Fixing the Wealth-by-Level system

[Lago_AM3P]

At 2nd level, PCs are expected to have about 300 gold pieces. For those of you keeping track, this is about 3000 days worth of peasant wealth.

The Stronghold Builder's guide is balanced on the fact that you pay through the nose for fortresses and shit, yet a cleric and a wizard working in concert with fabricate and wall of stone and stone shape and whatever can erect a fortress for free.

That said, why don't we divorce the game from wealth entirely? The only aspect of the game where it matters at all is magical items, and then it breaks the game utterly. Instead of having a system where you can plop 200,000 gold pieces down on a castle or on a magical sword, why not do this:

For purposes related to spell components and magic item cash, we have an entirely separate system of currency called soul points. You get soul points just like you get gold, except that every monster has them, and you only get them for actually defeating a foe like the system says you do. They're only good for magic and magical items. You can find these in stores, sellable for the. Certain spellcasters and feats also lets you cannabalize other magical items for more soul points.

To balance this, there is also a lot more item customization and creation and it's cheaper and easier, too. However, found weapons under this system are worth more for PCs of a certain level than they are in standard D&D, just so they're still worth something.

Rough idea, but what do you think? I just want to support a game where there are high-level PCs who both have to run away from the angry innkeepers because they can't pay their rent and also have a kingdom of loyal worshippers who they gleefully tax the shit out of without either breaking the game. I think that woul dgo a long way towards fixing a lot of problems.

[Wrenfield]

For purposes related to spell components and magic item cash, we have an entirely separate system of currency called soul points. You get soul points just like you get gold, except that every monster has them, and you only get them for actually defeating a foe like the system says you do. They're only good for magic and magical items. You can find these in stores, sellable for the. Certain spellcasters and feats also lets you cannabalize other magical items for more soul points.

Stores and merchants that only accept "soul points" for a specific set type of merchandise? That sounds ... awkward. Also, how do you figure into your systemn some items like Masterwork "whatevers" and alchemical devices whose costs and efficacy are even more than some low-level magic items?

And that still does not really address how to deal with the Fabricate/Creation spells, Wall of Stone/Iron, and the other economics-affecting spells.

Also, what happens to players who wish to craft their own magic items or the above Fabricate/Wall spells ... and then sell their goods to other people for either cash or soul points? Anything preventing them from doing that? I don't see a way you can enforce a soul point bartering system.

**

I think an easier way to fix the wealth system is by making minor adjustments to the few guilty spells that wreak havok on local economies. I don't know if there is a way to nerf these spells so that money-making ventures are more difficult, but tactically they stay viable for adventuring. But it should be easier than devising a complete alternative to the macroeconomics of an entire gaming world.

[Lago_AM3P]

Stores and merchants that only accept "soul points" for a specific set type of merchandise? That sounds ... awkward. Also, how do you figure into your systemn some items like Masterwork "whatevers" and alchemical devices whose costs and efficacy are even more than some low-level magic items?

I've never really seen unlimited amounts of masterwork full plates and longbows breaking the game, even when the entire king's army has them and they're made from mithral; they can probably still have the same price in real honest-to-god money.

What really breaks the game, though, is when you throw in +3 and +4 magical items.

And that still does not really address how to deal with the Fabricate/Creation spells, Wall of Stone/Iron, and the other economics-affecting spells.

No, it doesn't. The solution is that you don't care if this will actually break the economies in the gaming world, since your characters' power isn't directly tied to the swag they have on hand.

Having these spells in do change the nature of the game, but the PCs are supposed to be instigating wars between angels and demons and completely wrecking totalitarian governments. Who really cares if the party wizard destroys Vallenwood's economy by creating suits of masterwork plate mail in seconds?

Also, what happens to players who wish to craft their own magic items or the above Fabricate/Wall spells ... and then sell their goods to other people for either cash or soul points? Anything preventing them from doing that? I don't see a way you can enforce a soul point bartering system.

There probably will be a way to use money to buy magical items created by soul points, but it's really no big deal. You just don't attach a price to it and you work it out with the DM.

There are plenty of stories about things like magical swords being bought for a sixpence and thieves unknowingly stealing items of real ultimate power, and the system exists in the game RIGHT NOW. A rogue being able to steal Glamdring or trick Beowulf into handing over Grendel's sword for a hot night of passion doesn't really break the game. Attaching a price to Excalibur, expecting the PCs to have only a top limit on cash each level, and then making several ways in this game to bypass the top limit on cash (fabricate or no) does break the game, however.

