Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Username17]

Show me how it's done. Because I obviously svck at this and haven't been able to do one fvcking thing right at anything I've done or created on this board in years; possibly ever.

The way you pass a Same Game Test as a spellcaster is to go into those encounters with spells that will let you win those encounters. That means you need shit to keep you alive in addition to spells that blow up the opposition. So as a Wizard you get stuff like flight, wall of force, wall of stone, and acid fog to avoid getting hit by enemies in addition to things that let you sucker punch enemies to death (or at least defeat) with every saving throw type and no-save shenanigans like cloud kill.

Yes, as a Wizard you can do completely abusive crap like charm a bunch of soldiers and then scry out the enemies and send your army in to go fight them for you (thereby winning - or at least not losing - every encounter without even taking off your footy pajamas), but that is "bullshit". The point of the Same Game Test is not whether you can avoid having the encounter in the first place, but whether you win a good chunk of them assuming those encounters actually happen.

The Summoner actually has some decent spells to cast. They have an abysmally terrible casting system. Those points are not in dispute, at least I don't think they are. Although I must point out that while you get stuff like Glitterdust and Black Tentacles - those specific spells have been really severely nerfed in Pathfinder. Black Tentacles, for example, is basically useless in Pathfinder - a 15th level caster's Tentacles will successfully grab a Dire Bear 75% of the time, and then that Dire Bear needs to roll a fucking eleven to escape each round. And that's against a creature eight levels lower, if you cast it on a real 15th level monster you literally roll a d20 and add 20 and fail if your total is less than forty two.

The Summoner has some battlefield control that does work in Pathfinder: obsidian flow is pretty brutal in its own weird way (a Strength Check with a DC equal to the save DC can be a pretty good "go fuck yourself" at high levels), and all of the things that summon swarms are just as weapon-immune when used by a Summoner as they are when used by a class that gets them several levels earlier.

But really, if opponents can fly or teleport (or are a demon and can do both), I really don't see what a Summoner could have on their list that would keep enemies from just walking over and eviscerating them. I can't be fucked to go through their "evolution pool" to figure out whether they can get their Eidolon to meat shield for them in some kind of effective way - but if they can't, the class is basically toast in a high level environment. Tar Pool is a pretty impressive ground-based obstacle, but ground based obstacles don't really mean all that much at 15th level.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

And really, for all that the Eidolon gets fapped to, I'm not seeing any real advantage over, say, a cleric grabbing a high-strength animal companion (from the animal or scalykind domain), plopping down 6000 gp to craft a Greater Hat of Disguise, the Boon Companion feat, and after using the animal companion's first stat bonus to put into intelligence spending every feat from level 5 onwards into... oh... the archery feat line. You'll need to plop down some more money for a composite bow, too. And optionally some inexpensive armor, too.

So by level 9, your animal companion looks something like this:
Ape (Transformed into some large humanoid)
STR: 24 DEX: 18
BAB: +6
Feats:
1: Armor Proficiency: Light
3: Dodge
5: Point Blank Shot
7: Rapid Shot
9: Manyshot
Equipment: Greater Hat of Disguise, Chain Shirt, Large Composite Longbow, Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone (Composite Longbow)
Note: His cleric companion treats the ape to a PBoK'd Magic Vestment and GMW every day.
AC: 24 (10 + 4 Armor + 3 MV + 4 Dex + 3 Nat Armor)
Attack Bonus: +12/+12/+12/+7 (+6 BAB, +4 Dex, +3 Enh, +1 PBS, -2 rapid shot)
Damage: 2d6+11, +7 strength +3 enh +1 PBS

[Dean]

I can't be fucked to go through their "evolution pool" to figure out whether they can get their Eidolon to meat shield for them in some kind of effective way - but if they can't, the class is basically toast in a high level environment.

That's a fair concern. There are a number of options I found which I'll list and you may choose which ones you find valid and/or interesting.

