Verbs Vs. Nouns

[DSMatticus]

If your punches are hurting the ghost, either your punches aren't mundane or the ghost isn't incorporeal. There's really not some wriggly middle that you can find if you bury the supernatural elements behind an obscure enough part of speech.

There is lots of wriggly middle. Lots of storytelling happens in that wriggly middle, where some nominally mundane but really "cool" dude kills an army because fuck you that's why. That's difficult to replicate reliably or sensibly, because it's usually author fappery, but it's there and it's really, really old.

Mostly I think we're on different pages. Are we talking about mundane power sources and mundane actions, or mundane capabilities? Because if it's mundane capabilities, there's nowhere to go and nothing to discuss. Your starting premise is that the mundane cannot affect the supernatural. But punching people is a mundane action and training really hard to punch people is a mundane power source, and if training really hard to punch people so that you become the Usain Bolt of punching people allows you to punch ghosts by virtue of your punchiness, that is simply how it works.

There is a legitimate distinction between things that feel and are called mundane (even varies setting by setting) and what actually happens in the real world. For example, people are not impressed by having a giant bag of hitpoints - people do not think hitpoints are magic or even supernatural. Hitpoints are considered a wholly mundane defense by most, even when the results they produce are ridiculous with respect to the capabilities of real world humans. If ghosts existed in the real world (hint: they don't), mundane people could not punch them by training real hard. But ghosts don't actually exist, and we're not talking about the real world, so I'm really not sure how any of that would be relevant.

If there is lava that Usain Bolt can touch without being burned, then other people can also touch that lava without being burned, and therefore, that lava is missing some essential element of lavaness.

Is wearing a fire-retardant suit mundane? If so, then does the fact that a man wearing such a suit can walk through a wall of fire and experience minimal harm mean someone without such a suit can walk through that same wall of fire with minimal harm? You're using lava specifically because it is such an extreme example from the real world that it is essentially binary. But I do want to remind you that the actual property you're referring to without trying to sound like you are referring to (resistance to things that are really hot) is variable for different mundane people employing different mundane tactics, so... thanks, yeah. That's another good one.

[Kaelik]

No, technology is not mundane. Technology is magic. You dumb shit.

No one is talking about mundane capabilities. The point is that the non physicality of ghosts is a fucking feature not a bug. If ghosts are in fact physical, they are less ghost like than we want.

It you can punch a goddam ghost, it had damn well better be because of magic, because otherwise, ghosts are not actually non physical.

There is no fucking wiggle room, there is magical punching, and there is non physical ghosts, and that is all there fucking is.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I think this is just another case where everyone has a different definition of what is being argued over. "Mundane" has at least 5 different definitions that have been articulated over the last week.

However, I will maintain that there is definitely precedent in fiction for situationally physical ghosts.

[Previn]

No, technology is not mundane. Technology is magic.

It you can punch a goddam ghost, it had damn well better be because of magic, because otherwise, ghosts are not actually non physical.

Well, since you don't actually know what ghosts are, it's actually kind of difficult to tell if you could actually punch them or not. In D&D you can't. Maybe ghost are emotions, and if you're emotional enough, or emotionally disciplined enough you can actually punch them, without resorting to magic.

[erik]

Or ghosts are incorporeal to people that fear them and someone fearless would be able to touch em. Or substitute faith for fearlessness. Hell, Aragorn gets to punch ghosts just because of who his momma banged.

If the corporeality is conditional then that's wiggle room, and technology is not necessarily required.

Technology is magic. You dumb shit.

Ahhh, only in the Den could I actually see this making sense.

Everywhere else, I'd think this:

fuckinmagnets.jpg

[edit:] I reckon just the reference is superior to any particular broken image I'd link, wasn't really happy with that pic anyway

[Avoraciopoctules]

Your image doesn't work for me.

EDIT:

No, technology is not mundane. Technology is magic.

[Whatever]

Obviously ghosts are not fully incorporeal. How else are people supposed to have sex with them?

[DSMatticus]

Obviously ghosts are not fully incorporeal. How else are people supposed to have sex with them?

"trained in the Guyana Highlands" is good enough

The sages of the Guyana Highlands have much to teach.

[Soda]

ITT we have to differentiate 'actually mundane' from mundane enough because Kaelik forgot people are usually talking about Mundane Enough.

Punching ghosts is awesome.

[Kaelik]

Well, since you don't actually know what ghosts are, it's actually kind of difficult to tell if you could actually punch them or not. In D&D you can't.

And in your game, you can punch translucent goblins all you want and I don't care, but I specifically said that for me, physical ghosts is just removing aspects of ghosts so that DMF can be a character. And that isn't interesting or cool to me.

Maybe ghost are emotions, and if you're emotional enough, or emotionally disciplined enough you can actually punch them, without resorting to magic.

No, then you are still using magic to punch them, you are just using the ghosts magic. If ghosts can be punched by iron, or emotion, or whatever, then it is the ghosts magic that allows them to not be punched sometimes, and to be punched other times, exactly like when you grab a demon's leg as he flies off, you are not flying, you are grabbing a demon who flies.