I think an easier way to fix the wealth system is by making minor adjustments to the few guilty spells that wreak havok on local economies. I don't know if there is a way to nerf these spells so that money-making ventures are more difficult, but tactically they stay viable for adventuring. But it should be easier than devising a complete alternative to the macroeconomics of an entire gaming world.

There's no way you can really fix it. You can still STEAL or BLUFF the equipment in question; I haven't seen any solution to the wizard dominating the magic shop owner and jacking him of his loot, even though it's perfectly okay to do it to dragons.

[Essence]

See: Earthdawn's threadweaving system. It's the only way I'm familiar with in any tabletop RPG to ensure that everyone's items are appropriate for their level. It also has the bonus of allowing someone to carry an artifact from day one, and only access it's powers as they become uber enough to handle them responsibility.

[Username17]

Spell Components shouldn't generally exist, they don't balance anything.

Spells you have cast aren't part of the wealth by level guidelines, so ideally a character who casts a lot of forcecage gets more treasure in the future. Really.

The most fun I ever saw players have with a box full of treasure was near the end of a game I ran set in 13th century earth plus magic - with approximately real currency values. The characters did most of their trading in barter, and places you could buy magic were few and far between. Most of the campaign they hoarded their silver pennies and had to bargain to get lodging.

Since there was no set price list, they would actually invest in stuff that seemed cheap wherever they happened to be in the hopes of trading it later on.

And then, at about 10th level, they defeated some vampires and ended up with a box full of coins. Real box, real coins, and we worked out its weight in kilograms. Players jaws actually dropped, and they started making big plans on what to do with this astounding influx of wealth. It was mostly filled with copper, but in the real world that was still a huge amount of money.

D&D really loses out on the sense of wonder for wealth by setting the standard so high.

-Username17

[User3]

"Soul points" sound like a decent balancing factor, but it also sounds computer-gamey and would only actually make sense in certain very fantastic campaigns (I can see it in Ghostwalk or Planescape, but not DL or DS).

I have no idea what Earthdawn's 'threadweaving' system is, but it sounds on the right track (and the one Earthdawn book I ever read was pretty good).

I think that the whole idea of magic items is faulty. Characters should not have to carry around their primary source of power, it should be part of them.

Why not just get rid of anything beyond cheap, single use items and artifacts. Keep the Sovereign glue, Folding boat, Potion of Cure light wounds, and Decanter of endless water. Get rid of the +1 sword, the +1 mythril breastplate, the Ring of wizardry III, and all of the rest of the standardised items.

Then power up the classes. Give characters better abilities. Give them a feat (like Item familiar, only better) that gives them an item that levels up with them.

Items are supposed to be what customize your character, but with all of the feats and PrCs around we don't need that any more. Once the Fighter isn't dependant on 200lbs/500,000 gp of gold to keep him viable, maybe he'll be more fun to play. The best part is no more Vow of Poverty!

And of, course, the economy can go back to (relatively) normal.

-Catharz Godsfoot

[Modesitt]

I have no idea what Earthdawn's 'threadweaving' system is, but it sounds on the right track (and the one Earthdawn book I ever read was pretty good).

Earthdawn Summarized:

It's a hyrbid Level/skill system. Your level(Or Circle in Earthdawn jargon) determines what skills and spells you have access to. When you raise a certain number of skills to a certain level, you can raise your Circle again.

The way magic items in Earthdawn work is you have to use a skill known as 'thread weaving', available to 3rd Circle(Circles are 1-15) characters of any class or 1st level Spell Caster classes. You spend some experience and then your magic item is bonded at Level 1. As you spend more experience on your magic item, you unlock more of its power. It's usually not just a matter of spending experience to unlock the greater powers of an item, you usually have to also perform some task(s) in order to unlock its powers, tasks that are often related to the creator in some way. For example, a sword wielded by a great dragonslayer may require you slay a dragon with it in order to unlock its greatest power. Magic items in ED can also be created somewhat spontaneously by great events.

Note that ED is a much higher magic world than most D&D settings. Weak magic items are used in every day life to improve the citizenship, such as cloaks that never get wet, pots that don't need a fire to be heated, etc. Such items don't require unlocking, just you need to pay someone for them. In addition, all character classes are magical to some degree, especially once you get into the higher circle powers.

