You do fucking win at D&D.

[Mistborn]

If people want to do shit like what virgil did, then they will be made an example of.

You're not making an example of him. Everyone has to deal with your giant wall of spam that's why people are piling on you right now.

[Mr. GC]

If people want to do shit like what virgil did, then they will be made an example of.

You're not making an example of him. Everyone has to deal with your giant wall of spam that's why people are piling on you right now.

No, I'm making an example of him. This also pisses other people off, but see I'm right here saying every time virgil does that, this is what will happen. And then virgil does that, and I go ahead and punish him for it.

So you can bitch at me and waste your time, or bitch at him, and possibly get him to stfu before I have to ramp this up any further.

[nockermensch]

*WANK*

Your sense of humor, fairplay and empathy can only be rivaled by your D&D skills.


Here, win some more.

[name_here]

I think I can threaten people with petty annoyance to get them to shut up.

Tracking down images is work, but I suddenly dislike you very intensely and am tempted to start putting in effort.

Also, did you know editing quotes to say different things isn't against board rules and in fact a standard practice on this board for belittling posters?

[Kaelik]

No, I'm making an example of him. This also pisses other people off, but see I'm right here saying every time virgil does that, this is what will happen. And then virgil does that, and I go ahead and punish him for it.

So you can bitch at me and waste your time, or bitch at him, and possibly get him to stfu before I have to ramp this up any further.

No, I'm making an example of you. This also pisses other people off, but see I'm right here saying every time you do that, I will kill 6 million Jews. And then you do that, and I go ahead and punish you for it.

So people can bitch at me and waste their time, or bitch at you, and possibly get you to stop posting firewalls before I have to ramp this up any further by including Poles.

[virgil]

If people want to do shit like what virgil did, then they will be made an example of.

You're not making an example of him. Everyone has to deal with your giant wall of spam that's why people are piling on you right now.

No, I'm making an example of him by cutting myself. This also pisses other people off, but see I'm right here saying every time virgil does that, this is what will happen. And then virgil does that, and I go ahead and punish everyone for it.

So you can bitch at me and waste your time...

It's actually quite easy to ignore GC's 'examples' when you have him on ignore, as it very suddenly shrinks the entire thread to something readable. Really though, his excuse is akin to a drunk beating his wife because she isn't making him a sammich.


One question, hyzmarca, on your 'counter' threat request on him. Was that intended to be against each one individually, or a full group of six NPCs fighting the party? And if it's not a PF witch/alchemist, isn't that overly vague as requests go; and thus subject to GC's flippant answer of "make a party that's better than them"?

[Mr. GC]

I think I can threaten people with petty annoyance to get them to shut up.

Tracking down images is work, but I suddenly dislike you very intensely and am tempted to start putting in effort.

Also, did you know editing quotes to say different things isn't against board rules and in fact a standard practice on this board for belittling posters?

Are you quite sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure it is in fact against board rules.

[Zherog]

[voice of tech support]

Do NOT post that wall of images again, please. Or any other similar bullshit.

--Z
[/VoTS]

[Mr. GC]

[Mr. GC]

[voice of tech support]

Do NOT post that wall of images again, please. Or any other similar bullshit.

--Z
[/VoTS]

Lol, ninjaed. So no remarks on the constant rewriting of my posts and image spam by him?

[Zherog]

[VoTS]

I don't moderate here unless I have to. Frankly, I'm just tied of all the fucking emails I'm getting today.

I'll leave it fbmf to comment about the douchebaggery on bath sides of this pissing match.

--Z
[/VoTS]

[hyzmarca]

You're not making an example of him. Everyone has to deal with your giant wall of spam that's why people are piling on you right now.

No, I'm making an example of him by cutting myself. This also pisses other people off, but see I'm right here saying every time virgil does that, this is what will happen. And then virgil does that, and I go ahead and punish everyone for it.

So you can bitch at me and waste your time...

It's actually quite easy to ignore GC's 'examples' when you have him on ignore, as it very suddenly shrinks the entire thread to something readable. Really though, his excuse is akin to a drunk beating his wife because she isn't making him a sammich.


One question, hyzmarca, on your 'counter' threat request on him. Was that intended to be against each one individually, or a full group of six NPCs fighting the party? And if it's not a PF witch/alchemist, isn't that overly vague as requests go; and thus subject to GC's flippant answer of "make a party that's better than them"?

