) Evasion and a good Reflex save.
3) d10HD and Combat Expertise.

Even though Incarnum gives you all those things + more stuff.

If you knew what incarnum gives you wouldn't have said that a good Ref save and Evasion is better than a Totemist, because a Totemist gives those things.

I was letting it fucking drop on the Wildshape thing because you are obviously a dumbass who lies constantly, but the point is that it allows them to turn into a creature and back. It defines how they turn into a creature, and how they turn back. They turn back by the duration running out.

[Duke Flauros]

Sign me up for "I just don't get it"

Like at all.

I kinda thought the point of allowing Gestalt was "I want more powerful classes than normal, but I want something easier than (re)writing entire classes or dumpster diving through spaltbooks+third party+netbook material to set up my game" Writing lengthy and complicated rules to limit Gestalting looks like MORE work than those options and is likely MORE confusing for players to understand.

Me neither. The ranking system Praetor used makes little sense. The truenamer can toss around gate, earthquake, and dimension lock at will. The wizard is roughly equal to the archivist, not stronger. The duskblade is ranked worse than the hexblade. The wilder is ranked worse than the barbarian. The fighter is ranked worse than the healer. Anything the dread necro can do can be done by a sorcerer, cleric, or archivist- and he seems to think that the dread necro is twice as good.

[DrPraetor]

@Kaelik - The point is, Paladins get Grace at only second level. However good your other defenses may be, that's a very big bonus for a Cha based caster, of which there are several on the list; even if your defenses are good, going from a 30% chance of being taken out to a 10% chance of being taken out (before your cloak of handsomeness even) is a very big deal.

Interestingly,

Hey dumbass Praetor, did you know that a level 3 Totemist gets Evasion, a bonus to spot, also short range teleports, also two other things? (Those two other things could be a d10 HD, Natural Armor bonus, and Protection from Evil.)

Beginning
at 5th level, you can bind soulmelds to your crown, feet, or
hands chakras.

Which includes the Chakra bind that gives you Evasion. Which means that a Totemist actually has to wait to level 6 to get Evasion, which is what I had remembered. I myself didn't notice this until I started putting together gestalt opposition for the PCs.

Consider for the future: this makes you look really, really stupid, doesn't it? Calling someone else stupid, for failing to consider something that you are yourself getting wrong? If you were even-slightly less of a raging ass about it, I'd have a certain amount of sympathy because this magic of incarnum book is deeply inscrutable. So even though I had read it, I was perfectly willing to be told that I was totally mistaken about how it worked.

But I was right, and you are raging bellicose fool, fond of calling people names while getting things wrong yourself.

Now, 6th level is a big jump because you get to assign 2 Essentia to your individual save bonuses. That's pretty fucking sweet, no question. But I'm not entirely sold that X 6//Totemist 6 is really comparable in power with, say, X 3//Paladin 3 + X 3//Rogue 3, which you could have instead.

@True Namers -
that I haven't read in a while.

They're -1 in the table because originally you were required to take them as a non-magic Gestalt half, and if you're a Wizard anyway you'd rather have saves. So call that an error; but I recall that True Namers had a power level that was heavily influenced by playing "Mother may I?" with the DM. Possibly best to just drop them entirely.

@Duskblade vs Hexblade
The Hexblade gets to add his Cha bonus to all his saves vs Spells. That's most of your saves. I may have over-reacted to that one; or, possibly, the Duskblade should also be +0, but I tend to value passive bonuses here. I've got a Cleric//Duskblade build in the gestalt game I'm trying to start which does not, to me, seem abusive.
But Duskblade//Wu Jen may very well be abusive so Duskblade should probably be upped to -0.0; should Hexblade be -0.5? I don't have strong opinions on this one.

@Dread Necros, Druids, Archivists, Wizards relative to one another -
So the consensus is more like:
Druid +1
Archivist +1
Wizard +1
Dread Necro +0.5
??