ED had some good ideas...and a lot of really bad mechanics.

[Username17]

I will hasten to point out that my problem with Earthdawn's bonding system is the same as my problem with Shadowrun's bonding system (unsurprisingly).

If you pay your own skill points into a specific item, you have to be getting a better deal than paying skill points into getting abilities straight or its not worth it. But the "disadvantage" is that you can lose the item forever by having it be stolen or destroyed. This disadvantage can't come into play unless and until you lose the item forever, at which point you've lost your skill points forever, making your character into the permanent suck relative to other characters of your level.

In short, it's a "kick ass now, suck ass later" system. And like aging, it doesn't balance anything. It just makes different party members unhappy at different times.

-Username17

[Sma]

But you you could use a variant of these systems, where you have to be powerful enough to use an cartain item or access it´s higher powers.
You´ll get the Sword of Real Ultimate Power at level 1 and it will only work as +1, or masterwork, when you get a few levels under your belt the other functions are unnlocked, either automatically or by doing an Earthdawn type quest. This won´t cost you any XP or money, so you won´t have to invest something into a stealable item (something any crafter does all the time btw.)

And instead of finding the next better weapon and discarding your old one yu could instead find the clues or materials for the ritual to upgrade your weapon.

Greets,

Sma

[User3]

We have "soul points." We call it XP.

Basically, XP is the only thing that PCs value. XP gets you abilities and feats. Sometimes, it is more advantagous to just spend the XP on cool items than it is to gain a level.

Some ways to balance items is to just make them cost a lot of time to make, or have quest-based components. Otherwise, people will just do the math and say "Lets just take a week off and make some items."

If you had to say "let's just take two years off, and make some items" then you might actually have some people say "but if we do that, the Black Duke will take over Sommerland!"

Quest based creation also is problamatic, since PCs are usually more than willing to go on random quests. Relying on player infighting to prevent power cheese doesn't work.

So I say, just make it cost XP. Make money a valueless thing, and make it impossible to buy magic items more powerful than 2 K. That'll balance the system far more than any of the other options.

[Username17]

There is another option.

XP does not, and I think cannot really balance anything. Your measure of power, the measure which determines how much XP you get from overcoming challenges, is based on how much XP you've spent into getting hit dice. If you allow XP to be spent in any other way that system completely breaks down.

But consider Contingency. What is the important restriction of it?

Is it the monetary cost?
The casting time?
The research time to learn it in the first place?
The limit of the maximum spell level you can put into it?
The fact that you can only have one up at a time?

What is it that keeps Contingency from taking over the game and making it no fun?

Couldn't we do the same thing for other item creation?

-Username17

[User3]

I vote for a max usuable power limit with XP costs:

XP costs: Making items costs XP, as per the current system. The costs are minimal, but it keeps people from making too many. Remove the money cost entirely. I think that the system can handle easy magic creation. It just can’t handle easy magic use.

Make it so only a certain number of enchantments can be on one person, and after that either bad things happen or some items get suppressed by the more powerful magicks on the person.

So go ahead and make as many items as you want. You can only use so many of them at a time.

I think it should also be extended to spells cast on characters. I really hate the idea of people combing the books for every spell with a bonus that stacks, and then casting it and pulling out the calculator to see how big their bonuses just got.

Artifacts will be the only thing outside of the system (one per person, on top of your stuff).

[Username17]

XP costs: Making items costs XP, as per the current system. The costs are minimal, but it keeps people from making too many. Remove the money cost entirely. I think that the system can handle easy magic creation. It just can’t handle easy magic use.

But XP costs are easy magic use. Really easy. Too easy.

Make it so only a certain number of enchantments can be on one person, and after that either bad things happen or some items get suppressed by the more powerful magicks on the person.

This could work. But it doesn't need XP costs in any way shape or form to work. Having an absolute maximum number and power of swag can actually function to limit the amount of swag people use.

Putting some down scaling cost on the items can't. Sooner or later people are going to figure out that their total XP can actually go up if they periodically spend it on making stuff instead of growing larger. It just doesn't balance anything.

The limit of one magical sword is a meaningful limit. It does't make any difference if you make a second magical sword which is as good or inferior to the first one. The limitation of gold or XP costs on your one magical sword is not meaningful. It doesn't stop you from making the best possible sword you can every single time you have that ability.