It's about as vague as a
A dragon.
A druid.
A psychic.
A shadow demon.
A pair of melee machines.
Various mooks.

and the flippant answer is probably the correct one at this point.

But I guess I'll elaborate a little more.

The witch specializes in buffs and prefers to issue orders from a distances. If forced into combat, she relies on blasting spells, but would rather teleport away in most situations. Scry & Die with teleporting minions while she remains safe in her palace is a favored strategy.


The winged fighter has Greater Teleport at Will as a spelllike but relies on melee combat for damage dealing. He's quite a monster when properly buffed by the witch.

The artificer has a clay golem army, as well as a smaller supply of more powerful constructs.

The alchemist and the minion don't do much fighting personally. They generally just provide potions and equipment.

The ranger is a melee monster, probably more powerful than the winged fighter. He also has teleport as an at-will and his companion possesses some extremely powerful ranged attacks.

They are working together, and will coordinate with each other.

[Kaelik]

Well of course the flippant answer was the correct one. The flippant answer was:

"Do good things, not bad things."

But since GC is contractually obligated to never ever actually describe an actual party with actual abilities, statistics, or tactics, and instead must say "Do the things that are good, but not the things that are bad." Talking to him is pretty pointless.

[Mr. GC]

It's about as vague as a
A dragon.
A druid.
A psychic.
A shadow demon.
A pair of melee machines.
Various mooks.

and the flippant answer is probably the correct one at this point.

But I guess I'll elaborate a little more.

The witch specializes in buffs and prefers to issue orders from a distances. If forced into combat, she relies on blasting spells, but would rather teleport away in most situations. Scry & Die with teleporting minions while she remains safe in her palace is a favored strategy.


The winged fighter has Greater Teleport at Will as a spelllike but relies on melee combat for damage dealing. He's quite a monster when properly buffed by the witch.

The artificer has a clay golem army, as well as a smaller supply of more powerful constructs.

The alchemist and the minion don't do much fighting personally. They generally just provide potions and equipment.

The ranger is a melee monster, probably more powerful than the winged fighter. He also has teleport as an at-will and his companion possesses some extremely powerful ranged attacks.

They are working together, and will coordinate with each other.

"A dragon." tells you a whole lot about what it can do. You instantly know to expect ranged attacks of facewrecking. Same for "a melee machine", "some mooks", and to a lesser extent "a psychic". Just knowing there's a druid or shadow demon doesn't tell you much about what they'll actually do, so that's where general purpose prep comes in.

In his scenario the witch is something you'd think is a threat but isn't... which actually helps you. Same for the artificer. That just leaves you with a couple of basic melee things... child's play, really. I mean really, melee Outsiders (because that's obviously what they are). That's the encounter?

Outsiders can't spec melee if they tried, so if they're doing that it's a free kill.

[hyzmarca]

It's about as vague as a
A dragon.
A druid.
A psychic.
A shadow demon.
A pair of melee machines.
Various mooks.

and the flippant answer is probably the correct one at this point.

But I guess I'll elaborate a little more.

The witch specializes in buffs and prefers to issue orders from a distances. If forced into combat, she relies on blasting spells, but would rather teleport away in most situations. Scry & Die with teleporting minions while she remains safe in her palace is a favored strategy.


The winged fighter has Greater Teleport at Will as a spelllike but relies on melee combat for damage dealing. He's quite a monster when properly buffed by the witch.

The artificer has a clay golem army, as well as a smaller supply of more powerful constructs.

The alchemist and the minion don't do much fighting personally. They generally just provide potions and equipment.

The ranger is a melee monster, probably more powerful than the winged fighter. He also has teleport as an at-will and his companion possesses some extremely powerful ranged attacks.

They are working together, and will coordinate with each other.

"A dragon." tells you a whole lot about what it can do. You instantly know to expect ranged attacks of facewrecking. Same for "a melee machine", "some mooks", and to a lesser extent "a psychic". Just knowing there's a druid or shadow demon doesn't tell you much about what they'll actually do, so that's where general purpose prep comes in.

In his scenario the witch is something you'd think is a threat but isn't... which actually helps you. Same for the artificer. That just leaves you with a couple of basic melee things... child's play, really. I mean really, melee Outsiders (because that's obviously what they are). That's the encounter?

