D&DNext: Playtest Review

[tussock]

Long-ass combats are partly a result of the difficulty settings (all hard, all day), partly the padded sumo, partly the endless actions per player, partly the mini-rounds each action can become with cascading interrupts, and partly an illusion because all your (4e) best stuff is gone and you're grinding on the monsters with lame at-will powers.

Having monsters with nothing but combat abilities and a broken non-combat challenge system means the game doesn't support you when you try and avoid combat. Having almost all XP derived from killing monsters is what forces combat though.

Thinking with the rules IS bad. Stopping the game to argue an unclear rule is worse. Tricky.

Epic tier is mostly a problem of too many actions and conditions, isn't it? They actually wanted that number of combat rounds and solos that just kept on keeping on, so the math did what they intended it to do, give or take. They just thought it felt "Epic", rather than "disempowering", because none of them really used the rules as written.

Monsters need to be mildly threatening to make it easier for the DM. Really though, they need a system where the DM can wear the PCs down over more than one battle without constantly risking a TPK, which means some sort of limited healing and peak offence recovery limits.

Clerics really are healbots for most 4e groups, by my own reading. They can be quite good at it if they give up on being able to do anything else.

The game will rely on MTP limits for the forseeable future if it has any creative allowance in the rules at all, may as well include that truth in the rulebooks.


Mike's kinda got it right. His problem is he's not allowed to call 4e bad, because doing that with 3e cost them a lot of customers. Even though 4e is objectively bad.

[Ravengm]

New playtest packet has arrived.

http://dndplaytest.wizards.com/

Apparently attack bonuses scale with level now.

So much for bounded accuracy.

Edit: Fixed tags

[CapnTthePirateG]

New playtest packet!

Humans are god. They get +2 to 1 stat and +1 to all the rest...why play anything else?

Looks like they cut back on the padded sumo. That's very good.

There is a necromancer. That is good. It gets all of one skeleton and an "eat dead dudes to force disadvantages on saves" ability. It's also using that godawful "burn your action to make it attack" crap.

A lot of the Save-or-sucks have hit point maximums that will turn them into straight-up-save or sucks. Like the 50 hp clause of hold person won't trigger on anything in the bestiary that's not a troll and even then it immobilizes. But it looks like fireball can actually kill shit too.

Monsters are build 4e style. I don't like it because it brings back "I'm a gnome, and I can't learn what that gnome can do."

Bounded accuracy has been thrown out the window - everyone gets a magic BAB.

Is it just me, or are many of the fighter moves knocking people down?

More later.

[Previn]

New playtest packet has arrived.

http://dndplaytest.wizards.com/

Apparently attack bonuses scale with level now.

So much for bounded accuracy.

Edit: Fixed tags

Or https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2xgny7 ... edit?pli=1

If you want to skip the WotC site (for now).

[...You Lost Me]

Humans are god. They get +2 to 1 stat and +1 to all the rest...why play anything else?

I'm not sure how much a +1 to every stat is helpful, since it looks like you only need 2-3 stats (Con, Dex, and your attack stat). High elves get ray of frost at will for some hard kiting.

But those two races definitely seem like the strongest there is.

There is a necromancer. That is good. It gets all of one skeleton and an "eat dead dudes to force disadvantages on saves" ability. It's also using that godawful "burn your action to make it attack" crap.

Yeah...

The saves thing is nice, though. It ensures you can get more dangerous as you drop enemies. Probably would synergize well with a dude with cleave.

Bounded accuracy has been thrown out the window - everyone gets a magic BAB.

That would just be the casters

Also, fighters look like they're actually useful with their expertise die refreshing every round. Rogues look like they'll be dealing plenty of damage, as long as they use Knack. I haven't looked at the hiding rules yet, so maybe they don't even need it.

[CapnTthePirateG]

You Lost Me, remember all your stats are defenses. Getting caught in a web or suggested to suicide (yes, it can do that now) are kinda bad.

