Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[erik]

So Pathfinder is continuing the glorious tradition of 3.x being caster edition. They have added a new ring that lets you persist a personal range spell. Basically persistent spell from 3.5, except it only costs gold, not even any feats.

You can read a description here:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz6b98?Infini ... e-Infinite

This band of braided copper wires throbs ever so slightly in harmony with its wearer’s heartbeat. Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal, that spell remains in effect for 24 hours or until the wearer casts another spell with a range of personal (whichever comes first). Spells that usually only affect one specific action (such as making a particular attack) are expended after that action. This does not reduce the duration of spells that normally last longer than 24 hours. Casting a new spell does not eliminate a previous spell if its normal duration is such that it would still be in effect. However, attempts to dispel or otherwise eliminate a spell kept active by the ring work normally and, if successful, remove the spell from the ring, causing the wearer to lose all benefits from that spell.

My favorite from that thread...

Take the spell Light Lance. You can hold the lance aloft as a beacon of light visible at a range of 90 ft. For every round you hold it aloft the range the lance becomes visible an extra 2 miles. If you hold the lance aloft for the entire 24 hour period of 14400 rounds it will be visible from a distance of 28798 miles away. Stand at a high enough point and you can eliminate night for the entire planet.

Is the Pathfinder setting on a plane rather than a globe? That'd be kind of interesting actually.

[MGuy]

On the Lavos vs Allip issue, what stops the Allip from just floating into Lavos' body while incorporeal and just fondling whichever organ it can reach? I mean, good luck punching through yourself to hit the magic rape ghost touching your heart.

Thank you for reading my mind and posting the question. Hope you didn't hurt yourself while you were digging around in there.

[OgreBattle]

On the Lavos vs Allip issue, what stops the Allip from just floating into Lavos' body while incorporeal and just fondling whichever organ it can reach? I mean, good luck punching through yourself to hit the magic rape ghost touching your heart.

The Allip floats inside of Lavos and...

Gets punched by Lavos because his organs also have fists.



and if you make it past that Lavos


make a knowledge check.

[rasmuswagner]

On the Lavos vs Allip issue, what stops the Allip from just floating into Lavos' body while incorporeal and just fondling whichever organ it can reach? I mean, good luck punching through yourself to hit the magic rape ghost touching your heart.

D&D creatures don't have internal organs until they're dead.

[Chamomile]

I looked up Lavos and I don't think it has any way of attacking an Allip who just floats around its back petting it like it's a baby goat anyway. For that matter, if you can get onto that thing, I don't think it has any way of stopping you from spamming save-or-dies until it eventually rolls a 1 on its save.

[Zaranthan]

Lavos doesn't have a blind spot.

[ishy]

So what game is Lavos from?

[schpeelah]

Chrono Trigger.

[Duke Flauros]

I looked up Lavos and I don't think it has any way of attacking an Allip who just floats around its back petting it like it's a baby goat anyway. For that matter, if you can get onto that thing, I don't think it has any way of stopping you from spamming save-or-dies until it eventually rolls a 1 on its save.

Dnd isn't Chrono Trigger though. First off, no one in Chrono Trigger has prismatic wall or solid fog; even the triple techs (twister, omegaflare, delta force) usually didn't end bosses in one go. Second, Lavos has godlike magical powers, and the Tarrasque doesn't. Third, in Chrono Trigger, you are restricted to fighting in two dimensions; in DND, you aren't restricted to a mere three.

[CapnTthePirateG]

So Pathfinder is continuing the glorious tradition of 3.x being caster edition. They have added a new ring that lets you persist a personal range spell. Basically persistent spell from 3.5, except it only costs gold, not even any feats.

You can read a description here:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz6b98?Infini ... e-Infinite

This band of braided copper wires throbs ever so slightly in harmony with its wearer’s heartbeat. Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal, that spell remains in effect for 24 hours or until the wearer casts another spell with a range of personal (whichever comes first). Spells that usually only affect one specific action (such as making a particular attack) are expended after that action. This does not reduce the duration of spells that normally last longer than 24 hours. Casting a new spell does not eliminate a previous spell if its normal duration is such that it would still be in effect. However, attempts to dispel or otherwise eliminate a spell kept active by the ring work normally and, if successful, remove the spell from the ring, causing the wearer to lose all benefits from that spell.

My favorite from that thread...

Take the spell Light Lance. You can hold the lance aloft as a beacon of light visible at a range of 90 ft. For every round you hold it aloft the range the lance becomes visible an extra 2 miles. If you hold the lance aloft for the entire 24 hour period of 14400 rounds it will be visible from a distance of 28798 miles away. Stand at a high enough point and you can eliminate night for the entire planet.

Is the Pathfinder setting on a plane rather than a globe? That'd be kind of interesting actually.

Ahahaha

I see hands of the magi being used if they still let you wear a third ring. And Forge Ring is being taken by every caster ever.

Do they still have that stupid slotless item crap?

[hogarth]

My favorite from that thread...

Take the spell Light Lance. You can hold the lance aloft as a beacon of light visible at a range of 90 ft. For every round you hold it aloft the range the lance becomes visible an extra 2 miles. If you hold the lance aloft for the entire 24 hour period of 14400 rounds it will be visible from a distance of 28798 miles away. Stand at a high enough point and you can eliminate night for the entire planet.

Is the Pathfinder setting on a plane rather than a globe? That'd be kind of interesting actually.