Outsiders can't spec melee if they tried, so if they're doing that it's a free kill.

They aren't Outsiders. The ranger is a human.

[Mr. GC]

Then they got the Greater Teleport some other way? That... makes them even easier. Again, if you're expecting actual threats, and actually get easier fights, that is indeed easier. Must we do the RPGSite dance now where they did not get this?

[hyzmarca]

Then they got the Greater Teleport some other way? That... makes them even easier. Again, if you're expecting actual threats, and actually get easier fights, that is indeed easier. Must we do the RPGSite dance now where they did not get this?

What makes you think it makes them easier?
And really, you haven't made any actual suggestions at this point. You're just saying that my antagonists are too weak, when you only have a basic idea of what they're capable of.

[Mr. GC]

Then they got the Greater Teleport some other way? That... makes them even easier. Again, if you're expecting actual threats, and actually get easier fights, that is indeed easier. Must we do the RPGSite dance now where they did not get this?

What makes you think it makes them easier?
And really, you haven't made any actual suggestions at this point. You're just saying that my antagonists are too weak, when you only have a basic idea of what they're capable of.

Outsiders fail at meleeing because they just don't have the stats for it. At best, they can do an average job. And that's WITH you piling Knowledge and Law Devotion onto a fucking devil or something, just so it can sit there and swing at you instead of spamming Wall of Ice, or illusions, or save or loses or whatever.

Humanoids have even worse stats. Since these are melees we're talking about, a couple of stat lines are literally all that matters about the entire thing.

So see, what you did was list six threats, and then four were not threats by default and two were things the party could prepare for as if they were threats, but then they learn they actually aren't, making them much easier.

End result? If you just did standard prep and nothing else you'd win easily. If you did any sort of more specific prep you'd win even more easily as this is obviously just a throwaway encounter, even if it is meant to be otherwise. If you wanted it to not be a throwaway encounter, you'd have to start by rewriting the encounter concept from scratch (lol golems).

[Kaelik]

GC Make a "standard prep" level 10 party. I will pull four CR 10-12 encounters out of my ass, and I mean real CR 10-12, not arbitrarily buffed "CR 7" Bugbear Sorcerer 8.

Your party will TPK and I will laugh.

EDIT: 32 PB, all books, but no:

1) Leadership
2) Minions which depend on having previously found X (IE, animated skeletons, diplomancered things, Dominated things.)
3) Use of items that cast spells higher than level 5, or bringing in monsters that do so (This is really just me trying to cover every variation of "Then I wish for an Belt of Magnificence +9000.")
4) Anything that could give you CL higher than your ECL +10.

[hyzmarca]

Then they got the Greater Teleport some other way? That... makes them even easier. Again, if you're expecting actual threats, and actually get easier fights, that is indeed easier. Must we do the RPGSite dance now where they did not get this?

What makes you think it makes them easier?
And really, you haven't made any actual suggestions at this point. You're just saying that my antagonists are too weak, when you only have a basic idea of what they're capable of.

Outsiders fail at meleeing because they just don't have the stats for it. At best, they can do an average job. And that's WITH you piling Knowledge and Law Devotion onto a fucking devil or something, just so it can sit there and swing at you instead of spamming Wall of Ice, or illusions, or save or loses or whatever.

Humanoids have even worse stats. Since these are melees we're talking about, a couple of stat lines are literally all that matters about the entire thing.

So see, what you did was list six threats, and then four were not threats by default and two were things the party could prepare for as if they were threats, but then they learn they actually aren't, making them much easier.

End result? If you just did standard prep and nothing else you'd win easily. If you did any sort of more specific prep you'd win even more easily as this is obviously just a throwaway encounter, even if it is meant to be otherwise. If you wanted it to not be a throwaway encounter, you'd have to start by rewriting the encounter concept from scratch (lol golems).

Stats can be adjusted with items, spells, and equipment.

In this case, the meleers spend some time drinking a bunch of potions to buff their stats, put on their equipment, and get enlarged to Colossal Size, teleport in with 30 Colossal-Sized Clay Golems and three or four of Colossal Sized Simulacrum Beholders. The Golems are mostly fodder, used for restricting movement and keeping the other side in the Beholders' AMFs.

They then wade in melee with their obscene strength bonuses.

If that doesn't work then the human pulls out his flute of dragon commanding and summons his colossal-sized half-dragon mythril golem berserker.

