Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Tardzilla]

So what? Abundant Ammo pretty explicitly clones the ammo in the quiver. There is a vague case that can be made for your argument, but it's pretty damned dumb.

Not really? It's a spell, it does what it says it does, and no more. And it says it works on spells that enchant projectiles like align weapon and greater magic weapon, which work on 50 projectileS. A literal interpretation of the text therefore rules out named bullet, on the grounds that named bullet does not work on projectiles plural but only a projectile singular, unlike the spells enumerated which are specified as working with Abundant Ammunition.

The dumb thing is using 50 named bullets, which looks very much like wishful thinking to me, as named bullet is very much not like the spells listed, as it doesn't enchant projectiles but a single projectile. A pretty big difference, like the difference between suffocate (level 5) and mass suffocate (level 9).

I think reading the spell, it's pretty clear - especially in the knowledge that there are lots of spells that actually are like align weapon which presumably are the ones Abundant Ammunition is actually talking about. Spells like Daybreak Arrow, or Flame Arrow. It could be better written with less ambiguous language I suppose, but that particular combo still looks like wishful thinking in my mind.

Yeah, I can see where enthusiastic game breakers can possibly blag an alternative reading into it, but only if you are quite generous with your inferences and assume that them referring specifically to the plural is merely an artifact of the English language. Sure, I guess? It's blaggable. But I don't see why any GM would ever be forgiving about this particular inference given a) it's obviously pretty broken b) obviously against the spirit of the spell and c) not even compatible with a literal interpretation of what the spell says or the examples given.

[Username17]

Tardzilla, that is frickin retarded and you should feel ashamed of yourself. Greater Magic Weapon and Align Weapon are both Cleric spells, you gonna claim that Abundant Ammunition doesn't work on Druid or Bard spells? WTF?

Now the real discussion is that as far as I can tell, Named Bullet is a pile of donkey dicks, and the ability to use it once per round instead of once ever is fairly meaningless in the scheme of things. It's a 4th level spell and it only works on a specific creature type. And even with the combo it's only one shot per round, which is still ass.

-Username17

[Tardzilla]

Tardzilla, that is frickin retarded and you should feel ashamed of yourself. Greater Magic Weapon and Align Weapon are both Cleric spells, you gonna claim that Abundant Ammunition doesn't work on Druid or Bard spells?

-Username17

In the blessed words of the Virgin Mary - come again.

For starters just about every spellcaster gets greater magic weapon. For seconds, the key thing is projectiles as opposed to projectile, as specified in abundant ammunition, as clarified by the examples the spell gives.

So not like something just pulled out of your ass. Like something the spell actually specifies.

Doesn't change the whole 1 = 50 = many wishful thinking.

As for one a round, um, no? You'd have to cast it multiple times, but you could shoot them all in one round if you wanted. Them being versus a specific creature isnt a huge drag, given you get to choose it. When your hunting a dragon it's for dragons. When your wandering into tombs it's for undead. If you got no clue what's coming, you pick a more general use spell...

[Username17]

For seconds, the key thing is projectiles as opposed to projectile, as specified in abundant ammunition, as clarified by the examples the spell gives.

So not like something just pulled out of your ass. Like something the spell actually specifies.

Doesn't change the whole 1 = 50 = many wishful thinking.

This is not a real thing. You are completely making up this particular specification. The fact that the two example spells happen to affect up to 50 projectiles is of no more interest than the fact that the two example spells appear on the Cleric list or that both spells are lower than 5th level. It's a completely arbitrary and unspecified link between the spells and there is no reason to believe it is in any way important.

Seriously, you are making an argument with schizophrenic paralogic.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

So we're right back to
'Pick the one of these least like the others:
Airplane, Car, Bus, Train'? and people saying that the question CLEARLY wanted you to select Airplane so that's the right answer?

[sabs]

see I would have picked Car

[duo31]

same here, the car isn't a form of mass transit.

[hogarth]

same here, the car isn't a form of mass transit.

Whoosh. His point is that any of them is a valid answer.

[sabs]

Well for me it wasn't woosh I was just being a female dog.

[Dean]

Which means your back to the uncomfortable world of "Ask your DM". That spell is grammatically ambiguous enough to require asking the ruling "What defines the phrase; Enchants Projectiles". There would be several very clear ways of writing this phrase but they have not been used. This is sadly true of TONS of Pathfinder material as it seems to be edited much more shoddily as a rule than Wizards material.

[duo31]

I got the point, i was just being difficult also.

[...You Lost Me]

Only one of them is required to run on tracks: Train.

[sabs]

Shouldn't projectiles be any thrown weapon? I'm not sure how projectiles is an ambiguous term. Javelin, Daggers, bullets, arrows, sperm.

[Dean]

Projectiles as opposed to projectile. Also I throw my sperm at people very infrequently

[Dr_Noface]

Spitting it is much more effective.

[Username17]

Projectiles as opposed to projectile.

A possible answer to the question "How many projectiles do you have?" is always "One.", so the distinction is no distinction. Sometimes a rule may use the singular and by inference never be allowed to affect more than one thing, but the use of the plural never forbids you to affect a single target. Ever.

-Username17

[Prak]

same here, the car isn't a form of mass transit.

Whoosh. His point is that any of them is a valid answer.