My favourite from the thread was the guy who was saying "Imagine if you could have a ring that gave you Freedom of Movement all day for 56,000 gp!!!" without realising that there's a cheaper ring that does the same thing.

[Juton]

Yeah, the people on the Paizo boards don't seem to have the system master that 339 did. For a while it was thought that it would work with Timestop, which would be broken if true.

I think the most interesting thing ultimately will be the mental gymnastics the fanbois go through to try and show that fighters get level appropriate options.

[John Magnum]

Why doesn't it work with Time Stop? Objective/subjective time shenanigans, or what?

[Winnah]

The argument I have seen against a persisted version of Time Stop, is that you would recieve 1d4+1 rounds of action in a 24 hour period, but I can't figure out how people arrived at that interpretation.

I mean, 24 hours of uninterrupted actions is a ridiculously powerful exploit. That does not mean I would bullshit a player in order to prevent it from happening. I would prefer to invoke DM fiat to simply say "No" than use fiat to fuck someone over.

Even so, a spellcaster with Alter Memory, Dominate, Suggestion and a ring of Continuation loaded with Time Stop would make for a pretty effective puppet master.

[OgreBattle]

I think the most interesting thing ultimately will be the mental gymnastics the fanbois go through to try and show that fighters get level appropriate options.

Weapon +X


isn't there some kind of Fighter vs Wizard showdown going on where someone from here is dueling a "I'm in the military IRL, a lvl10 fighter will always beat a lvl10 wizard!" guy?

[Koumei]

Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

They take the "apparent time" to mean "not a real duration, doesn't work, nya nya" and, IIRC, the Sage decided to rule that way as well.

[John Magnum]

Well, the text doesn't say anything about the duration except that it doesn't reduce it if the duration is over 24 hours to begin with. The only requirements are that the spell have a Range of Personal (Are there any spells with a Range of Personal but a Duration of Instantaneous or Permanent?) and that the spell not typically last for only a single, specific action. Time Stop has a Range of Personal, and it definitely doesn't only affect a single action.

It wouldn't be awful to errata in some minimum duration requirement or something, but that would be an actual rules change, not an FAQ clarification.

---

Additionally, as far as I can tell, Modify Memory, Suggestion, and Dominate don't actually do shit during Time Stop. How do you work around

While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

since all three of those spells still require a target?

[Leress]

(Are there any spells with a Range of Personal but a Duration of Instantaneous or Permanent?)

Know Direction

[Juton]

I could have sworn that in PF timestop was instantaneous with 1d4+1 rounds being in the spell description. Timestop has a duration of: "1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text". As written, there is nothing stopping the ring from working with it, that I can see.

I am kind of looking forward to seeing the new content posted on their SRD, I'm sure a lot more caster goodies are included. I am actually a fan of martial types, if I was also a fan of Paizo I'd be pretty peeved about this type of crap.

[ScottS]

Take the spell Light Lance. You can hold the lance aloft as a beacon of light visible at a range of 90 ft. For every round you hold it aloft the range the lance becomes visible an extra 2 miles. If you hold the lance aloft for the entire 24 hour period of 14400 rounds it will be visible from a distance of 28798 miles away. Stand at a high enough point and you can eliminate night for the entire planet.

Is the Pathfinder setting on a plane rather than a globe? That'd be kind of interesting actually.

[Winnah]

Additionally, as far as I can tell, Modify Memory, Suggestion, and Dominate don't actually do shit during Time Stop. How do you work around

While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

since all three of those spells still require a target?

I don't know how you would go about it in PF, but you can give targeted spells an area trigger a few different ways (Glyphs, Earthbound Spell). The spell then takes effect one the Time Stop ends.

[Duke Flauros]

Additionally, as far as I can tell, Modify Memory, Suggestion, and Dominate don't actually do shit during Time Stop. How do you work around

While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

since all three of those spells still require a target?

I don't know how you would go about it in PF, but you can give targeted spells an area trigger a few different ways (Glyphs, Earthbound Spell). The spell then takes effect one the Time Stop ends.

Or just use spells that affect you and last longer than 8 hours. Rest, re-prepare spells, and then use area spells without a direct target when the timestop is about to wear off. Remember, it says that creatures cannot be the target of your effects, but it says nothing about indirect damage, and it specifically states that unattended objects can be affected.

"This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop."

[virgil]

Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

They take the "apparent time" to mean "not a real duration, doesn't work, nya nya" and, IIRC, the Sage decided to rule that way as well.

Which is particularly frustrating. I'm certain that before this item existed, not a one would see a problem with applying the Extend Spell to time stop; it's only when a more broken application rears its head that they decide to retcon the rules, saying it's always worked that way. And they keep doing this malarkey too. Look at interplanetary teleport, look at ghost touch arrows, look at monk weapons for Pete's sake.

I'm fairly certain they do this, rather than just freakin' changing the rules outright, so they can feel superior over all of those 'munchkins'. It's not a flaw in the rules, they're just twisting the wording to cheat and break the game; "the rules don't say you stop moving when you're dead!"

[Korwin]

I'm certain that before this item existed, not a one would see a problem with applying the Extend Spell to time stop;

Nitpicking, thats a (sage) ruling from (waaay) before the item, since there are ways to persistent lvl. 9 spell in D&D 3.5.

[John Magnum]

@Duke - For self-buffs, you would create a Glyph of Whatever, then step onto it? Because just directly using spells that affect you would end Time Stop.