now hold on I'm not sayin that pc's cant lead hoards of tiny men or be part of the aristocracy
Leadership the feat on pg 106 of the DMG is broken, not only broken but the most broken thing ever printed by Wizards of the Coast excepting only the most generous reading of the Palanar Binding Line and Gate. Any game that uses leadership as a baseline will be unworkable by definition
Fundalmentaly 3e assumes that people with player classes have a CR equal to their level. So let's say a PC McHypothetial levels up from 5th to 6th level the system says his CR goes from 5 to 6 and he takes Leadership. Now Mr McHypothetical atracts a 4th level cohort who by the system is CR 4. The thing is that the CR 6 PC and his CR 4 cohort are acording to the system an EL 7 encounter.
The sound you just heard is the system dividing by zero. The game system can not and should not haldle character options that give your +1 CR just for taking. It breaks one of the fundamental assumptions of the CR system
Leadership has no place in D&D
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Leadership has no place in D&D
Last edited by Mistborn on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Your premise is fucked by Summon Monster 1. A first level wizard can summon CR 1/2 monsters and become EL 2 by the completely fucked CR rules. Druids can have wolf animal companions from level 1, which similarly ups their CR, in addition to being able to cast Summon Nature's Ally.
If anything, Leadership becomes necessary for fighter types at sixth level so that they can inflate their EL, because otherwise they're being overshadowed by the Druid who has a 5-7HD Animal companion, and the wizard who can summon a Hell Hound.
If anything, Leadership becomes necessary for fighter types at sixth level so that they can inflate their EL, because otherwise they're being overshadowed by the Druid who has a 5-7HD Animal companion, and the wizard who can summon a Hell Hound.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
the Druids Animal Companion probably isn't kosher either but for summons in theory they eat up combat actions to call them on to the battlefeild when you cast Summon Monster you give up 1 rounds actions then next round you've got your celestial housecat or whatever and it's takes actions. Over a 3 round fight (which is standard for 3e) you have netted 1 action which is suposed to be offset by using a spell slot and sumoned stuff not being all that awesome. it take 4 round or longer fights and spell slots to even aproch what leadership gives you for the cost of one featPrak_Anima wrote:Your premise is fucked by Summon Monster 1. A first level wizard can summon CR 1/2 monsters and become EL 2 by the completely fucked CR rules. Druids can have wolf animal companions from level 1, which similarly ups their CR, in addition to being able to cast Summon Nature's Ally.
If anything, Leadership becomes necessary for fighter types at sixth level so that they can inflate their EL, because otherwise they're being overshadowed by the Druid who has a 5-7HD Animal companion, and the wizard who can summon a Hell Hound.
Last edited by Mistborn on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Summon Monster eats actions in combat and gives you things weaker than a cohort at all levels they both exist atsabs wrote:Since when is 1 feat slot inferior to 1 spell slot.
A spell slot gives wizards almost as much benefit as a feat slot. Spellcasters also get feats. So really leadership is significantly more expensive than the summon monster lines.
Last edited by Mistborn on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
It costs you 1 action, that the summoned creature gets to use.
As for cohorts being better.
@ level 7 you get monster summoning 4, assuming. You aren't using a ring, or other magic item.
@ level 7 with leadership and a 0 or better charisma, you. Get a 5th level cohort.
Monster summoning 4.. gives you yeth hounds, celestial lions, mephits.
Except that, you have 1 cohort, and technically if I can cast that spell twice, I have. 2 monsters. You can't take leadership multiple times.
Leadership is nice, but it doesn't break the game hard core.
Wizards and clerics broke it before hand
As for cohorts being better.
@ level 7 you get monster summoning 4, assuming. You aren't using a ring, or other magic item.
@ level 7 with leadership and a 0 or better charisma, you. Get a 5th level cohort.
Monster summoning 4.. gives you yeth hounds, celestial lions, mephits.
Except that, you have 1 cohort, and technically if I can cast that spell twice, I have. 2 monsters. You can't take leadership multiple times.
Leadership is nice, but it doesn't break the game hard core.
Wizards and clerics broke it before hand
this is wrong the SM line has a casting time of 1 round so the monster dosen't show up untill the begining of your next turnsabs wrote:It costs you 1 action, that the summoned creature gets to use.
Last edited by Mistborn on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So what? Sure at first level it means you're only EL 2 for one round, which you had to trade a round for, but you can still cast other spells while your celestial badger or fiendish giant spider does it's thing. Fiendish/Celestial creatures can also smite, so if you're a wizard fighting orcs, you summon your celestial giant fire beetle. Next round it appears and bites one for 2d4+1 damage, because it's good and orcs are evil. Meanwhile you're using Burning Hands to kill a couple more. You literally just let the fighter go up front so no one can charge you while you cast, and have him prepare to duck aside on a signal, when you cast burning hands. So you've just done 1d4 fire to every orc in a 15' cone, and 2d4+1 to whichever seems to be their leader (which is 6 damage on average, mind you, enough to kill the average orc).
