Multiclassing and resource management systems.

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Post by Username17 »

Mask_De_H wrote:Hmmm, why not add the railroads in later, then?

As in, you start out all at-will (or whatever is decided for subclasses) for a few levels with the ability grab bag, then once you've claimed enough abilities, you go onto the Railroad Tier and your previous abilities/hat becomes your subclass? It allows for a period of organic growth, gives you the railroad, and creates a hard shift in how the mechanics are viewed (in which you could phase out the accumulation of lower tier abilities). That then acclimates players to mechanical paradigm shifts, which you'd do again in the Logistics and Dragons tier (in expansion material)
For the same reason you wouldn't just let people try to staple whatever set of resource management system they wanted on whatever powers they wanted. The resource management system is part of an ability. It's an integral portion that cannot be changed or altered without making it a completely different ability. Swapping the resource management system back end on an ability is as liable to make sense at the end of the day as making a new spell effect with epic spell seeds.

If your Necromancer works by having Essentia that they distribute between their minions and keeping in reserve to shoot curse blasts at people with, that's fine. But you can't fold that in half-way on a character. Each minion ability they have is not only predicated on having Essentia to be poured into it, but also to have other abilities to compete for that Essentia with. The whole point is that there is a curse blast waiting to use the Essentia the skeletons don't get, but also that the Necromancer actually cares about using their curse blast in the first place. If you just grab these items one piece at a time, it makes as much overall sense as the characters who spent a feat to open a chakra in the Magic of Incarnum book - which is to say: very little.

The other issue of course is that if people want to play a Necromancer, they fucking want to play a Necromancer. And they do not, for example, want to be told that they get to spend the next three months playing a caterpillar who will get to play with the actual necromancy rules at the end of that if the campaign is still going by then.

Basically, the game where you have distinct classes that have different resource management systems and stuff is a game where your classes are not terribly miscible. The game where you have open ability gain and can swap between classes on a lark has very little in the way of resource management other than the haphazard individual limits like how Rage happens arbitrarily three times in a day. And these are both fine games to write and play and they are not the same game.

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Post by tussock »

Basically, the game where you have distinct classes that have different resource management systems and stuff is a game where your classes are not terribly miscible.
I don't really think that's true. It's not the in-game strategies, it's the way you buy them. Given your abilities have to basically support each other; as long as you can pick and choose from the class features you should be able to do that for yourself.

Treat everything like spell slots with a different class (and race) list. Like 4e tried to do only the Fighter's powers are all at-will with just a weapon (and/or stance) component, the Brb powers are mostly immediate response buffs when hit, and the Wizard powers are Wizard spells, which could totally include at-will and short-rest recharges on a per-spell basis (like, Call Lightning works up to once every ten minutes, basically an encounter power; Produce Flame is at-will past a certain level).

The Assassin powers can have a full-round or 3-round or 10-minute casting time and so he's Mr. Setup. The Troll's powers can be an immediate regenerate when hit and a swift rend when the at-will "big claws" power crits, immediate threatening reach.

If you want WOF monsters and classes then some powers need that mechanic, built into the spell. Stance sets, stealth conditionals, drain effects, or whatever can all be on a per-spell basis, and classes list them as thematically appropriate.

And you call them strikes for Fighters, and tricks for Rogues, and spells for Wizards, but they all go in the same level-appropriate slots and having a 2nd class list to fill them with just has some cost structure or another attached, which is cheaper if you have to use higher-level slots for them like Paladins and Rangers do for their spells.
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Post by Username17 »

Tussock wrote:If you want WOF monsters and classes then some powers need that mechanic, built into the spell. Stance sets, stealth conditionals, drain effects, or whatever can all be on a per-spell basis, and classes list them as thematically appropriate.

And you call them strikes for Fighters, and tricks for Rogues, and spells for Wizards, but they all go in the same level-appropriate slots and having a 2nd class list to fill them with just has some cost structure or another attached, which is cheaper if you have to use higher-level slots for them like Paladins and Rangers do for their spells.
No deal.