I'd have picked train like YLM

Shouldn't projectiles be any thrown weapon? I'm not sure how projectiles is an ambiguous term. Javelin, Daggers, bullets, arrows, sperm.

Actually "projectile" specifically refers to something which is "projected" (typically in a relatively straight-ish line) from a driving object, where as thrown implies a greater arc, from a lever. Which hilariously means that darts and catapult rocks are not valid targets, but arrows, bolts, bullets and, indeed, sperm are.

[DMReckless]

WTF? The spell specifies the target "One piece of ammunition or one thrown weapon" as the target. Doesn't say projectile anywhere. Of course, the spell also says "Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged."

Even if the abundant ammunition summons the same piece of ammo back to your pouch, the Named Bullet spell (which clearly sucks as noted by Frank) has been discharged and no longer functions.

[Username17]

WTF? The spell specifies the target "One piece of ammunition or one thrown weapon" as the target. Doesn't say projectile anywhere. Of course, the spell also says "Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged."

Even if the abundant ammunition summons the same piece of ammo back to your pouch, the Named Bullet spell (which clearly sucks as noted by Frank) has been discharged and no longer functions.

The Abundant Ammunition spell creates new ammunition that is affected by the spells that were affecting the ammunition when it was fired. It totally works, it just sucks.

-Username17

[rasmuswagner]

Whether Named Bullet + Abundant Ammunition works or not, it's crystal clear that you're a bunch of [EDITED] for discussing it like this.

But don't worry, we can all rag on Ultimate Equipment real soon.

[DMReckless]

WTF? The spell specifies the target "One piece of ammunition or one thrown weapon" as the target. Doesn't say projectile anywhere. Of course, the spell also says "Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged."

Even if the abundant ammunition summons the same piece of ammo back to your pouch, the Named Bullet spell (which clearly sucks as noted by Frank) has been discharged and no longer functions.

The Abundant Ammunition spell creates new ammunition that is affected by the spells that were affecting the ammunition when it was fired. It totally works, it just sucks.

-Username17

Abundant Ammunition
"If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell."

Named Bullet
"Duration 10 minutes/level or until discharged"

That Spell has been discharged. As soon as you use the ammunition.

Align Weapon
"Duration 1 min./level"
Greater Magic Weapon
"Duration 1 hour/level"

Nope, they're not discharged after use. So, for example, if you shoot an arrow affected by Greater Magic Weapon and it misses and does not break, you could pick it back up and use it any time during the CL hours duration, until you hit a target or a rock that breaks it. The spell is still in effect. It's just that the ammunition is normally destroyed in use, and the Abundant Ammunition spell essentially keeps that from happening.

Does "all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell." mean that the projectiles are affected by a new casting of that spell? No. Discharged is discharged.

Or we could go back to arguing that "one piece of ammunition" is not the same target as "50 projectiles (all of which must be together at the time of casting)" and Abundant Ammunition's "you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon" clearly does not include a spell whose target does not include the word "projectiles".

Either way, I say thee nay.

But hell, the GM should just let it work so math deficient tards will think this is a great combination of 4th and 1st level spells as opposed to any useful thing they could do with those slots.

[DMReckless]

Especially since the Abundant Ammunition spell has to be cast first (with a duration of 1 min/lvl) and the Named Bullet second (1 hr/lvl or until discharged) in order for the combo to work, so they're likely wasting 2 combat rounds or 2 prep rounds at least with this nonsense.

[Kaelik]

So if I cast Named Bullet on a pellet. And then I cast it on a different pellet.

Then your contention is that it is removed from both as soon as I use one?

The spell is called "Named Bullet" all pellets drawn from the container have "that spell" IE, Named Bullet cast on them.

It does not say "all ammunition is affected by a single casting of that spell."

[DMReckless]

So if I cast Named Bullet on a pellet. And then I cast it on a different pellet.

Then your contention is that it is removed from both as soon as I use one?

The spell is called "Named Bullet" all pellets drawn from the container have "that spell" IE, Named Bullet cast on them.

It does not say "all ammunition is affected by a single casting of that spell."

Nope, my contention is that you've cast 2 spells.

As soon as you use one, that spell has ended.

The other spell hasn't

What is the duration of the greater magic weapon cast on the ammunition summoned by Abundant Ammunition? If I cast AA and then GMW as a 10th level caster, and use the ammo during the 10 minutes the spell is in effect, do some of the arrows in the quiver have 591 minutes left of GMW, some 592, some 593, etc? Or is the duration of the spell determined by GMW and not by AA?

I'd say the duration of GMW determines the duration of the enhancement of the arrows, from the time GMW was cast, not from the time that the AA spell summoned more arrows. I'd say that NB's duration is also the superseding factor here.

[tussock]

The obvious reading is that all summoned projectiles have any spell cast on the container, like what it says. So you fire ten bullets a round, it summons ten bullets. The summoned ammo all has Named Ammo cast on it. Yay, a spell multiplier!

Note that the only function of the spell is to multiply any spells you cast on your ammo for a short time, for high level rangers and such who can fire scores of them in each fight. This is all it does.

Given that spells do what they say they do, this one does too. It's not exactly easy to set up with casting two spells after you know who your opponents are and then firing enough ammo to get the spell copied out, and then getting into a fight before your 1 min/level spell copying machine expires. Considering you could cast some real spells instead.