Possibly I've just seen too many of Frank's Dread Necro builds, but I personally have a lot more respect for Necromancy than I do for the various stuff that Druids get.

Archivists are in another mother-may-I situation. They really only get Cleric spells, unless the DM feels like making Ranger, Druid and Blackguard spells available for regular purchase. I suppose that's the default assumption which would make Archivists pretty good.

Does someone care to post a few abusive 9th level builds? I think 9th level is a reasonable reference point.

[Kaelik]

Hey dumbass Praetor, do you know what the Great Raptor Mask does when it is bound to the Totem Chakra that Totemists get at level 2?

See, I don't find MoI to be very inscrutable so much as poorly organized. But I would never think to claim to be adjudicating how to balance the classes without putting in the work to know the material well enough to... I don't know, know how to find out what level Totemists can get Evasion.

Much less refuse to admit that I don't know the material when someone who does repeatedly points it the fuck out over and over while I continue to not understand the material.

Protip: The answer to the above question is "Gives Evasion." I wouldn't want to you have to attempt to read the inscrutable MoI book to find out how fucking stupid you are.

[Orion]

Don't allow people to multiclass. It's totally unnecessary when you're already a gestalt and it makes the rules cry in many many ways.

[Dominicius]

This is all completely pointless and just makes things more confusing instead of less.

[erik]

This is all completely pointless and just makes things more confusing instead of less.

[Duke Flauros]

@True Namers -
that I haven't read in a while.

They're -1 in the table because originally you were required to take them as a non-magic Gestalt half, and if you're a Wizard anyway you'd rather have saves. So call that an error; but I recall that True Namers had a power level that was heavily influenced by playing "Mother may I?" with the DM. Possibly best to just drop them entirely.

They weren't, but you should.

@Duskblade vs Hexblade
The Hexblade gets to add his Cha bonus to all his saves vs Spells. That's most of your saves. I may have over-reacted to that one; or, possibly, the Duskblade should also be +0, but I tend to value passive bonuses here. I've got a Cleric//Duskblade build in the gestalt game I'm trying to start which does not, to me, seem abusive.
But Duskblade//Wu Jen may very well be abusive so Duskblade should probably be upped to -0.0; should Hexblade be -0.5? I don't have strong opinions on this one.

How you break a duskblade is by self-buffing to awesomeness. This is much easier with a cleric than a wu jen.

@Dread Necros, Druids, Archivists, Wizards relative to one another -
So the consensus is more like:
Druid +1
Archivist +1
Wizard +1
Dread Necro +0.5
??

It isn't that exact.

Possibly I've just seen too many of Frank's Dread Necro builds, but I personally have a lot more respect for Necromancy than I do for the various stuff that Druids get.

It's certainly possible to break a dread necro, but druids get broken much more easily and quickly. Without the same amount of min-maxing, the druid is usually better.

Archivists are in another mother-may-I situation. They really only get Cleric spells, unless the DM feels like making Ranger, Druid and Blackguard spells available for regular purchase. I suppose that's the default assumption which would make Archivists pretty good.

DM's can do the same thing for wizards. Hell, you can do that fighters by removing their shinies. The only classes that can really survive being shortcharged are clerics and druids.

Does someone care to post a few abusive 9th level builds? I think 9th level is a reasonable reference point.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... ter._EVER.
See also: dragonwrought kobold oldies, hulking hurler, festering cancer mage.

[...You Lost Me]

Mark me down as another one not understanding why this is helpful.

Let High-level classes gestalt with a medium-level class, and if they don't take trap options then you basically have yourself a very-high-level class.

[DrPraetor]

The basic purpose of the thing is to get people to use those various non-trap classes.

@Kaelik - Well, see? If I'd been nasty about it, then I'd look foolish.

Your fundamental argument is false, however - the list doesn't have to be perfect, or even reflect a full understanding of what all is being rated, to serve it's purpose. As demonstrated, I got a:
thri-kreen Soulknife//Warlock
a Beguiler//Swashbuckler
a Cleric//Duskblade
and a Druid//Binder
which is pretty much exactly what I was hoping for.