If you give everyone "level appropriate slots" and the players get to choose abilities off different lists with different resource management systems attached... everyone is going to end up looking the same. Because having two powers that are ramped up by your Rage Bar is obviously less useful than having one that does that and another that can be used at the start of battle whilst your Rage Bar is empty.

So every character is going to be heavily scripted. More heavily scripted than a 4e character is, because they aren't just using their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd abilities in that order out of habit (and because it works, so there's no pressing reason to change), they're keeping that order because the resource management system overlaps actually force you to do so. Every battle you use the Cool-Down ability, then you use the once/Encounter ability, then you use the Rage Bar ability, then you use the Cool-Down ability because it's active again. Every battle, because you have to do that.

And the scripts aren't just going to be mandatory because of your character's build. They are going to be super obviously better than having a bunch of abilities that run off the same resources. And people will feel forced to make builds that force them into scripts! People will literally ask you "What's your character's 'opener'?" because it will be so obvious that your character is going to be a mishmash of powers from different nominal resource management systems and themes that what they'll really want to know is what the fuck the script your character is locked into does. Is it a Tekken Juggle based on a series of stunlocks and pushes? Is it a Damage Engine of ever bigger attacks to power up even bigger attacks? is it a Hammer & Anvil where you go on the defensive for a couple of rounds while your finishing move comes online? Is it a Baton Pass, where you give big buffs to the rest of the party?

And you'll answer what kind of script you're running, because that will be the actually important information. And you sure as fuck won't tell people that you're a Scout or a Paladin or some fucking thing, because that kind of information won't be worth fuckall.

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Post by OgreBattle »

What if you took a point buy system, lumped up the various categories to put your points in under 'classes', and then counted up the number of circles you squiggled in as 'levels' and declared it your awesome multiclassing system?
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Then you're doing the FFT multiclassing thing, OgreBattle.
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Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
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Post by BearsAreBrown »

Would it be that bad if you just had two systems? If we use Lago's Major/Minor class system and add rider bonuses to bad class combos? Or is the fear that it would be too scripted?
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Post by Mask_De_H »

BearsAreBrown wrote:Would it be that bad if you just had two systems? If we use Lago's Major/Minor class system and add rider bonuses to bad class combos? Or is the fear that it would be too scripted?
What do you mean by two systems? From your second sentence, I'm guessing you're asking if characters should have multiple resource management systems. Rider bonuses wouldn't help the anti-synergy of Setup and Drain or personal Rage Bar and Necrocarnum, and having to balance 169 management schemes is harder than just balancing 13.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
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Post by Username17 »

Yeah, pretty much what Mask just said. Imagine for the moment that you had the following classes:
10KF, Classes wrote:
The Assassin

"He is a man who would be greatly improved by death."


Precision
An Assassin's special maneuvers require delicate placement and precise timing. In order to gain the precision required they must spend a certain amount of time aiming, plotting, and gauging possibilities. The action is called "plotting", and can be of variable length. An Assassin may spend a minor, move, or full-round action plotting to build up precision against a single specific target they can see (or otherwise perceive), after which they may use any of their maneuvers that have that much precision minimum or less. The plotting action can be combined with drawing or loading a weapon, but not with moving. Crossbows and poison use are popular among Assassins in no small part because they can spend a move action plotting while still loading their weapon. An Assassin who targets any other creature than the target of their plot loses any built-up precision. If an Assassin has precision against a target and that target leaves their line of sight, all the precision is lost.
The Berserker

"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living."

Fury
A Berserker fights by drawing upon deep reserves of strength, which are chaneled through pain, fear, and rage. As the Berserker takes damage or attacks foes, they gain fury. The Berserker can then spend their fury to activate their abilities. Fury is physically exhausting, and whenever a Berserker gains even one point of fury they will become fatigued five minutes later, whether they still have that fury or not.
Cleric

"I speak for powers that be. If thou resistesth me, thou resisteth them."

Patience
A Cleric's magic is drawn from sources mystical and ancient. They may be gods or vestiges of ideals and titans long forgotten. But whatever the source, it is a source that does not have limitless patience for a Cleric's requests for aid. Whenever a Clerical prayer invokes a magical effect, that prayer cannot be used for a certain amount of time afterward. The patience limit is different for different prayers, and how recently one prayer has been used does not affect how long another one will become unusable after it is next called upon.
The Druid

"When we have learned to listen to trees, to mountains, to the sky itself, we will have learned to listen to ourselves."