ITT we have to differentiate 'actually mundane' from mundane enough because Kaelik forgot people are usually talking about Mundane Enough.

Punching ghosts is awesome.

And don't forget freedom.

Mundane Enough for what you goddam retard? For you to fap? No one cares about how you want to fap to how you are totally capable of punching ghosts without being magical in a world full of magic. If you want to play at the big boy table, have a power source.

[Soda]

No one cares about how you want to fap to how you are totally capable of punching ghosts without being magical in a world full of magic. If you want to play at the big boy table, have a power source.

Exactly. It is a magical world full of magic. How else would beowulf fight sea monsters in the goddamn ocean? He's magically full of magic.

You're saying you want characters to actually be mundane and have diarrhea all the time because that's what people realistically can do? That's never what people talk about when they talk mundane.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Look, Werewolves have an integral ability where they are impervious to injury. If you want to bypass that ability, you have to be holding silver when you try to injure them. There is nothing magical about the ability to hold a silver club.

The same thing goes with ghosts. If your setting says that ghosts are intangible to everything but Cold Iron, holding a fireplace poker does not suddenly make you Merlin the fucking Magician. A completely normal person can do that.

[Kaelik]

You're saying you want characters to actually be mundane and have diarrhea all the time because that's what people realistically can do? That's never what people talk about when they talk mundane.

No you dumb shit, I am saying that punching a fucking ghost with your non magic fists is not cool or interesting, it is punching a physical object, like a demon, or a golem.

Look, Werewolves have an integral ability where they are impervious to injury. If you want to bypass that ability, you have to be holding silver when you try to injure them. There is nothing magical about the ability to hold a silver club.

The same thing goes with ghosts. If your setting says that ghosts are intangible to everything but Cold Iron, holding a fireplace poker does not suddenly make you Merlin the fucking Magician. A completely normal person can do that.

Nor does holding a fireplace poker make you cool or interesting. Werewolves are interesting in part because they are magically weak to silver. Having a silver dagger doesn't make you cool or interesting when you are fighting werewolves any more than having any kind of dagger makes you interesting when fighting people. You can't steal the werewolves awesome with your silver, and you can't steal the ghosts awesome with cold iron, you are still a boring piece of shit character.

[Soda]

No you dumb shit, I am saying that punching a fucking ghost with your non magic fists is not cool or interesting, it is punching a physical object, like a demon, or a golem.

It is cool because not everyone can do it. You're so badass, when you swing your sword, the ethereal plane gets hit too because it's there and nothing can escape you.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Nor does holding a fireplace poker make you cool or interesting. Werewolves are interesting in part because they are magically weak to silver. Having a silver dagger doesn't make you cool or interesting when you are fighting werewolves any more than having any kind of dagger makes you interesting when fighting people. You can't steal the werewolves awesome with your silver, and you can't steal the ghosts awesome with cold iron, you are still a boring piece of shit character.

So fucking what? Your point was that you can't have someone bypass a ghost's incoporeality without magic and I pointed out you can bypass a werewolf's invulnrability without magic so why the fuck not?

You can pull the Hipster card if you want and claim that having a weapon makes a character somehow inherently boring if you want. Your stupid goddamned prejudices are none of my business, but you're still avoiding the goddamned point.

[...You Lost Me]

I still think Kaelik's argument is dumb, but to Desdan's point: A weapon is not a capability. Any schmuck can pick up a silver dagger.

[Previn]

Maybe ghost are emotions, and if you're emotional enough, or emotionally disciplined enough you can actually punch them, without resorting to magic.

No, then you are still using magic to punch them, you are just using the ghosts magic. If ghosts can be punched by iron, or emotion, or whatever, then it is the ghosts magic that allows them to not be punched sometimes, and to be punched other times, exactly like when you grab a demon's leg as he flies off, you are not flying, you are grabbing a demon who flies.

That analogy is completely wrong as to what I said. I get that you personally don't like it, but pretending that just because you said so makes it true or untrue doesn't work. You can't say that punching ghosts has to be a magical thing because 'bad wrong fun' otherwise.

I mean really, you called the ability to craft a sword out of iron/silver, or sharpen a stick, magic. It's kind of hard to have any coherent discussion at that point.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I still think Kaelik's argument is dumb, but to Desdan's point: A weapon is not a capability. Any schmuck can pick up a silver dagger.

This is true, and pretty much my point. If you want Sword Guy to be able to have a meaningful effect on fights with ghosts without breaking the Magic line, then he needs to be able to use lore, like "Ghosts are vulnerable to cold iron".

[Kaelik]

It is cool because not everyone can do it. You're so badass, when you swing your sword, the ethereal plane gets hit too because it's there and nothing can escape you.

If your sword swings are inescapable because you have some goddam magic that makes them so, that is (arguably) cool, but the cool part is the magic, not the sword swinging. If ghosts are just physical objects that can be hit by swords, then it is not cool.

If ghosts are not physical and you can hit them without magic, then A=~A, and you are not worth talking to, because you are just one more in an inescapable pile of dumbshits who throw a fit when their fighter has magic but also want him to keep up with real characters, and your personal solution is to just give him magic and claim it isn't magic.