[...You Lost Me]

Oh right. That does give you a bit of opportunity. Still, these are just +1/2 bonuses to those saves, and even a +1 isn't very noticeable. Hmm hmm...

[Duke Flauros]

Wow... Mikey found a way to combine the worst attributes of 2nd 3rd and 4th edition. Go him.

[infected slut princess]

Is there a way to get the playtest packet without signing up officially for the playtest?

[Ravengm]

Is there a way to get the playtest packet without signing up officially for the playtest?

I'm sure there are places around to grab it (haven't looked at Previn's link myself), but you have the option to opt out at any given time so you don't receive things from them.

[infected slut princess]

Oh I didn't notice that link.

So.... Has anyone tried to make characters yet? I notice a section about character generation .

[CapnTthePirateG]

Not fully statted up:

You are a high elf or human wizard. You took those two necromancer feats, because one inflicts save penalties and the other gives you an expendable minion who can fight and maybe attack autonomously if you argue the definition of attack (does that mean one attack action, or fight until the target's dead? The thing acts independantly). You grab primarily necromancy and enchantment spells, with web and mirror image. For cantrips, you grab magic missile, ray of frost, detect magic, and ghost sound. Grab whatever background you want, who gives a shit.

Your combat style consists of immobilizing people with either cause fear, web, grease (note these three work on any monster regardless of hit points), hold person (immobilizes humanoid for 1 minute regardless of HP, doesn't paralyze unless under 50 hp, which most playtest humanoids are), and suggestion (which allows you to order anything under 50 hp to kill itself. Really. Read the spell). Now, your skeleton can carry simple weapons so you give it some darts. Darts are simple ranged weapons. So while you have team monster tied up, you throw magic missiles and your skeleton bro throws darts. You probably want some laser clerics and maybe an archer fighter to help you out. You can also just blast stuff because hit points are really, really low - unless you're fighting solos. Then break out the grease and the skele-darts.


What do you guys think?

[OgreBattle]

I like the Fighter mechanic more than I thought I would, heh. It's similar to something I've thought about before.

It should just be a general use of Swift/Minor Actions that it's tied to (oh wait, they removed that for 'ease of play'...)
I can imagine a Rogue tumbling. I could see a Paladin Protecting, it'll be weird if these other classes do the same thing through another method because 'these dice are for fighters only'

I don't like the idea of making it a die roll though, should just be flat modifiers. It should have the ease of tapping a Magic Card.

[Duke Flauros]

It seems they still can't check continuity; the mace deals 1d8 damage in the cleric pregen and 1d6 in the equipment table

Not fully statted up:
You are a high elf or human wizard. You took those two necromancer feats, because one inflicts save penalties and the other gives you an expendable minion who can fight and maybe attack autonomously if you argue the definition of attack (does that mean one attack action, or fight until the target's dead? The thing acts independantly). You grab primarily necromancy and enchantment spells, with web and mirror image. For cantrips, you grab magic missile, ray of frost, detect magic, and ghost sound. Grab whatever background you want, who gives a shit.

Trade out the level one feat for toughness, which gives you another hit die.

Your combat style consists of immobilizing people with either cause fear, web, grease (note these three work on any monster regardless of hit points), hold person (immobilizes humanoid for 1 minute regardless of HP, doesn't paralyze unless under 50 hp, which most playtest humanoids are), and suggestion (which allows you to order anything under 50 hp to kill itself. Really. Read the spell). Now, your skeleton can carry simple weapons so you give it some darts. Darts are simple ranged weapons. So while you have team monster tied up, you throw magic missiles and your skeleton bro throws darts. You probably want some laser clerics and maybe an archer fighter to help you out. You can also just blast stuff because hit points are really, really low - unless you're fighting solos. Then break out the grease and the skele-darts.


What do you guys think?

Give him armor and a shield. Give him handaxes to throw, since these rely on his STR rather than DEX.