I might have gotten the exact same thing without making any kind of restricted list, but I doubt it (in particular the Cleric//Duskblade was clearly a plan as soon as he saw Gestalt - the thri-kreen would've had other classes presumably). Also none of the players I got are interested in arguing about rules with me, which is an unexpected benefit of finding a set of house rules that makes anyone inclined to argue, argue automatically. Helplessly, compulsively even. That's a huge benefit right there, even if the incentive it sets up is intrinsically perverse; the alternative is I might actually be trying to run a game with you and Dominicus in it.
This also covers the various existential questions about why I bothered with this at all. The pilot run was, from my point of view anyway, a smashing success. With no totemists in it.

@Orion - You have to let people multiclass. Otherwise, you have to price things in like "will be forced to take all 20 crap levels of this", and so on.
It's bad enough when someone is a Dread Necro for levels 1-7 just because they're hoping for the 8th level payout; if someone avoids being a Fighter at all because they dread being forced to take levels 3+, that's worse. The rules get a bit contorted (by allowing multiclassing) but it's not that bad.

On the subject of Dread Necros - with the Tome of Necromancy stuff, a 9th level Dread Necro simply expects to have about 100HD worth of undead, and can easily have far more. Unless you go deep into Planar Binding cheese (and of all the spells to get, Dread Necros do get that one) that's comparable to a brokener-than-average wizard build.

As for duskblade self-buffing being broken: it just isn't. It's good - you run around really fast, you stab people and they fall over, that's all great. What would be broken would be casting Stinking Cloud and Web on the same turn as a 5th level character.

Yeah, the Dread Necro has all kinds of problems. Up until level 8 you are basically a Sorcerer with light-armour casting and slightly sup-bar spell selections; after level 8 you have Animate Dead and are equivalent in actual power level to many of the supposedly-super-broken builds of other classes without trying.

The Beguiler has the opposite problem. Below level 9 or so you're clearly better than a Sorcerer; not as good as a Wizard, at odd numbered levels anyway so half the time. After level 9 you peter out with the corresponding magic schools.

So taking the long-haul view, the Dread Necro has to stay +1 but the Beguiler is definitely +0.5, even if that means no-one plays a Sorcerer. No-one was going to play a sorcerer anyway.

Could go either way on Druids and Archivists. I like Archivists so don't want to make them +1.0. I see a lot of fapping to the raw power of druids (combined with the odd complaint that taking away their ability to cast spells in Wild Shape is an unacceptably severe nerf...) but beyond the assertion that their spell list is as good as Wizard (which it clearly isn't), I don't see much there.

[Korgan0]

The Beguiler has the opposite problem. Below level 9 or so you're clearly better than a Sorcerer; not as good as a Wizard, at odd numbered levels anyway so half the time. After level 9 you peter out with the corresponding magic schools.

I'm playing the Beguiler//Swashbuckler, and that's totally not true at all. It would be if Beguilers got spells from Enchantment and Illusion, and they don't. They can only choose additional spells from those schools- a lot of their best spells come from other schools entirely, including a lot of the big ticket uber-spells. They get their fair share of ninth-level Fuck You spells in Time Stop and Foresight, along with Power Word: Kill, Mass Hold Monster and Dominate Monster for good measure. They miss out on Shapechange, Wish, Gate, and Prismatic Sphere. They can't pull as much uber-high level fuckery as a Wizard, but they're respectable. At eighth level, Beguilers also get some big-ticket stuff, namely Mind Blank and Discern Location, and Scintillating Pattern is a pretty good no-save Fuck You, especially to low-HD creatures.