Non-meaningful limitations are bad for the game. They act as real psychological limitations on some people and no limitations at all on others. That's bad because it means that the same exact power is going to be variously powerful when possessed by people who understand accounting to a greater or lesser degree.

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

I would love to divorce wealth from power level as much as possible. Dragon hordes, king's treasuries, merchant caravans all screw up any attempt at useing cash as a power measure. I'd be quite happy to replace the curency with something less abundant in the game world.

I'd also like to reduce the number of items a character has drastically. Rejiggering the slot system would do this really easily. Armour, jewlery, slotless 1, slotless 2. Add one hand held item for each hand and thats it. Slotless 1&2 can be whatever the hell you want, earrings, slippers, ioun stones etc.

[RandomCasualty]

1084807883[/unixtime]]
Quest based creation also is problamatic, since PCs are usually more than willing to go on random quests. Relying on player infighting to prevent power cheese doesn't work.

I can't agree with that. quest based creation is really easy to deal with from a balance standpoint, Conceptually it's no worse than having a player unearth a +3 sword in the lair of a dragon. Instead of doing that, he's taking the dragons head and making a sword with it. Basically the same thing.

The main problem is that it assumes you have a DM who is going to make a quest based around what you want to do and that the recipe changes everytime you want to create a new magical item, even if it's the exact same magical item. Thus making it so you can never mass produce anything. This mechanic doesn't make any sense conceptually, but balance wise it has to work that way.

XP could be a useful limiting factor, as it works that way with wish, but it'd have to be enough XP to strongly discourage people from making items.

[Josh_Kablack]

It would involve a massive reworking of magic items, but I would really like to see a magic item system that did the following things:

1. Reduced the number of item/enchantment "slots"

2. Reduced the types of bonuses and de-emphasized the current stacking craziness. ( I could go off on a tangent about status conditions and immunities here)

3. (this is the big one) Had scaling requirements/prerequisites for item USE instead of item manufacture. Currently spell-trigger and spell-completeion items have some prereqs, but I'd like to see a system where EVERYTHING had requirements for basic use, and then further requirements for advanced use. Thus a 15th level fighter could get more +x out of a magic sword than a 5th level fighter and a 15th level wizard could get more oomph out of his wand than a 5th level wizard.

[Draco_Argentum]

1084852012[/unixtime]]
3. (this is the big one) Had scaling requirements/prerequisites for item USE instead of item manufacture.

AKA The great hero uses the sword, not the wise old man who gives it to him.

[RandomCasualty]

1084852012[/unixtime]]
2. Reduced the types of bonuses and de-emphasized the current stacking craziness. ( I could go off on a tangent about status conditions and immunities here)

Yeah, that's a definite. I'd really like to see the amount of bonus types decreased heavily... There's simply no need to have as many bonus types as they do. You could almost get by with just enhancement for most stuff, like skills, caster level, attack rolls, and so on.

[Username17]

The current Bonus types are in the core rules:

. Alchemical
. Armor
. Circumstance
. Competance
. Deflection
. Dodge
. Enhancement
. Enlargement
. Haste
. Inherent
. Insight
. Luck
. Morale
. Natural Armor
. Profane
. Resistance
. Sacred
. Shield
. Unamed
---

Some of these are mechanically important. A Dodge bonus is an unnamed bonus which goes away at certain times, for example. Many others of these can really go away completely. In non-core material also here are:

. Berserk
. Divine
. Exalted
. Fury
. Vile

etc. etc.

And who could forget the unique bonus types such as the "Spectre's Life Draining Ability Bonus" that Skip Williams insists exists even though it is never mentioned in the rules?

Some of these bonus types are there for the explicit purpose of allowing additional things to stack to Armor Class - The Armor, Shield, and Natural Armor bonuses are all separate for the real and exclusive reason that they allow a Lizard Man to wear chain mail and carry a shield without feeling like a dumbass.

Some of these bonus types are in there for no damn reason at all. Anyone have any idea why there should be a competence bonus and an insight bonus? Anyone know why there should be a Sacred Bonus, a Prfoane Bonus, an Exalted Bonus, and a Vile Bonus when there's a Divine Bonus to simply replace all of them with? Do we even really need the Divine Bonus when we have a Morale Bonus?

