Best System for Dragonlance?

[CalibronXXX]

Okay, here goes nothing.

Frank: I don't necessarily hail any specific translation as more valid than the others, they all have minor to moderate mistakes, language is funny that. When I have a problem understanding what is being said I check different editions, look up the historic context, and check what different scholars have to say in the matter. But for general use I have a King James study Bible, I use this particular version because I just like the way it sounds. If I could read Greek and Hebrew, and I plan to learn within the next couple years, I would read the books in their original context.

I do not view the books excluded during the making of the King James version as divinely inspired in the same way as those that were retained. The reason for this is because I do not believe God would allow what would be internationally thought of as The Bible for several hundred years to be so devastatingly flawed as to fail to include several whole books. I do however, view them as having worth as historical context and, in some cases, possibly being divinely inspired to serve some other function than to be a part of the Bible. I have copies of some of them, and would also like to study them in their original language.

I do now see your point about the Coptics though, and I must say I'm slightly embarrassed to have needed it to be spelled out. I'm not part of any "Born Again" sect or organization; I just refer to the event of accepting the sacrifice of Jesus in your place and subsequently becoming invested with the Holy Spirit, being saved, as being born again since that's one of the more common and least often misunderstood terms for said event.

Tzor: When I first started dwelling on what you said I was almost convinced that I was incorrect in my conclusions, but as I thought more and more about I found new problems with the whole thing.

I was aware of the meaning of to pray as in to ask, "Pray tell, what is the time?", but I admit I had never linked it to prayer before. If I had stopped pondering after this point I'd be apologizing right now, and nothing else, but as I mentioned I found more flaws. First of all praying to the deceased, Saint or not, for some kind of boon is, at the very least, a close cousin to consorting with familiar spirits. Secondly many of the little stock prayers to the saints or the virgin Mary you are taught as a catholic have nothing to do with asking and are purely praiseful. If you tried, you may be able to chock this up to simply honoring these individuals, but you are taught these things in the exact same context and state of mind as prayers directed to the Lord God. I feel that is wrong and is placing these people in the as a sort of pantheon in the catholic doctrine.

You have changed my mind in some ways, I've realized that, to my knowledge, a person can indeed follow the catholic traditions and things, and still do their best to follow The Lord, just as long as they are in the right state of mind. I still don't like the way catholics do things, but I realize you can be both a good catholic and a good Christian. Thank you.

[Username17]

I do not view the books excluded during the making of the King James version as divinely inspired in the same way as those that were retained. The reason for this is because I do not believe God would allow what would be internationally thought of as The Bible for several hundred years to be so devastatingly flawed as to fail to include several whole books.

And it doesn't bother you that the eastern orthodoxy, the face of Christianity from Athens to Vlodivostock actually uses a different set of books as The Bible?

What makes the fact that the people in your area mostly use the King James version so massively important that God would intervene to keep you informed while God would not intervene on behalf of the Christians in Adrianopol or Sophia?

-Username17

[CalibronXXX]

They speak an entirely different language, so they would have to have a different translation. I am not well informed on what constitutes the eastern orthodox bible, but from little research I just did it seems that that merely have additional books and are not missing anything that the king James version(and derived editions) contains; as long as no information is removed I don't see a real problem. If my sources have failed me I would be happy to be learn the truth.

I'll have to buy an eastern orthodox bible now that it's been brought to my attention, apparently I haven't been active enough in my search for truth.

[Voss]

Picking up the Hebrew for this sort of thing should be required, as far as I'm concerned. The modern translations of the Old Testament that most christians use these days bear almost no relation to the hebrew version.

Between the stuff thats specifically been removed due to various Councils and conferences deciding what material should actually be included, and generations of poor translations of poor translations of yet more translations, the story that is being told is different to the point of being unrecognizable.

Of course, there is also some serious editing going on even when the Hebrew version was being compiled. One of major changes back in BC was centered around justifying Elisha and the move to monotheism.

But even with various translation issues, the King James version is frankly shit, and becomes even more shitty every few years. 'Uncomfortable' material is still being removed, in order to make sure it tells the 'right' story.

[Captain_Bleach]

That's why I given up on trying to make sense of ancient religious texts.

[tzor]

Frank, I think you might be making a mountain out of a molehill here; the differences between the cannons of the scriptures among the major churches is minor at best compared with the differences among the churches in the first centuries of the church. It gets more complicated because scripture is not a binary thing, just because it is not in the list of the books of the Bible doesn't mean that the church thinks it's crap. This becomes more important when one looks "east" as it were because solid divisions are less apparent in eastern thought as they are in western thought.

In both Catholic and Orthodox history there is the importance that what was passed down was more important than what was written because what was passed down reveals and explains what was written. We find this in two places in the Bible, the first in acts where a person reading the psalms admits that it is hard to understand what was written unless it was properly explained. The second is Peter's letter that complains that some people twisted the letters of Paul to their own destruction as they did the other scriptures.