*As a 14th level feature they share an HP pool with their Summon if they choose to. So they basically add all of the Eidolon's HP on top of theirs, which isn't chump change
*They have all the defensive spells they need to have a very pimp AC and Stoneskin DR rockin all the time to fuck with those multiattackers.
*As a 12th level feature Summoners add +4 to their AC and every save, which really helps on the save front to make sure you can roll confidently on anything that gives you the ability to
*Rings of Friendship are pretty hot for a class that can summon minions pretty much endlessly. Half damage to you and half to a spell of yours? Yes please.
*If you ride your Eidolon there are a lot of good feats that allow your Eidolon to block blows to you and for your to do the same to it. I find it generally increases survivability all around and was how I played my Summoner.
*While in no way related directly to the Summoner class, the Pathfinder Ultimate Magic book has an awesome thing where you can make an armor out of a construct you buy. You wear the construct and any attacks sent at you take off the constructs hp first. It's pretty amazing. Though once again anyone can do this, it's just a good way of adding some extra HP onto someone. The Summoner I played did ALL of these things and created an order of damage operations where you needed to kill his Armor>Friendship-Summon>Eidolon>Him. It made HP damage a very difficult track to take.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The Summoner can do all but one of the Sorcerer's summon tricks by level 11. If you want to get the dick out your mouth and make a case, use that Drow Sorc that got posted a while back. Or the Wizard's True Name trick on a Conjuration spec Wizard (for the minute per level summons).

'kay.

True Neutral Human Crossblooded Razmiran Sorcerer 7 / Hell Knight Signifier 1 (Paths of Prestige) / Sorcerer 4, Abyssal and Arcane Bloodlines
Arcane Bond: Familiar
Feats:
1H: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
1: Light Armor Proficiency
3: Medium Armor Proficiency
5: Arcane Armor Training
7B: Augment Summoning
7: Supreme Summoning
9: Sacred Summons
11: Improved Familiar (Cythnigoth, CE)

Magical Items: Ring of Minor Spell-Storing, Robe of Arcane Heritage, Rod of Quickening (Pathfinder really buffed this rod for sorcerers). Pearls of Power to your pleasure. A couple of Summon Nature's Ally scrolls, too.

The Hellknight Signifier gives the Aura class feature. Specifically, for lawful. This is just used to qualify for the feat.

So anywho, summoning.

When you get downtime, you cast an Imbue With Aura spell into the Cythnigoth's ring of minor spellstoring. When you get into combat, the Cythnigoth casts Imbue With Aura on you, which will give you a Chaotic and Evil Aura for the purpose of summoning.

At level 12, you'll have 4 castings of a 6th level spell thanks to your level 1 arcana feature.

So every combat, you open up with a Summon Monster VI, both regular cast and quickened. In Pathfinder, spells with a casting time of one full round can be quickened and sorcerers can quicken spells without penalties. Not that it's a huge deal, since you have Metamagic Adept, but whatevs.

Anyway, enjoy your dumping six succubi onto the field at once. Or whatever evil outsiders that come to mind.

You haven't made a definitive case; virgil inadvertently made your case for you by sucking so hard. If it weren't for that, this whole conversation would just be another one of your weird personal quirks/fetishes getting rubbed the wrong way. It still pretty much is, but you may be right for once.

Look, insult me all you want, but seriously? What kind of weaselly crap is that, passing the buck to virgil?

At least virgil made an honest attempt to defend his position, dude. If you're going to sit back and whine that people on your side are strawmanning your position by not arguing for it well enough, why doesn't your punk ass step up to the plate? Because as much homoerotic invective as you're flinging about, you're the one who's really looking like a sniveling, cocksucking bitch.

You got a case to make, post a build. If you're unable to articulate the imaginary bon mots and sicknasties in your peabrain, then shut the fuck up.

What's the Veiled Illusionist got that makes it good for blasting? Being able to poach spells from other lists is always nice.

You're a cleric that gets to plunder wizard illusion spells without losing caster levels or increasing the level. What more could you possibly ask for?

[MfA]

Attack Bonus: +12/+12/+12/+7 (+6 BAB, +4 Dex, +3 Enh, +1 PBS, -2 rapid shot)

The difference is that the Eidolon could be attacking with 3 bows among all kinds of other shenanigans. Generally you'll stick to a plain natural weapon pouncer because it's harder for your DM to accuse you of being a munchkin ... and you'll exceed the damage of that ape by a factor 2 or more.

Your Ape is not a rocket launcher, it can not single turn level appropriate threats ... the Eidolon can. Also it's less dependent on level range, a druid with a big cat and animal growth can get close (but not nearly equal) to an Eidolon, but only for a couple of levels.

[ishy]

And really, for all that the Eidolon gets fapped to, I'm not seeing any real advantage over, say, a cleric grabbing a high-strength animal companion (...) and after using the animal companion's first stat bonus to put into intelligence spending every feat from level 5 onwards into... oh... the archery feat line. You'll need to plop down some more money for a composite bow, too.