There's one very important thing you're ignoring, though, which is that any spells the Beguiler adds to their list can also be cast spontaneously. If I had a better attribute layout I could use Arcane Disciple to grab a lot of the spells I'm missing, but since spells from Arcane Disciple cast off Wisdom that path is pretty much barred to me unless I luck out and somehow get a +6 wisdom item, fucking WBL straight in the ass. Even without Arcane Disciple, I still have runestaves, Rainbow Servant, and all manner of other fuckery to add spells to my list, which I can then use whenever I goddamn well want. That makes Beguilers a lot better at high levels than you're making them out to be, as it's at high levels that you'll be getting stuff through Rainbow Servant, Runestaves, and other stuff.

[Kaelik]

@Kaelik - Well, see? If I'd been nasty about it, then I'd look foolish.

You were nasty about it, but you'd look foolish either way, because you are foolish. Don't ever stop lying.

(combined with the odd complaint that taking away their ability to cast spells in Wild Shape is an unacceptably severe nerf...) but beyond the assertion that their spell list is as good as Wizard (which it clearly isn't), I don't see much there.

This is one of those things where you have to actually know the Druid spell list to be able to make appropriate judgments about balance, and the fact that you think you can balance things sans knowledge makes you look like an idiot.

The Druid spell list is comparable to the Wizard in attacks spells, and comparable but different in utility. Buffs are more complex, but they have better HP/saves and Wildshape as well in addition to having overall comparably good buffs.

Now, if you made it so Wizards can only cast spells during the day, they would still be a power class, but that would be an unacceptable nerf. Not because of it's severity, but because of it's stupidity.

Saying that a full caster class that transforms has to give up the ability to cast spells when it transforms is unacceptable because it takes away the point of the class for large parts of the day.

[DrPraetor]

Saying that a full caster class that transforms has to give up the ability to cast spells when it transforms is unacceptable because it takes away the point of the class for large parts of the day.

So you are categorically opposed to any class feature which requires tactical sacrifices in different circumstances? To belabor the point - until they're fairly high level, Wizards do not get to choose whether it is day or night at any given time. That said, if you're going to let Druids cast spells in Wild Shape, you don't charge a feat tax for it, which was the hateful mewling compromise built into 3.5.

The better HPs and Saves certainly help Druids overall as a Class - but a D8 HD and good fort save are not fantastic in a gestalt.

As for the spell list - unless you count Throw Ice Cube Cometfall, that's just not true (and, yes, Cometfall needs to be excluded in errata; mainly because of what it implies about how the world works rather than because it's broken of itself, although it is.)

Wizards get Contingency at 6th level. Even the completely crazy stuff in Complete Divine (except Cometfall, the existence of which implies that a Wizard can do the same thing at 7th level) just doesn't compete with that; and however unbalanced Haboob and legion of druids with lightsabers... sorry, Brilliant Aura may be, significantly out-of-line with the Druid spells in the SRD, they are not as good as the Wizard spells of the same level.

In the assymptotic limit where Druids get every Wizard spell, only made out of wind, ice or sunlight instead, it'd be true that Druid spellcasting was just like Wizard spellcasting, but even... Races of the Dragon has a druid spell in it (picked a book at random), which is pretty sweet for a second level spell but still not comparable to Web.

This gets back to the basic question - yes, there may very well be even more broken Druid spells that I don't know about; which would justify either errata-ing them out or raising the Druid to +1. But your basic assertion - that the entire endeavor isn't worthwhile because I haven't read the Druid spells in... Ghostwalk? - flies in the face of my recent experiment, for which this set up worked quite keenly. So, I'm hardly going to find that argument persuasive.

[Kaelik]

1) I am against any class features which deprive a full casting class of casting. I am also against any class features that say "The fighter may scout, but he has to give up the ability to fight at all, and he instantly loses if anyone sees him."

I am against any class feature which completely negates the main class feature of the class.

2) No you dumb ass, I'm saying that you are a fucking idiot who has never read the Druid list anywhere, not in the PHB and not in the SpC, and not at all. Druids don't get Contingency, instead they get Energy Immunity a level earlier, d8 HD, good Fort save and Wildshape. But if you read what I actually wrote, which is that they get a comparably good list of attack spells and utility, you would be honest and look at their actual kill spells.