Or, if you want to do even better, you play a cleric with the good domain, and get celestial giant fire beetles for 2 rounds (a summon spell that calls a good creature is a good spell, and thus you have +1 CL). This is just core. If your dm allows stuff from the Completes, you play a cleric of Tritherion, with the Good and Summoner domains, and cast summon spells that summon good creatures at CL 4. From first level. Meaning that for one round at level one, you have a second fighter for an entire fight. Granted, it can only smite once per day, but after that, it's still doing 2d4. Plus you'd have Augmented Summoning because you're trying to make a point and not stupid, which means the CGFB actually has a 14 strength, and deals 2d4+2 per bite. You can probably do this every combat each day if you just smack things with your mace after your CGFB shows up. At level 2, you have it for five rounds. At level three you upgrade to a Celestial Giant Bombardier Beetle, and can grab extend spell, so that when you cast SM1, it lasts for 12 rounds, if you really want that. Otherwise you can just extend Divine Favour...
Or, if you want to do even better, you play a cleric with the good domain, and get celestial giant fire beetles for 2 rounds (a summon spell that calls a good creature is a good spell, and thus you have +1 CL). This is just core. If your dm allows stuff from the Completes, you play a cleric of Tritherion, with the Good and Summoner domains, and cast summon spells that summon good creatures at CL 4. From first level. Meaning that for one round at level one, you have a second fighter for an entire fight. Granted, it can only smite once per day, but after that, it's still doing 2d4. Plus you'd have Augmented Summoning because you're trying to make a point and not stupid, which means the CGFB actually has a 14 strength, and deals 2d4+2 per bite. You can probably do this every combat each day if you just smack things with your mace after your CGFB shows up. At level 2, you have it for five rounds. At level three you upgrade to a Celestial Giant Bombardier Beetle, and can grab extend spell, so that when you cast SM1, it lasts for 12 rounds, if you really want that. Otherwise you can just extend Divine Favour...
Last edited by Prak on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
No you dumb shits. When your class features give you an ability (especially one that is of short duration) it does not increase your CR.
Part of the CR of a level 5 Cleric is that he can cast Animate Dead, it's in the CR.
No part of anything's CR is that it can take Leadership.
The question is: Does Leadership provide a significantly larger boost in power than any other feat could give.
And the answer is always and without question yes.
Leadership is absurdly imbalanced, and the most powerful feat in the game bar none. It has no place in D&D because it doesn't match the power level of other feats.
Saying that Leadership is an acceptable part of D&D is precisely the same as saying the Beholder Mage is an acceptable PC base class starting from ECL 1.
Part of the CR of a level 5 Cleric is that he can cast Animate Dead, it's in the CR.
No part of anything's CR is that it can take Leadership.
The question is: Does Leadership provide a significantly larger boost in power than any other feat could give.
And the answer is always and without question yes.
Leadership is absurdly imbalanced, and the most powerful feat in the game bar none. It has no place in D&D because it doesn't match the power level of other feats.
Saying that Leadership is an acceptable part of D&D is precisely the same as saying the Beholder Mage is an acceptable PC base class starting from ECL 1.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
As most games are generally structured, Leadership is strictly superior to all other feat options; except possibly Natural Spell (if you've been living as a hideously-deformed freak with junk stats until hitting 6th level).
In terms of the CR accounting, I'm pretty sure that Cohorts do count against the nominal CR of the party (it's in the DMG somewhere can't be bothered to doublecheck); Animal Companions and such definitely do not. This has nothing to do with being a feat or a class feature (Improved Familiars don't increase your nominal CR), but is a special exemption for Cohorots.
In any case, Cohorts definitely get a share of XP and treasure. So as a 6th level character in a party of 5, the Leadership feat is uniquely worse than all other feats in that it costs your party 9% of the total XP, give or take. If, as many people do, you run a game such that this accounting is completely ignored, then you are using the powerful Leadership feat and legislating away it's massive downside. So of course it's going to be unbalanced.
You can reduce every class feature to a $ value. How does Leadership price out, and is it out of line with other feats?
So if you take the text in the DMG guide literally, a Warrior costs 3 sp / level / day. A warrior of-your-level is about as good as a Fighter two levels below you, so there you are - Leadership is worth 3 sp * your level * days, which is not much, as compared to say a ring of +2 reflex saves.