[OgreBattle]

Human Fighter
Level H.Dice Attack ExDice Class Features
1 1d10 +3 1d6 Combat Superiority, Fighting Style
str 13 +1
dex 18 +4
con 15 +2
int 11
wis 14 +1
cha 9 -1


Longbow
+7 to hit, 1d8+4 damage


Rapid Shot
You can loose two shots in rapid succession,
sacrificing precision for speed.
Benefit: As an action, you can make two ranged
attacks with a weapon with which you have
proficiency. All the damage of each of these attacks
is halved.


Snap Shot
You can fire off a quick shot, even when
distracted by other things.
Benefit: When you take an action other than
making a melee or a ranged attack, you can spend
a single expertise die to make a ranged attack
during that action against a creature that you can
see. If you hit, instead of rolling damage normally,
you roll the expertise die and use its result for
your damage

[CapnTthePirateG]

It seems they still can't check continuity; the mace deals 1d8 damage in the cleric pregen and 1d6 in the equipment table

Not fully statted up:
You are a high elf or human wizard. You took those two necromancer feats, because one inflicts save penalties and the other gives you an expendable minion who can fight and maybe attack autonomously if you argue the definition of attack (does that mean one attack action, or fight until the target's dead? The thing acts independantly). You grab primarily necromancy and enchantment spells, with web and mirror image. For cantrips, you grab magic missile, ray of frost, detect magic, and ghost sound. Grab whatever background you want, who gives a shit.

Trade out the level one feat for toughness, which gives you another hit die.

Your combat style consists of immobilizing people with either cause fear, web, grease (note these three work on any monster regardless of hit points), hold person (immobilizes humanoid for 1 minute regardless of HP, doesn't paralyze unless under 50 hp, which most playtest humanoids are), and suggestion (which allows you to order anything under 50 hp to kill itself. Really. Read the spell). Now, your skeleton can carry simple weapons so you give it some darts. Darts are simple ranged weapons. So while you have team monster tied up, you throw magic missiles and your skeleton bro throws darts. You probably want some laser clerics and maybe an archer fighter to help you out. You can also just blast stuff because hit points are really, really low - unless you're fighting solos. Then break out the grease and the skele-darts.


What do you guys think?

Give him armor and a shield. Give him handaxes to throw, since these rely on his STR rather than DEX.

Good catch. Not sure I'll be using toughness as the aura of souls drops saves, but we'll see.

[tussock]

Fighter1a: my skill with a bow went from +4/1d8+5 to +4/1d8.
Fighter1b: my skill with a blade went form +6/2d6+7 to +6/1d10+3.

1d10+3? If I use my action to give the Rogue advantage he gets +2d6 damage and is more likely to hit! I suddenly feel so useful. Of course, the Rogue has 6 hit points, so I'll also need to spend my bonus die on saving his life. Yay?

Also, the two fighters there are now two different characters, because being good at more than one thing is a crime. They still haven't got finesse weapons right on the Fighter sheet either, are we supposed to test the rules they're not using for them again?

Oh and the Orcs went from 1d8+1 to 1d12+2 damage, while my hit points went from 20 down to 14. So that's nice. From me killing them in one hit and them killing me in 5, to 2 each. If you make the Orc take disadvantage he gets +5 damage for free and almost always gets me in one hit.

Kobolds maybe? 1d4-2 becomes 1d4+1 for ranged damage. No.

"Wait," you say, "you get bonus damage!" Yes, 1d6, once per round. That almost makes up for Orcs being better than me now. Almost. "Ah," you say, "but you can lower that damage!" Yes, by that same 1d6 if I save it up, which will give the other classes time to kill them while I go cry in a corner.

Remember how I used to have action points and kill monsters? Yeh. Me too.



Quite like the Armour Piercing mechanic on Ogres. Oh, none of it for the PCs of course, maybe in a splatbook.