-Username17

[User3]

The single stupidest type of bonus has he be Inherent. Why exactly do we need a bonus that isn't quite a real increase or Unnamed bonus and isn't quite and Enhancement? Is it just to screw over those who decided to get a Wished +1 to their prime requisite as soon as possible rather then waiting until they could get +5?

[RandomCasualty]

1084895421[/unixtime]]
Some of these bonus types are there for the explicit purpose of allowing additional things to stack to Armor Class - The Armor, Shield, and Natural Armor bonuses are all separate for the real and exclusive reason that they allow a Lizard Man to wear chain mail and carry a shield without feeling like a dumbass.

Yeah, though as of late, I'm having serious issues with the natural armor bonus. There's too much of a variance between stuff with natural armor wearing armor and stuff not wearing armor, especially when you deal with polymorphed characters.

There are some forms, like lizardman that are actually designed to wear armor, and there are others, like dragons that aren't designed to do so (at least without becoming unbalanced). I think there should be a point where your so heavily naturally armored, like a dragon, that you gain no extra benefit from buying plate mail... well at least no armor benefit. You may still want it for fortification or something.

As for bonus types, you could probably ditch lots of them. Deflection and all the divine bonuses (profane, holy, etc) can just be called luck bonuses. I'd say leave morale bonuses, but make them exclusive to the bardic music ability.

And whenever you can use an enhancement bonus you should. Resistance bonuses don't need to exist, they're just enhancement bonuses to saving throws. All skill bonus items should just be enhancement bonuses.

Unnamed bonuses shouldn't exist at all except in terms of feats and class abilities. Spells or magic items should never grant unnamed bonuses.

Inherent bonuses are necessary I think for permanent stat increase stuff. Though they need to definitely scale differently. A wish to increase someone's strength by +1 should cost something like 5000 XP + 2500 XP per existing inherent bonus point. Obviously those two numbers are purely arbitrary, but a form like that would work well to solve the wish problem.

[The_Hanged_Man]

I'm w/ you except for inherent bonuses. IMO, there needs to be something that's just a permanent increase that stacks w/ "temporary" buffs. I like your system for wishes, but books are there as well. Although I'm not sure who makes them. Is there a god that blows them out of his ass or something?

[Sma]

Why have Bonus Types at all ?
Let everything stack, after all usually you have to invest something, be it a spell, items or time/help to gain a bonus.
You´ll have to lower the size of a lot of bonuses, but after that. Let everything stack.
You can still name them like Dodge to help people understand what your talking about, and for helping to define when they apply and when not. But after that let everything add up. If someone wants to cast Bull´s Strength twice, or wears a Giants Belt combined with the Gauntlets of Ogre Power let him.
He´s investing something so he should be getting something out of it
In my opinion, combined with fewer Item Slots or an absolute maximum of active boosts, this could work and make the system simple.

Sma

[RandomCasualty]

1084922556[/unixtime]] I like your system for wishes, but books are there as well. Although I'm not sure who makes them. Is there a god that blows them out of his ass or something?

I'd make the books into lesser artifacts. PCs aren't gonna want to make them anyway, and there's no reason NPCs will either. And if they're a lesser artifact, They can just grant a flat increase to the ability bonus, and because you can never actually count on finding or buying one, you don't have to worry about balancing them much.

Let everything stack, after all usually you have to invest something, be it a spell, items or time/help to gain a bonus.
You´ll have to lower the size of a lot of bonuses, but after that. Let everything stack.
You can still name them like Dodge to help people understand what your talking about, and for helping to define when they apply and when not. But after that let everything add up. If someone wants to cast Bull´s Strength twice, or wears a Giants Belt combined with the Gauntlets of Ogre Power let him.

I strongly disagree with this idea. Just imagine a caster purely decked out in intelligence gear. He'd roll over everybody. Hell, with a wand of Fox's cunning you could take out a god.

[Username17]

I strongly disagree with this idea. Just imagine a caster purely decked out in intelligence gear. He'd roll over everybody. Hell, with a wand of Fox's cunning you could take out a god.

The suggestion was to scrap the idea of non-stacking bonuses and then limit the total number of magical bonuses you could benefit from.

Thus, with a wand of Fox's Cunning, you could replace all of your bonuses with Intelligence Bonuses - but you still aren't killing a god.

-Username17