Suppose you get a Wizard Cohort, instead. That's worth a fuck-tonne more - (your level - 2) * (your level / 2 - 1) * 10 gp for the single highest spell slot; typically about five times that total. But even so, (L-2) * (L/2 -1) * 50 gp / day is... about the price of a high level scroll.
So if you view Leadership as a feat: your mercenaries are nominally-free (instead they want a share of the treasure, but they're sticking around so you want to outfit them well anyway) and immensely more loyal - than Leadership is balanced.
The actual problem is that no-one uses the mercenary hireling rules as written, and no-one lets you hire a wizard as a mercenary, or on retainer to follow you around and bill you as needed for individual spells cast in combat. Because you don't let people do that at all, Leadership becomes unbalanced.
Anyway, Leadership is a feat tax, that's the problem. Just give everyone Leadership without charging for it. Everyone has a Cohort, everyone is expected to have a Cohort, the problem is solved.
In terms of the CR accounting, I'm pretty sure that Cohorts do count against the nominal CR of the party (it's in the DMG somewhere can't be bothered to doublecheck); Animal Companions and such definitely do not. This has nothing to do with being a feat or a class feature (Improved Familiars don't increase your nominal CR), but is a special exemption for Cohorots.
In any case, Cohorts definitely get a share of XP and treasure. So as a 6th level character in a party of 5, the Leadership feat is uniquely worse than all other feats in that it costs your party 9% of the total XP, give or take. If, as many people do, you run a game such that this accounting is completely ignored, then you are using the powerful Leadership feat and legislating away it's massive downside. So of course it's going to be unbalanced.
You can reduce every class feature to a $ value. How does Leadership price out, and is it out of line with other feats?
So if you take the text in the DMG guide literally, a Warrior costs 3 sp / level / day. A warrior of-your-level is about as good as a Fighter two levels below you, so there you are - Leadership is worth 3 sp * your level * days, which is not much, as compared to say a ring of +2 reflex saves.
Suppose you get a Wizard Cohort, instead. That's worth a fuck-tonne more - (your level - 2) * (your level / 2 - 1) * 10 gp for the single highest spell slot; typically about five times that total. But even so, (L-2) * (L/2 -1) * 50 gp / day is... about the price of a high level scroll.
So if you view Leadership as a feat: your mercenaries are nominally-free (instead they want a share of the treasure, but they're sticking around so you want to outfit them well anyway) and immensely more loyal - than Leadership is balanced.
The actual problem is that no-one uses the mercenary hireling rules as written, and no-one lets you hire a wizard as a mercenary, or on retainer to follow you around and bill you as needed for individual spells cast in combat. Because you don't let people do that at all, Leadership becomes unbalanced.
Anyway, Leadership is a feat tax, that's the problem. Just give everyone Leadership without charging for it. Everyone has a Cohort, everyone is expected to have a Cohort, the problem is solved.
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Fuck off with the pony murder shit. --Grek
When you talk, all I can hear is "DunningKruger" over and over again like you were a god damn Pokemon. --Username17
Fuck off with the pony murder shit. --Grek
Without the rage, yes. I love summoning as much as the nest conjurer but no spell slot and no other feat is worth leadership. This is especially true when you consider that your lackey can have spell slots.Kaelik wrote:No you dumb shits. When your class features give you an ability (especially one that is of short duration) it does not increase your CR.
Part of the CR of a level 5 Cleric is that he can cast Animate Dead, it's in the CR.
No part of anything's CR is that it can take Leadership.
The question is: Does Leadership provide a significantly larger boost in power than any other feat could give.
And the answer is always and without question yes.
Leadership is absurdly imbalanced, and the most powerful feat in the game bar none. It has no place in D&D because it doesn't match the power level of other feats.
Saying that Leadership is an acceptable part of D&D is precisely the same as saying the Beholder Mage is an acceptable PC base class starting from ECL 1.
I'm not sure how summon mon 1 is good at all when you get it or why you would think it is, like at all, unless we're talking pathfinder (Summoner Class is my fave btw).
From one point of view, Leadership is an incredibly broken feat because it gives disproportionate power. From another point of view, Leadership is in incredibly broken feat because it doesn't do anything.
What, pray tell, prevents a PC who doesn't have leadership from just recruiting a random NPC in a tavern?
What, pray tell, prevents a PC who doesn't have leadership from just recruiting a random NPC in a tavern?
Re: Leadership has no place in D&D
Leadership is an odd feat in that having an NPC travel along with the party could be worth a lot (as you suggest) or nothing at all (since it's possible to convince NPCs to travel with you with Diplomacy or even just by GM fiat).Lord Mistborn wrote:Leadership the feat on pg 106 of the DMG is broken, not only broken but the most broken thing ever printed by Wizards of the Coast excepting only the most generous reading of the Palanar Binding Line and Gate. Any game that uses leadership as a baseline will be unworkable by definition.