Spirits
Druids have special relationships with totemic spirits. Each spirit represents some totemic ideal such as "Oak" or "Thunder". When a Druid calls to the spirits as a minor action, one of them will answer. Which one answers is randomly determined from among those that the Druid has a pact with each call. Each spirit has powers that it makes available to the Druid until the beginning of the Druid's next turn. As a Druid rises in level, the powers that each totem spirit provide are enhanced.
The Elementalist

"There is not anything that returns to nothing, but all things dissolved into their elements."

Channeling
Every Elementalist draws power from two elements, but the strength of their connection to these forces ebbs and flows. The process of attempting to get as much elemental power as possible is called channeling. Each turn, an Elementalist may spend a minor action to channel, and in doing so rolls one die for each of their elements (either rolled in sequence or rolling dice of two different colors to represent the two elements). At first level, those dice are d4s, but as Elementalists become more powerful they roll larger dice. An Elementalist rolls a d6 for each element at level 3, a d8 for each element at level 5, a d10 for each element at level 7, and a d12 for each element at level 9. Powers within an element are ordered and can be activated only if the Elementalist has channeled enough power in that element on that round. If an Elementalist of Fire and Air channels a 2 for Fire and a 3 for Air, they may activate an Air power of rank 3 or less and activate a Fire power of rank 1 or 2.

If an Elementalist elects not to channel on a turn, they may still use rank 1 powers of their elements. Elementalists may channel while they are not in combat, and by taking ten rounds to channel, may guaranty a maximum result, allowing them to use any power available to them given time.

The Elements
Understanding the ways of magic and the formation of the universe is notoriously difficult and is often considered to be amongst the "big questions" that will never truly be answered. At different times in history, schools of thought have pinned the number of elements at four or five, differing markedly as to what those were. Current magical theory includes space for seven elements, merely collecting all the non-overlapping elements from the magical books of fallen empires and ancient cities. There is no reason to believe that future elementalists will not discover more.
The Enchanter

"There are those who call me..."

Discharge
An Enchanters magic is imbued into objects or people over a period of several minutes. While a spell is charged into something it provides an ongoing benefit. A charged sword might make the wielder slightly stronger or a charged belt might make the wielder slightly tougher, for example. When an enchanter sets up a charge, they choose a buff effect and a spell effect. At a later point in time, an Enchanter may discharge their spell into something in line of sight of the charged item by spending a standard action while they are within line of sight of the charge (both the Enchanter and the target must be in line of sight of the charged item, but they need not be in line of sight of each other). When the spell is discharged, it takes effect but the item is no longer charged and no longer provides any special benefit. As an Enchanter goes up in level, the number of charges they may have going simultaneously increases.
The Hero

"The people who we fight have heroes of their own. Let's hope ours are better."


Feats
A Hero's feats can be used at any time, any number of times, and in any order. Any feat the Hero has learned can be used at will.
The Illusionist

"Of course it's an illusion. What good does that knowledge do you?"

Spell Preparation
An Illusionist can prepare a number of spells into their spell slots by spending five minutes with a spell book getting their tricks ready. Each spell can be used once before the next time the Illusionist prepares spells.
The Marshal

"Victory requires no explanation. Defeat allows none."

Tide of Battle
A Marshal is at their best when they see an opportunity and seize it. During the swirl of melee or the clashing of arms, it is virtually impossible to predict what opportunities might arise. Maybe an ogre will stumble out of position, allowing an ally to slip behind it if the opening is called to their attention, maybe an ally will be in harm's way of the ogre's hammer unless a timely warning is called out. A Marshal could give any orders, shout any warnings, offer the most fascile of advice. But the actual battle orders that will make a difference are entirely situational. Each turn of a battle (or other perilous situation where initiative has been rolled), a Marshal's player will randomly generate which Battle Orders are potentially useful that round at the beginning of their turn. At first level, generate a Warning, one Tactic, and one War Cry each turn. A higher level Marshal has more options at their disposal each turn. Outside of combats, Marshals may not use their Battle Orders, though they may still use Strategems.