So fucking what? Your point was that you can't have someone bypass a ghost's incoporeality without magic and I pointed out you can bypass a werewolf's invulnrability without magic so why the fuck not?

Because you are too stupid to read?

I already pointed out, you aren't hurting the Werewolf without magic, you are using the werewolf's magic. Likewise, if you use the ghosts magic to hurt the ghost... great, you are still uninteresting.

You can pull the Hipster card if you want and claim that having a weapon makes a character somehow inherently boring if you want. Your stupid goddamned prejudices are none of my business, but you're still avoiding the goddamned point.

Hey dumbshit, the point is that "punch" is inherently less interesting than a magical verb. That was my actual point in the thread. If you don't have any reason to contradict that, then maybe don't waste my fucking time telling me that I'm wrong, and punch is actually really interesting because as long as the thing you are punching is magical, it is interesting, and you still aren't, and neither is punching.

That analogy is completely wrong as to what I said. I get that you personally don't like it, but pretending that just because you said so makes it true or untrue doesn't work. You can't say that punching ghosts has to be a magical thing because 'bad wrong fun' otherwise.

I mean really, you called the ability to craft a sword out of iron/silver, or sharpen a stick, magic. It's kind of hard to have any coherent discussion at that point.

No you dumb shit, the ability to sharpen a stick is not magic. The ability to stab a stick through a wall of magical "everything but sticks is vaporized by this wall" is magic. Because the wall is fucking magic, and you are taking advantage of the magic properties of a magic wall.

And if you stab a werewolf with a silver weapon, you were only able to hurt it (more than the amount iron would have) because of the magic properties of the magic werewolf.

Cold Iron touching ghosts are magical, and touching a ghost with cold iron is magic, and you are just using the magic of the ghost, which is an uninteresting character.

It is not badwrongfun to say you nonmagically punched a non physical ghost, it is active gibberish.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Here's a hint for you, it'll make things a lot easier for you: There is nothing, NOTHING that makes your character inherently interesting, or inherently uninteresting. So quit fucking worrying about that.

Edit: Also, if you can't tell the difference between being someone who uses a magical fluff to power their abilities and exploiting a weakness in a magical creature, you are a fucking retard.

[Kaelik]

Here's a hint for you, it'll make things a lot easier for you: There is nothing, NOTHING that makes your character inherently interesting, or inherently uninteresting. So quit fucking worrying about that.

Here is a fucking hint:

You are retarded.

1) of course things make characters more or less interesting. That is why some characters are interesting, and others are not.

2) Yes, being mundane makes characters inherently less interesting to me, which is why I fucking said that this was a perfect example of that in my first post in this thread. At the point where you are telling what I do and do not find interesting, you are so far out to stupidville that you have crossed the horizon.

Edit: Also, if you can't tell the difference between being someone who uses a magical fluff to power their abilities and exploiting a weakness in a magical creature, you are a fucking retard.

EDIT: I can tell the difference, one of them is interesting, the other one isn't, and just hopes you get confused and think it is because it is associated with interesting things like Daenerys Targaryen pretending she is a well written character because she is in the same book as well written characters.

[John Magnum]

Is she, Kaelik? Is she really? Keep in mind that you said characters, plural, when evaluating your response.

[Previn]

No you dumb shit, the ability to sharpen a stick is not magic.

No, technology is not mundane. Technology is magic.

Whelp, color me confused.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

1) of course things make characters more or less interesting. That is why some characters are interesting, and others are not.

There is a lot of traits that go into a character to make it interesting, not just skills and powers. History, personality and even the level of interest and affection for the character by the writer and the level of skill the writer or actor portraying that character can serve to make a character more or less interesting depending on the mixture. Even the same character can be boring or interesting when handled by different writers. And on top of that is what the audience brings to it; some people find a particular trait or mix of traits intriguing and others find no interest at all.

There is not one magic tag that you can pin to a character that makes them inherently interesting or not.

2) Yes, being mundane makes characters inherently less interesting to me, which is why I fucking said that this was a perfect example of that in my first post in this thread. At the point where you are telling what I do and do not find interesting, you are so far out to stupidville that you have crossed the horizon.

I can tell the difference, one of them is interesting, the other one isn't, and just hopes you get confused and think it is because it is associated with interesting things like Daenerys Targaryen pretending she is a well written character because she is in the same book as well written characters.

So, despite the fact I've never read the book you're talking about and don't know who this person is, you know for a fact I don't find that character interesting?

[zeruslord]

Kaelik, just get out. People in here are trying to talk about things like Beowulf and Lancelot and all the other mythological literary characters that don't have what their setting labels as Official Magic TM but are nonetheless capable of feats that generic shit-covered peasants aren't, because they are Just That Awesome. There really is a large precedent for people wanting to play a superhuman character without having an explicit in-setting power source, and shitting all over the thread because you personally can't cope with characters that haven't licked the Day-Glo Staff of Magic being supernatural is just pissing everyone off.