The problem with equipping an animal companion with manufactured weapons is that it requires your DM to allow it. While the Eidolon has it build in.

To quote the Pathfinder FAQ:

Another aspect of intelligent animals is tool use. There are a number of feats that convey an understanding and the proper use of weapons and armor. Generally speaking, these feats are off-limits to animals, but when their intelligence reaches 3, the rules state that they can use any feat that they are physically capable of using. Some people take this to mean that they can equip their animal companion in chainmail and arm him with a greatsword given the correct feats. While you could interpret the rules in this way, the "capable of use" clause is very important. Most weapons require thumbs to use properly, and even then, few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that. In the end, the GM should feel free to restrict such choices if he feels that they take away from the feel of his campaign. The rules themselves are left a little vague to give the GM the latitude to make the call that's right for his campaign.

The Handle Animal skill functions similarly no matter how intelligent an animal becomes. A character must still make Handle Animal checks to train his animal and get him to perform the appropriate tasks. A GM should, however, make exceptions in the case of how such an intelligent animal might react in absence of instructions. It might not know to unlock a door to escape a burning building—as that's a fact that's learned over time and experience—but a smart animal might have a better chance of finding a way out.

True Neutral Human Crossblooded Razmiran Sorcerer 7 / Hell Knight Signifier 1 (Paths of Prestige) / Sorcerer 4, Abyssal and Arcane Bloodlines

Magical Items: (...)Pearls of Power to your pleasure.

I don't know what the Hellknight Signifer does, but a Sorcerer can't use pearl of powers.

[Juton]

Can someone explain why Virgil using Magic Jar is bullshit but Lago dipping prestige classes to prove how good a Sorcerer summoner is is acceptable?

EDIT: And an Ape is transformed into a large humanoid how exactly? Even if that works it would be a companion, not an animal companion. Most damning of all I think a Zen Archer monk can post those type of numbers, meaning it's not that impressive.

Also quicken works with spells that take a full round to cast, not 1 round.

[ishy]

Quicken is weird in pathfinder, prepared casters can use it with 1 round spells.
Edit: Spontaneous casters might. For prepared 1 round is specifically called out, for spontaneous casters it isn't, but 1 round action is a full round action according to the magic rules.
Edit 2: FAQ calls it out as being usable for spontaneous casters as well : link

And you can't combine it with Arcane Armor Training because activating that uses a swift action for some weird reason.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The difference is that the Eidolon could be attacking with 3 bows among all kinds of other shenanigans. Generally you'll stick to a plain natural weapon pouncer because it's harder for your DM to accuse you of being a munchkin ... and you'll exceed the damage of that ape by a factor 2 or more.

Your Ape is not a rocket launcher, it can not single turn level appropriate threats ... the Eidolon can. Also it's less dependent on level range, a druid with a big cat and animal growth can get close (but not nearly equal) to an Eidolon, but only for a couple of levels.

Most damning of all I think a Zen Archer monk can post those type of numbers, meaning it's not that impressive.

Foolish girl! I am a druid! I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class! -- Leeky Windstaff

That's not the metric you should be looking at. The metric you should be looking at is: how much of a class resource you are expending to get the effect you want. The cleric is expending a domain (though it's one of the better ones), a feat, a couple of spells, and about a fifth of his WBL. The summoner is using the entirety of their class features. It's okay for the cleric's feature to just be merely 'okay' because they're sitting on a pile of other abilities that they haven't used yet. The summoner however is using almost every resource they have.

Secondly, this is just my subjective opinion, but people are way too cavalier about sending animal companions or any kind of companions into melee. Sure, they can do more damage that way, but that's also a good recipe for your critter getting gangbanged. Unless you're putting together some kind of tank combo, I feel that you should avoid doing that as the game goes on. The summoner doesn't have to worry about that too much, but the other classes do.

Most weapons require thumbs to use properly, and even then, few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that.

God, I hate it when Pathfinder people attempt to do hazy Oberoni nerfs like that. Buncha parochial dumbass diarrhea dogs taking lava dumps on coherent rulesets. It's Spirited Charge and Infernal Healing crap all over again.

Good thing that apes are native tool users, huh? I mean, it's not like people haven't trained apes in the real world to use rocks and sticks. And even if your animal companion is doing some kind of bullshit DM roleplaying, there are... ways to bring it around.