The Monk

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."


Styles
Consumate martial artists, Monks practice many forms and have several fighting styles available to them. Each style a Monk knows has associated maneuvers within it that can be used once while the style is being used. At the start of battle, a Monk may begin fighting in a specific style as a free action in their first turn, but thereafter changing or adopting a style is a full round action. A Monk is free to "change" their style into the same fighting style they were already using in order to be able to reuse maneuvers in the same combat - this represents the character adjusting their fighting style to match their opponents' adapting to the moves they've already used. Monks are fully capable of using their fighting styles outside of combat if they want to use their combat maneuvers in another context.
The Necromancer

"Life flows through all things. Where it flowed in the past, it can flow again."


Essence
A Necromancer powers their magic and imbues their minions with their own life essence. Any minion or magical power has a minimum amount of essence to function at all. If insufficient essence is placed into a power it cannot be activated and its ongoing effects are nullified until sufficient essence is placed into it again. If a necromantic minion has insufficient essence to power it, it cannot act until it gets enough essence again and is helpless in the meantime. Essence beyond the minimum can be assigned to powers and minions up to a maximum total increase in any one equal to the Necromancer's level. The Necromancer's pool can be redistributed once per round as a minor action. As a Necromancer rises in level, they have a larger pool of essence to distribute. When the Necromancer is wounded (half hit points), they lose a quarter of their essence, which if they have already allocated their essence is lost from the Necromancer's powers and minions. Lost essence returns (unallocated) if they are no longer wounded. If a Necromancer is incapacitated (zero hit points) or killed, they lose another quarter of their essence. Any minions still active after a Necromancer is slain go on an uncontrolled rampage.
The Paladin

"Courage is the greatest virtue. It allows you to stand up for all the others."


Inspiration
Paladins often throw themselves into battle with nary a heed to the consequences, because they have a purpose which is larger than they are. Though a Paladin can use their abilities an unlimited number of times per day, they have a limited number of abilities that are "ready" at any given time. Further, the Paladin relies upon the flash of divine or fanatical inspiration in battle and does not have full control over what abilities can be used at any given moment. The Paladin can change what maneuvers they have readied with five minutes of prayer and planning, but each round the Paladin randomly determines which abilities are "available" from among their readied abilities. The abilities are determined randomly at the beginning of the Paladin's turn, and continue to be available until the beginning of the character's next turn.

The Psion

"In the long run, the sword is always beaten by the mind."


Power
A Psion has a number of power points which rises as they go up in level. Manifesting a psionic discipline costs a number of power points. More potent disciplines cost more and weaker disciplines cost less. Some psionic disciplines can be manifested to a greater effect in exchange for a higher psionic point cost. For example: every target past the first affected by Nightmare World increases the power point cost. A Psion regains power points over time (1/10th of their total every minute).
The Rogue

"You have taken the bait. This is already over."

Catches
A Rogue's tricks require susceptible targets. While there is no specific limit to how often a Rogue can use their abilities, each trick has a set of requirements for when it can be used at all. These requirements are collectively called catches. If a trick's catches have been fulfilled, that ability can be used. Some tricks have multiple catches connected by "and" or "or". These are importantly different! For example: the fundamental trick "Sneak Attack" that all Rogue's have has as its catches that the proposed target must be either be flanked or impaired or be unable to detect the Rogue. If any of these three conditions are met, the Rogue can use Sneak Attack against that target. On the other hand, the defensive trick "Misdirection" has as its catches that the Rogue be threatening an enemy and be being attacked by a different enemy. In order to use Misdirection, the Rogue must fulfill both catches at the same time.
Sorcerer

"All things are linked."

Backlash
When a Sorcerer casts spells they risk being hurt by backlash. Every Sorcerer spell has a backlash number, and when a Sorcerer casts it they roll their resistance. Every point their resistance roll falls short of the backlash number, the Sorcerer takes a point of damage. Some of a Sorcerer's spells can be cast for greater effect in exchange for a higher backlash number. For example: every additional target past the first adds to the risked backlash of Chain Lightning.
The Warlock

"Everyone knows that power has a price. But I know what that price is."