So for example, you could look at level 3 when Wizards have Color Spray, Sleep, Wall of Smoke in their level one slots and Web and Glitterdust in their level 2 slots.

Meanwhile, Druids have Entangle and Wall of Smoke in their level one slots, and Kelpstrand, Blinding Spittle, and Salt Ray in their second level slots. And an AC that spits a cone of blinding poison.

Sure Glitterdust is better for lots of enemies than any of the Druids level 2 spells, but fuck, Entangle is the actual fucking best if you have an archer party and they are melee, and Druids have no save Blind if you are facing single target and a small AoE blind if they want it.

And at level 9, when Wizards have Baleful polymorph, flesh to ice, cloudkill, illusory feast, and wall of stone, Druids have Baleful Polymorph, Flesh to Ice, Control Winds, Wall of Thorns, Sleep Mote, Call Avalanche, and they can still use Kelpstrand and Blinding Spittle, because unlike spells with saving throws (or sleep or color spray), those scale well with level.

Both of those lists look pretty damn comparable to me.

EDIT: And what the fuck is your deal with Cometstrike? It's a 9th level spell that is only averagely powerful for 9th level, and why would a Druid doing that at 17th level automatically mean that a Wizard could do it at 7th? Are there spells that do that 7th level? No. The ability to use Conjuration Creation spells to create something at level 17 does not mean that at level 7 (Why not 1, Wizards can use Conjuration Creation at level 1?) Druids can cast Shapechange, does that mean that level 7 Wizards must be able to use supernatural abilities of things they turn into? Or does it mean that 9th level spells are more powerful than lower level spells?

[ishy]

I have no clue why you are doing this, but it looks like you are trying to somehow rate how powerful each class is.
Problem with that is that some classes are just stronger at different levels and even more importantly people play the same class in different ways.

Lets grab a lvl 1 rogue who wants to multi-class into marshall for example.
Rogue A : does it for the minor aura and gains skill focus: diplomacy as a bonus
Rogue B : grabs skill focus: diplomacy before taking the class and now selects the epic feat: Perfect two-weapon fighting

I think it is clear that rogue B will be significantly more powerful than rogue A, even though in your case the class will have a rating that either reflects the power for rogue A or B but can't reflect it for both.

[Duke Flauros]

Praetor, what you have continuously failed to realize is that in a gestalt game, the strength of each class vs each class doesn’t matter, the strength of each gestalt vs each gestalt does. While the soulborn is normally weak, it can help casters whore metamagic with midnight metamagic. A Wizard/factotum is more useful than a wizard/sorcerer, as a factotum’s abilities synergize with a wizard well (cunning surge and cunning breach in particular), and all a sorcerer grants is extra spells that rely on a dump stat. With font of inspiration, a factotum/anything can take a minutes worth of actions in one round.

[Prak]

Lets grab a lvl 1 rogue who wants to multi-class into marshall for example.
Rogue A : does it for the minor aura and gains skill focus: diplomacy as a bonus
Rogue B : grabs skill focus: diplomacy before taking the class and now selects the epic feat: Perfect two-weapon fighting

Ok, side stepping the fact that not even I would let someone do something that wanky, Rogue B isn't going to be any more effect than someone who took normal Two Weapon Fighting, such as if Rogue A took it as his first level feat. Even when they each have two attacks and are looking at taking 9th level feats, the only difference is that Rogue B automatically gets a second off hand attack, where as Rogue A has to take ITWF. And if they were in the same game, the DM could just say that TWF has the text of PTWF with the prerequisites of TWF, and the only fallout would be Rogue B gets butthurt that he doesn't get to be a clever dipshit. If they aren't in the same game, then it really doesn't matter that one is more adept at abusing the rules than the other. Broken sure, but it doesn't matter that one player in one group knows how to save a couple feats and another player in another group doesn't.