The biggest problem the early church had were the Gnostics. They quoted scriptures as much as the successors of the Apostles. The church responded by a more direct argument, that they were given the good news by those who were given the good news from the Apostles; or in other words a notion that would eventually be known as apostolic succession. It is in this light that we find in the original creed put forth by the councils that the church was one, holy, universal and apostolic. It is where we get the primary word for teaching the faith; apologetics.

We have a great cloud of witnesses. One of the secret treasures of the Catholic Church can be found within what is now known as the "Liturgy of the Hours" which is known as the "Office of Readings." In this office in addition to scripture and psalms, there is a reading of a saint, or council or something equally important to the particular feast or solemnity of the day. Yes their writing is not "scripture" and public revelation ended with the last Apostle, but both east and west hold the telling of the good news from age to age in high esteem because past, present and future, we are the people of God.

[Username17]

Yes their writing is not "scripture" and public revelation ended with the last Apostle

Yet you still have the Apocalypse of John in there. What's that about?

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

1197509779[/unixtime]]They speak an entirely different language, so they would have to have a different translation. I am not well informed on what constitutes the eastern orthodox bible, but from little research I just did it seems that that merely have additional books and are not missing anything that the king James version(and derived editions) contains; as long as no information is removed I don't see a real problem.

Perception swap!

And Orthodox Christian reading this thread would say that you are the one reading from a non-divinely inspired bible. Afterall God inspired them to keep the books that the King James version doesn't have.

This is why you don't get to say who is Christian. Everyone who calls themselves Christian believes that they are following Jesus' teachings. You think you're doing it right, so do all of them.

[tzor]

1197535351[/unixtime]]

Yes their writing is not "scripture" and public revelation ended with the last Apostle

Yet you still have the Apocalypse of John in there. What's that about?

OK I'll have to look that up ... Apocalypse of John is in the OoR? Note "their" in that sentence was referring to the writings in the OoR, from the early church fathers, the saints, etc.

[shau]

[counturl=129]On the topic of heretics[/counturl]

Not Rick Roll

[Captain_Bleach]

Back to Dragonlance:
How is it in everybody's best interest for the Cataclysm to happen, including the punishment of the non-Istarans? Well, that's at least what the Gods of Good and Neutrality claim. I don't understand. What is their rationale? Please tell, as even a crappy reason is more informative than no reason.

[Username17]

1197578787[/unixtime]]Back to Dragonlance:
How is it in everybody's best interest for the Cataclysm to happen, including the punishment of the non-Istarans? Well, that's at least what the Gods of Good and Neutrality claim. I don't understand. What is their rationale? Please tell, as even a crappy reason is more informative than no reason.

Mormonism. There's a finite number of people who are allowed to ascend to godhood before the end, so an earlier turnover of the world gives out better positions to the fallen scions of Goodness than does a longer, more peaceful world.

And unfortunately, I'm not kidding.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

But the Dragonlance pantheon has little in common with Mormonism. They're polytheistic. If Hickman wanted to convert gamers like Voss said, he would have just made one Supreme Overlord Monotheistic Deity of Good, with a Deity of Evil as his rival.

[Username17]

1197587385[/unixtime]]But the Dragonlance pantheon has little in common with Mormonism. They're polytheistic. If Hickman wanted to convert gamers like Voss said, he would have just made one Supreme Overlord Monotheistic Deity of Good, with a Deity of Evil as his rival.

Mormonism is not monotheistic. Most Judeo-Christian sects aren't. Islam is really the only monotheistic religion I can think of.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

So what other deities do the Mormons acknowledge, if they really aren't monotheistic? Isn't monotheism also "Sure, there are other Gods, but you HAVE to worship this God, and him/her only!"

[Username17]

1197588645[/unixtime]]So what other deities do the Mormons acknowledge, if they really aren't monotheistic? Isn't monotheism also "Sure, there are other Gods, but you HAVE to worship this God, and him/her only!"

Under Mormonism, if you follow the temple properly in this life your family gets to be elevated to deity status. The patriarch of the family unit gets to be the "Heavenly Father" and his wives get to be servant gods as do his children.

The Mormons believe that Satan is the son of Heavenly Father who is kind of a dick. And that Jesus is the son of Heavenly Father who is really helpful. But they are both divine, and from another planet.

So having a pantheon where there are a lot of gods and goddesses is really truly not even a problem for Mormon theology. Just as it isn't for Jewish theology, as a planet without any Israelites would be expected to have different tribes with their own gods of varying strengths.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

So Frank, compared to the other campaign settings, what do you think of Dragonlance?

[CalibronXXX]

1197550107[/unixtime]]Perception swap!

And Orthodox Christian reading this thread would say that you are the one reading from a non-divinely inspired bible. Afterall God inspired them to keep the books that the King James version doesn't have.

I was going to say that this is certainly a possibility, that the King James version, and derived works, is missing books that are meant to be in The Bible and that being okay since the Eastern Orthodox Church did keep it together properly so that it is available and westerners failure to recognize this could be chalked up to ignorance or stubborn pride.