Price
A Warlock's most powerful magic drains their own life energy in order to use it. A Warlock can use their cantrips and minor invocations without fear, but to use their major arcana requires that they pay a price. The prices of each major arcana are listed
The Wizard

"It's only real magic if it's still magic after you've seen how it is done."

Spell Memorization
A Wizard has a number of spell slots that they can fill with individual spells by spending an hour pouring over their spellbook. Once a spell is memorized into one of their spell slots, it can be cast an unlimited number of times until the next time the Wizard memorizes spells.
Now you have 17 different resource management systems. Some are pretty similar to one another, and others are really different. But 17 is a number you could potentially give an honest playtest to. Maybe you'd skimp on it, but it's certainly possible. But if you had people pick two? Now you're talking 272 different resource management system overlaps to think about (136 if we're doing AD&D-style multiclassing and the "order" doesn't matter). There's no fucking way you're going to be able to playtest all that shit. I mean, just on first principles I would expect the Berserker to synergize really well with the Cleric's Patience (pray until the spirits don't want to hear from you and then spend the fury you've built up on beating the crap out of people until your prayers come back online) and the Hero to synergize really well with the Elementalist (gamble on a good channeling roll and if it doesn't work out, default to a guaranteed feat effect). But without playtesting I couldn't begin to tell you which is better to layer in as the "dominant" class.

And we haven't even gotten to the "what if we also include slightly different versions for monsters?" question. I mean, if Lurkers also run tricks that have catches to activate, that's pretty much a Rogue. But presumably they'll have different actual abilities so when the it comes down to brass tacks the fact that you might want to be a Doppleganger Berserker or a Night Hag Cleric is another 34 combinations to consider. And another 34 to consider when you mix Controllers with classes because you wanted to be a Vampire Rogue or a Succubus Paladin (even if Controllers use an essentially similar cool-down mechanic to the Cleric).

Probably the best way to do it is to have the sub-class give everything on the same simple resource system no matter what the subclass actually is. And yeah, that means that if you sub-Necromancer you don't actually get to supercharge your skeletons. Because if you mix-n-match actual resource management systems for multiclass characters you're stuck with quadratic growth of fundamental resource management systems, and that's just too complicated to really playtest.

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Post by DrPraetor »

FrankTrollman wrote:you wouldn't just let people try to staple whatever set of resource management system they wanted on whatever powers they wanted.
Sure you would. If you use the Rage Bar mechanic, then as a Necromancer/Barbarian you have a single pool which is both your Rage and your Thanosis, and it your undead kill living enemies or if you smash something with an axe or if you get stabbed, it starts to fill up, and then you can either turn into a bear whirlwind or shoot poison bone shards at people, as you prefer. If you had chosen a fixed Essentia reservoir instead, that Essentia reservoir would also be your "Reserves of Anger" which enable you to turn into a bear some fixed number of times per mission.
The resource management system is part of an ability. It's an integral portion that cannot be changed or altered without making it a completely different ability. Swapping the resource management system back end on an ability is as liable to make sense at the end of the day as making a new spell effect with epic spell seeds.
The perfect is the enemy of the good. I think people will tremendously prefer a system which breaks SoD slightly in places (you chose "cool down" as your mechanic, so you don't get to pray for Mjolnir's fury *or* hamstring a dude for two combat rounds!) but which cleanly enables some mixing and matching of abilities from different lists.
The other issue of course is that if people want to play a Necromancer, they fucking want to play a Necromancer. And they do not, for example, want to be told that they get to spend the next three months playing a caterpillar who will get to play with the actual necromancy rules at the end of that if the campaign is still going by then.
Well that is certainly true.
The game where you have open ability gain and can swap between classes on a lark has very little in the way of resource management other than the haphazard individual limits like how Rage happens arbitrarily three times in a day. And these are both fine games to write and play and they are not the same game.
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To reiterate what I said above: I think that you can have a middle ground, where you have a single common pool of resource management, but that pool of resource management can be dialed independently from which lists you get abilities off of. More importantly, I think this could result in a very cool game which people would like.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

You're going to have to write a fuckload of abilities for this kind of game. Like WoF Fantasy Kitchen Sink levels. And different classes are going to have different thresholds for how many abilities need to be made for them.