And you can't combine it with Arcane Armor Training because activating that uses a swift action for some weird reason.

I don't know what the Hellknight Signifer does, but a Sorcerer can't use pearl of powers.

You don't use Arcane Armor Training. It was just there to get you into the PrC.

Also: whoops. Forgot about that pearl of power crap. Ah, well, spend it on something else. Just another way prepared casters are superior to spontaneous ones.

And an Ape is transformed into a large humanoid how exactly? Even if that works it would be a companion, not an animal companion.

With this stupidly overpowered (and Pathfinder-specific) item right here. Unless the FAQ is now saying that animals can't wear hats. Pathfinder alter self doesn't have any original type limitations like in 3.5E, so, you can stick this bastard on someone to change them into a large humanoid. That has hands.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Can someone explain why Virgil using Magic Jar is bullshit but Lago dipping prestige classes to prove how good a Sorcerer summoner is is acceptable?

Quoting Frank:

The way you pass a Same Game Test as a spellcaster is to go into those encounters with spells that will let you win those encounters. That means you need shit to keep you alive in addition to spells that blow up the opposition. So as a Wizard you get stuff like flight, wall of force, wall of stone, and acid fog to avoid getting hit by enemies in addition to things that let you sucker punch enemies to death (or at least defeat) with every saving throw type and no-save shenanigans like cloud kill.

Yes, as a Wizard you can do completely abusive crap like charm a bunch of soldiers and then scry out the enemies and send your army in to go fight them for you (thereby winning - or at least not losing - every encounter without even taking off your footy pajamas), but that is "bullshit". The point of the Same Game Test is not whether you can avoid having the encounter in the first place, but whether you win a good chunk of them assuming those encounters actually happen.

[MfA]

The cleric is expending a domain (though it's one of the better ones), a feat, a couple of spells, and about a fifth of his WBL. The summoner is using the entirety of their class features.

Sure ... they can only throw around worthless crap like charm Monster, black Tentacles, greater invisibility, wall of ice, marionette possession ... nothing even remotely level appropriate.

[ishy]

I don't think black tentacles is level appropriate any more after the pf nerfs.

@ Lago, yeah that stupid weaselly Oberoni nerf crap annoys me to no end too. I hate it even more that they keep on blaming older editions while refusing to actually say what the game rules should actually be.

What use is the scroll of Summon Nature's ally for your sorcerer? I assume you mean to use the Razarri (sp?) priest, feature with it, but then you spend a higher level spell slot for it, so you could just use a higher level Summon Monster instead. Is there any situation where that would be better?

And I'll try to find the equipping an AC rules, I did read them sometime ago, but I'm not sure if that was just PF Society.

[Username17]

The cleric is expending a domain (though it's one of the better ones), a feat, a couple of spells, and about a fifth of his WBL. The summoner is using the entirety of their class features.

Sure ... they can only throw around worthless crap like charm Monster, black Tentacles, greater invisibility, wall of ice, marionette possession ... nothing even remotely level appropriate.

Stop talking about Black Tentacles as if it was good!

This is Pathfailure, and Black Tentacles uses Grapple rules. Grappling in Pathfailure is fucking worthless. Black Tentacles is Shit in Pathfinder. If you're a 7th level character, Black Tentacles has a CMB of +12. If you shoot it at a Hill Giant or even a Succubus (two of the best known CR 7 monsters), it grabs them less than half the time. Once it grabs them, they take piddly bullshit damage and can escape on their turn by hitting a CMD of 22. Which means that more than half the time, even if it does work, it just costs them an attack action and inflicts 7 points of physical damage (which the Succubus does not even take because her DR equals the maximum damage result).

And I'm not even cherry picking here. If you actually cast that on a real "CMD Monster" rather than simply an iconic monster of the minimum level you could have that spell, It's physically incapable of doing anything at all.

Greater Invisibility is indeed a great spell, even in Pathfinder, but if you don't have the Stealth skill, it's basically worthless. It's a +20 bonus on Stealth checks and fighting while stealthing is a -20 penalty on Stealth checks. So everyone pretty much automatically gets to know what square you're in. After that, it's effectively the same as Displacement (a 50% miss chance). Not bad, but completely insufficient to make you win a fight that wasn't already super close. And remember it only lasts one round a fucking level. The Summoner does not have Stealth, meaning that he can't get any personal use out of Greater Invisibility (although I think he can pump up his Eidolon fairly impressively with it).