Armour: WTF? OK, there's a choice for a small Dex bonus between AC and speed, I guess that's something.

Sleep spell works again, but only against 1 Orc. Fireball is almost as good as Sleep was until 4e. It's really hard to tell who's the worst class, but I think if we all just assist the halfling he can maybe kill a couple Orcs before we all die. Here was me thinking BECMI was tough at low level. Could be fun, might have to get a game together.

[Ravengm]

Sleep spell works again, but only against 1 Orc.

And maybe not even then. On average you'll get one Orc, but you're rolling 3d8 to determine the maximum hit points to affect. You're essentially just doing 3d8 damage, since sleep takes them out of the fight anyway.

The expertise die on the fighter is kinda cool, but they seem to like increasing the size of it instead of handing out more. You get a second die at level 5, whereas the Rogue keeps bumping Sneak Attack at an extra d6 per level (which is also usable once per round).

They also made a solid tanking mechanic with the Hold the Line feat. The only restriction is that you can only stop movement of your-sized or smaller creatures, which is a pretty big drawback, but at least they tried with some moderate success.

Also, did anyone notice that Clerics cast differently than Wizards? They're like a Cleric-Sorcerer hybrid. They prepare a number of unique spells equal to the total number of casts for each level they have, and use a spell slot of the same level (or higher) as the prepared spell they want to cast. So, if you have 3 1st-level spells per day and 1 2nd-level spell per day, you can prep 3 different 1st-levels and 1 2nd-level, and cast them as if that was your sorcerer spells known that day.

[rapa-nui]

you're rolling 3d8 to determine the maximum hit points to affect

I'm sure the numbers are probably horrible, but it's worth pointing out this is a decent mechanic to use in general for 'save or die' type effects. This way, a Wizard can start a fight using fireballs or whatever, and end it with a sleep spell (I'm assuming it keys off current HP? If not, forget what i just posted.)

[MGuy]

Low level DnD has never been much of an issue for me. All the concentration on low levels in these previews seem like its going to just cause another "fuck up at higher levels" situation except worse because they did a bad job at least the last few times with this shit.

[Ravengm]

you're rolling 3d8 to determine the maximum hit points to affect

I'm sure the numbers are probably horrible, but it's worth pointing out this is a decent mechanic to use in general for 'save or die' type effects. This way, a Wizard can start a fight using fireballs or whatever, and end it with a sleep spell (I'm assuming it keys off current HP? If not, forget what i just posted.)

It's keyed off of current hit points. I agree that the mechanic is a useful way to do it, but you can (maybe) put one Orc to sleep off of those numbers, or 2-3 Fire Beetles or something, which go down in one hit anyway.

[virgil]

All of the stuff that's limited by maximum hit points seems like a different way of saying "less than 3HD, give or take".

[CapnTthePirateG]

Rereading the skill system. It is still entirely "argue plausibility with your DM," and explicitly encourages the DM to make up DCs after the roll.

Final verdict: a few interesting things. Not enough to justify a switch.

[hogarth]

Low level DnD has never been much of an issue for me. All the concentration on low levels in these previews seem like its going to just cause another "fuck up at higher levels" situation except worse because they did a bad job at least the last few times with this shit.

It's the same as every edition of D&D (Pathfinder, etc.) -- 80% of the effort goes into working on the lower 20% and 20% of the effort goes into the higher 80%.

[OgreBattle]

Low level DnD has never been much of an issue for me. All the concentration on low levels in these previews seem like its going to just cause another "fuck up at higher levels" situation except worse because they did a bad job at least the last few times with this shit.

It's the same as every edition of D&D (Pathfinder, etc.) -- 80% of the effort goes into working on the lower 20% and 20% of the effort goes into the higher 80%.

That makes me wonder if it'd be plausible to design from the very top, then work your way down.

Like figure out "Here is a level 20 Fighter, Thief, and Wizard. They all adventure together in amazing adventures"
then slice that into 20 segments.