How do we prevent option paralysis and the jealousy of plenty in chargen with this kind of setup?
Last edited by Mask_De_H on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
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Post by DrPraetor »

Well, take a step back and consider this abstractly. We have a diverse hodgepodge of stuff, which you might have in different combinations. How are you going to value those combinations? Some are going to be more synergistic (better) than others but we don't need to be perfectly fair, we just need some common medium of exchange. Obviously someone who has rice is more likely to be tomatoes and less likely to buy pasta; this is not regarded as a major problem for the use of money. I apologize for the inside joke: Frank, we need currency. You're in the Czech republic, get me some.

First, let's call them maneuvers rather than abilities. These are things you choose to do in a round of the combat minigame; your broader universe of abilities may or may not interact with the resource management for your maneuvers. I suggest that they shouldn't.

You give each maneuver a level. You might also give each ability a "commonality" or something, if you wanted to get fancy.

So for example, "Bear Whirlwind" is 4th level. Also, "Toxic Bone Spear" is 4th level. This means that the two maneuvers interact with the resource management system in exactly the same way.

They also do more or less the same thing regardless of which resource management system you choose for your character.

From that basic schema you can introduce whatever variations you want. Some abilities can be hacked or handwaived to perform differently under different resource management schemes. I'd prefer to avoid this myself but if done with restraint it's not going to sink the ship.

Different resource management schemes can and probably should interact differently with the different classes. Anyone can have a rage meter, different classes have different rules by which the rage meter fills up. People with a fixed budget of power points might have some abilities that give them power points back (but this would have to be carefully balanced). And so forth.

Obviously it is somewhat more work than Frank's 17Classes/17Accountings schema. But with a few more jiggers (like getting the price point for diversity vs. bigger #s right) it allows more-or-less open multiclassing without the wheels falling off and exploding, so I think it's worth it.
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Post by Username17 »

DrP wrote:Sure you would. If you use the Rage Bar mechanic, then as a Necromancer/Barbarian you have a single pool which is both your Rage and your Thanosis, and it your undead kill living enemies or if you smash something with an axe or if you get stabbed, it starts to fill up, and then you can either turn into a bear whirlwind or shoot poison bone shards at people, as you prefer. If you had chosen a fixed Essentia reservoir instead, that Essentia reservoir would also be your "Reserves of Anger" which enable you to turn into a bear some fixed number of times per mission.
You've already failed. The Necromancer life essence doesn't ration daily abilities at all. It rations how powerful individual parts of the Necromancer's army are from moment to moment. It's like Focus in War Machine, so if you try to make it ration how many times per day you turn into a bear, you've already pissed in the Cheerios. Seriously, you just talked how many times per day you can transform into a bear this round. How did you not see how little sense that made?

The Paladin has a deck that he prunes down before battle and then draws options on a round by round basis. The Hero simply gets all his stuff all the time. The Paladin needs a lot more abilities known in order to make his system make sense than the Hero does. But more than that, things that make sense in the Paladin's deck simply don't make sense in the Hero's repertoire and vice versa.

Imagine an ability where you just parry a melee attack or block a fire blast outright. If that happens from time to time, it's awesome. It's a useful and blatant defensive ability. But if it happens every round it's just a frustrating and slow as fuck GTFO ability. In the hands of the Paladin, it's fine. It doesn't need a roll or anything, because the very fact that it's being drawn out of the deck and taking a slot that could have been an attack or heal means that it won't be around to protect you every round and isn't "free" even when it does. But as one of the Hero's feats? Fuck that! The Hero just sets a feat slot on fire and he is just hard immune to whatever he can parry? No fucking way. It would need like a die roll or something to keep it from being a no-fun-ban-hammer on incoming attacks.