Marionette Possession requires a willing target, so I don't even know what the fuck you think you're going to accomplish with that shit. It's a story spell, where you can steal the body of someone you've knocked unconscious (unconscious targets are willing in D&D). Its utility for passing encounters is essentially nonexistent.

So pretty much we're back in Bard land. "He knows Charm Monster, which is a totally rad spell (even with its modest nerf in Pathfinder that gives enemies a +5 Save bonus on the second round of combat), but he has a lower Save DC and less spells per day because of the shitty casting system he labors under." That's almost enough to justify your existence at level 7. Almost.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

What use is the scroll of Summon Nature's ally for your sorcerer? I assume you mean to use the Razarri (sp?) priest, feature with it, but then you spend a higher level spell slot for it, so you could just use a higher level Summon Monster instead. Is there any situation where that would be better?

It's an artifact of me switching up summoning builds mid-stream. Summon Nature's Ally has a couple of options for a couple of iterations where they'd be even better than the Summon Monster counterpart of a higher level... or so I thought. If you're using Added Summons + Supreme Summoning though there's pretty much no reason to snag giants, even if you weren't eating a level penalty. I'd just ignore it.

[ishy]

In the comments: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5ld ... ts-Missing

Also, at least a short explanation of what normal magic items can be put on animal companions - for instance, we've often home ruled that a ring can be semi-permanently put onto an animal companion's ear via heal skill and cure light wounds, and the handle animal skill, to make an earring.

An animal companion or familiar can use any magic item for which it has the appropriate body slots. A monkey could wear a ring because it has fingers, but a dog could not (a human can't wear a ring as an earring, so a dog can't, either). Most animals can wear a shirt, or boots, or even a cloak or belt, but some may interfere with locomotion (an eagle wearing an appropriately-sized robe couldn't fly because even if it got its wings through the arm-holes, the robe's gonna mess with flapping).

So could an animal wear a hat?

[Lago PARANOIA]

So could an animal wear a hat?

Now you've done it.

[Mask_De_H]

So could an animal wear a hat?

Now you've done it.

Time to play pretty princess dressup with animal companions like a fat old Midwestern spinster.

EDIT: And I concede the point, Lago. Wanted you to put up or shut up, and you put up.

W EDIT: So I should too

Since you went to 12 and Yogi Hat Ranger doesnt' come online until 14th, might as well go Master Summoner. I assume you went HKS for the aura; I'm assuming it only needs Medium Armor Prof and/or AAT. I don't know that, so I'm just sticking it where Hellknight would fit in the build.


"Alice Margatroid"

Human Master Summoner 7 / Hellknight Signifier 1 (PoP) / Summoner 4

Feats:
1H: Skill Focus (Know Planes)
1: Medium Armor Training
2B: Augment Summoning
3: Supreme Summoning
5: Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal)
7: Arcane Armor Training
9: Sacred Summons
11: Quicken SLA

Swag: Ring of Minor Spell Storing, Robe of Arcane Heritage over some +1 Whatever property Mithril Chain, Ring of Friend Shield, Pearls to taste, SNA scrolls, Scroll of Imbue with Aura

"Shangai"
Bipedal Eidolon L12

Some shit I don't even care about, but with +8 to UMD, the Int for skill points, Flight and SF (UMD). Might even be able to bullshit its Cha high enough to buy the Sylvan Eldritch Heritage and Boon Companion for another pet and do your Cleric Ape trick.

Anyway, pre-combat sequence. Give the ring of SS to Shanghai, cast Imbue with Aura for [Chaotic] [Evil] or whatever off of the scroll. Have Shanghai cast it on Alice. Dismiss it. At level 12 the Master Summoner can drop 5+Cha castings of a sixth level spell thanks to their level one class feature. As long as Shanghai is off the field, the Summoner can drop an SMVI and then Quicken an SMV with the same metamagic rod, then cast SMVI as a standard action every round until Imbue runs out.

Can't quite get the same burst summoning, but can sure as shit outlast the Sorc in the long run. And by "long run", I mean "by turn three". Quicken SLA is just there for fuck you chaff summoning.

Or Alice could just have Shanghai out, Standard SMVI, have Shanghai do UMD bullshit like use the scroll of Heroism or [insert useful buff spell/Summon Monster from a Rod]. Alice only gets one class summon out at that point, though.