Well that's the meat of the issues. Minions, how should they work?hyzmarca wrote:From one point of view, Leadership is an incredibly broken feat because it gives disproportionate power. From another point of view, Leadership is in incredibly broken feat because it doesn't do anything.
What, pray tell, prevents a PC who doesn't have leadership from just recruiting a random NPC in a tavern?
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John Magnum
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DrPraetor:
Where did you find whatever rules you think justify your interpretation of the "real" Leadership?
So, no, having a cohort DOESN'T cost you any XP. The SRD specifically states that the party gets XP as if there was no cohort, and then the cohort ALSO gains additional XP on top of that. Where in the rules text does it say that they take a share of the treasure? You might be inferring that from the line that "The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level," but you make it sound like something much more definitive than that.D20 SRD wrote:The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.
Where did you find whatever rules you think justify your interpretation of the "real" Leadership?
-JM
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Duke Flauros
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At the higher levels, leadership is better, since it can be used to get a permanent army of spellcasters. It's also charisma based, screwing over fighters and monks who it would help most.hyzmarca wrote:From one point of view, Leadership is an incredibly broken feat because it gives disproportionate power. From another point of view, Leadership is in incredibly broken feat because it doesn't do anything.
That relies on bluff/diplomacy- again, something fighters don't get.hyzmarca wrote:What, pray tell, prevents a PC who doesn't have leadership from just recruiting a random NPC in a tavern?
Niao! =^.^=
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@Diplomacy.
Wait, so Leadership has a place in the game because it's not as bad as Diplomacy? Does anyone anywhere ever believe that Diplomacy as written actually has a place in D&D?
I mean look, there is Dungeons and Dragons, and there is Logistics and Dragons. And while people can play either of those, it should not be fucking mandatory to have to play the second one. And Leadership and Diplomacy make it actually fucking impossible to not play Logistics and Dragons without willfully taking a huge fucking nerf to your character.
The fact that despite that the vast majority of all games involve all of the players separately choosing to cooperate instead of defect in the Prisoner's Dilemma of Leadership/Diplomacy should tell you exactly how fucking terrible most people consider the prospect of playing that way.
Wait, so Leadership has a place in the game because it's not as bad as Diplomacy? Does anyone anywhere ever believe that Diplomacy as written actually has a place in D&D?
I mean look, there is Dungeons and Dragons, and there is Logistics and Dragons. And while people can play either of those, it should not be fucking mandatory to have to play the second one. And Leadership and Diplomacy make it actually fucking impossible to not play Logistics and Dragons without willfully taking a huge fucking nerf to your character.
The fact that despite that the vast majority of all games involve all of the players separately choosing to cooperate instead of defect in the Prisoner's Dilemma of Leadership/Diplomacy should tell you exactly how fucking terrible most people consider the prospect of playing that way.
Well, except that part where then the entire game becomes a shitty pile of shit and you have basically cut everyone's fun in half as you take twice as long to resolve everything ever and have to micromanage twice as much shit in return for... fucking nothing at all gained.DrPraetor wrote:Anyway, Leadership is a feat tax, that's the problem. Just give everyone Leadership without charging for it. Everyone has a Cohort, everyone is expected to have a Cohort, the problem is solved.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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John Magnum
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Equip them with 100 wands of fireball. Even magic missile would be nasty if the target doesn't have countermeasures.sabs wrote: And I'm not sure when you're 20th level if 100 l1 wizards is all that useful.
Heh, you could put them all in heavy armor and strap their wand to a mace or something. Poor bastards thinking they were about to fight a bunch of soldier mooks wouldn't know what hit em.
Re: Leadership has no place in D&D
Lord Mistborn wrote:Leadership the feat on pg 106 of the DMG is broken, not only broken but the most broken thing ever printed by Wizards of the Coast excepting only the most generous reading of the Palanar Binding Line and Gate.
Greenbound Summoning is far more broken at the levels where the game is mostly fair (1-10 or so?). I'd easily give up a cohort to have all my SNA animals be able to cast Wall of Thorns 1/day, and that's not even considering the insanely huge pile of combat bonuses and other SLAs they get with the template.DrPraetor wrote:As most games are generally structured, Leadership is strictly superior to all other feat options; except possibly Natural Spell (if you've been living as a hideously-deformed freak with junk stats until hitting 6th level).
But that feat was probably supposed to be a metamagic feat with a +2 or +3 spell level cost, not a feat that gives you Wall of Thorns spontaneously in every spell slot you have even at level 1.
Leadership may be the most intentionally-broken feat available, but it's not the most broken of all.
Last edited by Whatever on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.