I was going to say that, but then I remembered a certain resource that provides massive amounts of statistical data that very strongly indicates that the books of the Bible, and only the books of the Bible, were specifically Divinely inspired to be part of the Bible, and that the Bible's original language texts have suffered only a minuscule amount of alteration over the course of the centuries. I'd really like to give details, but that will have to wait until next week, seeing as the book is lent to a friend and I won't be seeing him until Sunday afternoon.

1197550107[/unixtime]]This is why you don't get to say who is Christian. Everyone who calls themselves Christian believes that they are following Jesus' teachings. You think you're doing it right, so do all of them.

Christians that have mildly different beliefs from me don't bother me, we all have imperfect, finite minds and nobody is going to get it exactly right. It's that 90%(figure pulled directly out of ass) of people that identify themselves as Christians, or some denomination there of, do not follow Jesus in any meaningful way beyond going to church a few times a year and saying they believe in God that bothers me; that their behavior flies in the face of everything Christianity stands for and they have no problem with that. Those people aren't Christians regardless of whether they identify themselves as such or not.

[Username17]

1197589344[/unixtime]]So Frank, compared to the other campaign settings, what do you think of Dragonlance?

I have met the authors of the Dragonlance campaign setting in person. Everything you need to know about Tracy and Laura Hickman is that they fucking think Gully Dwarf Jokes are Funny!

Seriously, Laura Hickman puts on this really fake Apalachian accent and talks really slow while doing her Gully Dwarf impersonation. She can barely keep a straight face while doing it and keeps falling out of character. Tracy Hickman will wave his arms and talk about how awesome Kender are.

The comic relief races are insulting. Really, I think you're probably better off with a "meh" campaign setting like Mystarra if you absolutely need to have one.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

1197589743[/unixtime]]

1197589344[/unixtime]]So Frank, compared to the other campaign settings, what do you think of Dragonlance?

I have met the authors of the Dragonlance campaign setting in person. Everything you need to know about Tracy and Laura Hickman is that they fucking think Gully Dwarf Jokes are Funny!

Seriously, Laura Hickman puts on this really fake Apalachian accent and talks really slow while doing her Gully Dwarf impersonation. She can barely keep a straight face while doing it and keeps falling out of character. Tracy Hickman will wave his arms and talk about how awesome Kender are.

The comic relief races are insulting. Really, I think you're probably better off with a "meh" campaign setting like Mystarra if you absolutely need to have one.

-Username17

Not surprised. How do you find it insulting? Are they trying to do an impersonation of you or something?
But what campaign settings out there are better than "meh" in your opinion? How about Kingdoms of Kalamar? The lack of the Wish Economy appeals to me, but the inclusion of spell casters still in the setting irks me.
When I get into "Medieval" RPGs, I don't want to think of all the weird juxtaposition of magic users going all "DBZ" style and getting great gobs of treasure, which if nonmagical, is treated like dirt. That is not what I think of when I think "Medieval Fantasy." I have enough trouble keeping up with a real economy.

[Koumei]

1197576222[/unixtime]]
[counturl=130]On the topic of heretics[/counturl]

Not Rick Roll

That's awesome. Also, I find it hilarious that people now add "Not Rick Roll" just because of me. Note: I won't be Rolling any more (for a while, at least). Because I might want to link to something actually useful one day.

[Captain_Bleach]

1197579614[/unixtime]]
Mormonism. There's a finite number of people who are allowed to ascend to godhood before the end, so an earlier turnover of the world gives out better positions to the fallen scions of Goodness than does a longer, more peaceful world.

And unfortunately, I'm not kidding.

-Username17

One more thing; no mortal in Dragonlance, aside from Raistlin, can become a God. It is almost impossible for even the most powerful of people. If that is the real reason, then why can't anybody in Dragonlance become Gods?

[JonSetanta]

Damn. Gully Dwarves are Appalatch'ns? I hate Dragonlance even more now, even more than its hackneyed villains and fucking Kender.

[Voss]

1197592805[/unixtime]]
One more thing; no mortal in Dragonlance, aside from Raistlin, can become a God. It is almost impossible for even the most powerful of people. If that is the real reason, then why can't anybody in Dragonlance become Gods?

Not sure what the crappy-ass current Dragonlance campaign guide says, but the reason in the old days was that people were capped at 17th level (or something). The gods pretty much came down and said: Mortals shall not be more powerful than THIS.

And Raistlin said: fuck you, I'm a PC, and the coolest D&D book figure until that damn drow with two swords. Except I wimp out at the end for no apparent reason.

(Seriously. For some reason, Raistlin was just immune to the hard cap level limit. Just because.). And with monster hit point totals being what they were (even for gods) in 1st edition, killing them was easy with uncapped spell damage.

Dragonlance also isn't terribly polytheistic anyway. I mean, the gods are there, and it technically is, but at no point in the books do they actually do anything after the brief appearance of the Mommy-figure of healing.

[Draco_Argentum]

1197589508[/unixtime]]I was going to say that, but then I remembered a certain resource that provides massive amounts of statistical data that very strongly indicates that the books of the Bible, and only the books of the Bible, were specifically Divinely inspired to be part of the Bible

Thats an odd thing to have statistical evidence of.