Anything you can do (if it involves summoning) she can do longer and actually better. Shit, if you can't Quicken 1-minute spells, Alice wins the summoning war (bulk wise)thanks to Quicken SLA and her ability being a Standard. The only thing the Sorcerer has on her summoning wise is Extra Summons, and she can pilfer that at 17th.

Now let me just make Shanghai and (if MGuy doesn't), I'll run her through the SGT.

[Username17]

SKR's diatribes are so stupid on so many levels. For fuck's sake: dogs have toes and they could totally wear rings if anyone really cared.

It is weird horseshit like this that makes Pathfinder still bad.

-Username17

[erik]

It cometh.

[Juton]

Quicken is weird in pathfinder, prepared casters can use it with 1 round spells.
Edit: Spontaneous casters might. For prepared 1 round is specifically called out, for spontaneous casters it isn't, but 1 round action is a full round action according to the magic rules.
Edit 2: FAQ calls it out as being usable for spontaneous casters as well : link

And you can't combine it with Arcane Armor Training because activating that uses a swift action for some weird reason.

In Pathfinder Sorcerer's can use quicken spell spontaneously, but not on spells with a casting time longer than a full round action.

PFSRD wrote:
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time.

It's a kind of weird distinction to make. But they make it.

@Lago

I did not realize they changed Alter Self so drastically.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Of course, all of this discussion about the efficacy of the summoner ignores one tiny, minor thing that you can't really overlook.

The mere existence of the summoner's spell list makes primary casters even more powerful. I brought this up earlier in the thread, but seriously, crap like Summon Monster VII being a fifth level spell or Greater Planar Binding being a sixth level spell bends the game over its knee. Not least because Pathfinder made it much easier to plunder spells from other lists.

There's a reason why when D&D deigns to throw a bone to off-casters they give them unique spells rather than just jacking down the level of pre-existing ones.

[ishy]

Quicken is weird in pathfinder, prepared casters can use it with 1 round spells.
Edit: Spontaneous casters might. For prepared 1 round is specifically called out, for spontaneous casters it isn't, but 1 round action is a full round action according to the magic rules.
Edit 2: FAQ calls it out as being usable for spontaneous casters as well : link
(...)

In Pathfinder Sorcerer's can use quicken spell spontaneously, but not on spells with a casting time longer than a full round action.

PFSRD wrote:
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time.

It's a kind of weird distinction to make. But they make it.

At least read my post if you quote it
It might not make sense to youanyone, but pathfinder says that a 1 round action spell is a full-round action.

@Mask_de_H
Summoner can't use pearls of power either.

[Username17]

At level 12 the Master Summoner can drop 5+Cha castings of a sixth level spell thanks to their level one class feature.

"A sixth level spell" in this case is "Summon Monster VI", which I think we can all agree is a pretty weak sixth level spell. It lets you pull in a large number of short-duration Huge Elementals or Celestial Dire Bears, one at a time. If that's your plan, you'd better have some pretty good defense for your actual character - because the ability to pop out an expendable CR 7 meat shield is nice and all, but won't by itself keep you from being trampled.

-Username17

[MGuy]

At level 12 the Master Summoner can drop 5+Cha castings of a sixth level spell thanks to their level one class feature.

"A sixth level spell" in this case is "Summon Monster VI", which I think we can all agree is a pretty weak sixth level spell. It lets you pull in a large number of short-duration Huge Elementals or Celestial Dire Bears, one at a time. If that's your plan, you'd better have some pretty good defense for your actual character - because the ability to pop out an expendable CR 7 meat shield is nice and all, but won't by itself keep you from being trampled.

-Username17

Trampled by what? by 12 level shouldn't you be flying most of the time?

[Koumei]

Not Trampled (Ex) but trampled in the sense of "mobbed by enemies that will break you in half as a Partial Action on their way to getting a coffee".

If I were to play a Pathfinder game (I'm not going to, short of being offered cash, and if you're going to pay someone to join your game, might I recommend just hiring a prostitute instead? Indeed, you can even dispense with the game entirely at that point, you have a prostitute), I'd give Summoner a try as it looks like it does have enough to pull its weight - decent spells that win the game (even remembering that some of the old winners now suck), and you can customise a BFF to complement your style and do awesomely for you.

But yeah, when fighting groups of enemies that can match your movement, you had better know the right actual spells to cast before they steamroll you.