[Mr. GC]

Stats can be adjusted with items, spells, and equipment.

In this case, the meleers spend some time drinking a bunch of potions to buff their stats, put on their equipment, and get enlarged to Colossal Size, teleport in with 30 Colossal-Sized Clay Golems and three or four of Colossal Sized Simulacrum Beholders. The Golems are mostly fodder, used for restricting movement and keeping the other side in the Beholders' AMFs.

They then wade in melee with their obscene strength bonuses.

And by obscene strength bonuses you mean fucking fuckity fuck, we're in an AMF now, so all those buffs are suppressed. Right?

But ok, they kill their own goddamned Beholders so they can actually function.

In the meantime you have a force that is clearly well into Epic levels and yet somehow can find worthy targets who:

1: Are not Mind Blanked.
2: Have no counter for Teleportation (and note, actual Teleport, in any form does not actually work that way because you can only bring one creature with you per 3 levels and a single Colossal Golem counts as 16).
3: Are standing on the ground.
4: Have no counter for AMF.
5: Have no counter for something that runs up and hits them.
6: Is not seeing this scenario and laughing their godly fucking balls off.

This is assuming you're even talking about D&D anymore and aren't just going HURR DURR COLOSSAL EVERYTHING PWNS ALL.

But if you are the reason why Outsiders = melee fail is BAB = level at best, combined with nothing special Str wise, and not a ton of stacked buffs. In essence the same reason as humanoids, except humanoids have even lower stats.

Now if you were really smart you could stack buffs on a Balor and get it up to like +60, and that'd actually be decent, and you could show that and make a point. But ya know, the Balor is still better off casting while you go melee with a dragon or something, so whatever.

[hyzmarca]

And by obscene strength bonuses you mean fucking fuckity fuck, we're in an AMF now, so all those buffs are suppressed. Right?

But ok, they kill their own goddamned Beholders so they can actually function.

Beholder AMFs are cones, not spheres. You can keep the other guys in the cones while remaining outside of them yourself.

2: Have no counter for Teleportation (and note, actual Teleport, in any form does not actually work that way because you can only bring one creature with you per 3 levels and a single Colossal Golem counts as 16).

They can teleport themselves.

3: Are standing on the ground.

Most people are, most of the time.

This is assuming you're even talking about D&D anymore and aren't just going HURR DURR COLOSSAL EVERYTHING PWNS ALL.

I picked a group of antagonists that I'm familiar with. The fact that growing huge is one of their shticks is simply a coincidence.

[Avoraciopoctules]

[quote="hyzmarca]

This is assuming you're even talking about D&D anymore and aren't just going HURR DURR COLOSSAL EVERYTHING PWNS ALL.

I picked a group of antagonists that I'm familiar with. The fact that growing huge is one of their shticks is simply a coincidence.[/quote]
I hope this turns out to be what I think it might.

[name_here]

[quote="hyzmarca]

This is assuming you're even talking about D&D anymore and aren't just going HURR DURR COLOSSAL EVERYTHING PWNS ALL.

I picked a group of antagonists that I'm familiar with. The fact that growing huge is one of their shticks is simply a coincidence.

I hope this turns out to be what I think it might.[/quote]

I'm not sure wh-

Oh. Yes, I think it is.

[virgil]

In the meantime you have a force that is clearly well into Epic levels and yet somehow can find worthy targets who[anyone willing to date me]:

Just because you have difficulty differentiating between Epic and non-Epic, let alone people willing to date you, doesn't mean other people can't. Besides, don't worry what other people think about you. Do you know why?

5: Have no counter for something that runs up and hits them.

Really? You don't know of the counter to the counter for running up and hitting people? I thought you were trying to deny being a basket weaver.

But if you are the reason why Outsiders = melee fail is BAB = level at best, combined with nothing special Str wise, and not a ton of stacked buffs. In essence the same reason as humanoids, except humanoids have even lower stats.

Good thing nobody (DM & player alike) ever does the stupid thing and makes characters that are humanoid for melee, because their stats svck and would never be a threat. At least, I think that's what you're trying to say. It's hard to tell with that grammar; or the math for that matter, because apparently BAB must be greater than level (assuming you mean level/HD, and not CR, because otherwise you'd say CR), which is a whole other level of stupid if you think that's expected.