Now let's consider people who have things in slots. The Elementalist and the Warlock have abilities that are overpowered. The Elementalist can have some pretty damn sweet abilities in his "six" slot, because more than two turns out of three a third level Elementalist is going to be unable to use any of them and have to settle for a weaker power. 44% of the time he'll have to settle on a power that was available at first level. Meanwhile, the Warlock's Major Arcana actually hurt him to use. So his Arcana not only can, but should be better than actions other people take. Or to take an even more ridiculous example: the Illusionist and the Wizard both take spells out of their spellbook and put them into their spell slots. But when the Wizard casts his spell, he can cast it again the next turn and when the Illusionist casts his spell he fucking can't. Obviously there has to be a power tradeoff there.

The only way you could possibly hope to get these frameworks to trade powers back and forth is to put absolutely everything on a GURPS-style point system. Once you had the cost multiples to your satisfaction for the difference between an expendable slot, a continuous slot, a randomly available slot, a conditional slot, and a renewable slot, then "all" you'd have to do is writeup all your powers with the associated and necessary adjustments for how their utility varied in the different types of slots (self-synergy and multi-step combos are much less effective in randomized slots, stunlocks are downright overpowered in continuous slots, and so on) with the appropriate cost changes for that, and then you'd need some sort of rubric to determine how many points peoples' different kinds of slots could be worth based on their power level. And I'm probably missing some important steps, but it doesn't really matter because you are not ever going to fucking do that.

And you know why? Because this "how to cost an ability absent a context for what it is going to be used with and for and even what resource management framework it's going to be filed under" problem is a really big and really old RPG problem. It's the GURPS problem. It's the Champions problem. And while Champions certainly has a place in my heart, I don't think that anyone is confused that their point system isn't horrendously abusable. Simply put: the "figure out a value relationship between powers in an abstract context and then allow people to reverse engineer whatever characters they want" concept is really old. That was pretty much what game design aspired to in the eighties. People have been working on this problem for thirty years and they are exactly as close today as when the project was started. The problem is NP-Hard if it is solvable at all, which it honestly might not be.

Many of the problems of multiclassing are simply extremely difficult. I mean, you physically could playtest hundreds of character class combinations and report back which ones synergized better or worse than average and fudge some modifiers and caveats to balance them out to within an acceptable range. That is way too much work, but it is physically possible. Writing abilities that can function in a balanced fashion under different resource systems, sight unseen? No fucking way. We're talking about a task that is literally beyond the capabilities of any possible number of playtesting gamer nerds with unlimited pizza and mountain dew to complete.

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Post by Kaelik »

DrPraetor wrote: Sure you would. If you use the Rage Bar mechanic, then as a Necromancer/Barbarian you have a single pool which is both your Rage and your Thanosis, and it your undead kill living enemies or if you smash something with an axe or if you get stabbed, it starts to fill up, and then you can either turn into a bear whirlwind or shoot poison bone shards at people, as you prefer. If you had chosen a fixed Essentia reservoir instead, that Essentia reservoir would also be your "Reserves of Anger" which enable you to turn into a bear some fixed number of times per mission.
Ignoring for the moment that Frank is correct, and you clearly don't understand how Necromancer Essentia even works, the more important thing you are missing is how the Necromancers minions work:

Necromancer minions cost Essentia. So if you could hypothetically choose to be a Necromancer on Rage you never would, because you aren't allowed to have any minions at all until after your minions have punched people or you have. So you start with no minions at all.

That is stupid, and your attempt to solve completely different resource systems is stupid, but mostly for the reason Frank said, which is that of course everyone would just choose one class with daily abilities, and another class with the at will resource mechanic, and then they would have daily abilities that are clearly more powerful at will.
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Post by DrPraetor »

[EDITED HOPEFULLY QUICKLY]

Kaelik - under my proposal, each character has a single resource management system. You don't have the option of using a different resource scheme for your different classes.

It's not that I don't understand how necromancer Essentia works - it's that I don't care and neither does anyone else. Necromancers want to have some skeletons following them around and they want to be able to do cool stuff with death energy to make them more bad-ass. The details are completely negotiable.

Frank, now you're being deliberately obtuse - there are several ways you could handle it, any of which could work.

First, you could have a dedicated power point reserve - which pays for both bear whirlwind and poison bone spear. You could either make that power point reserve smaller (if you have undead), or you could spend points from that power reserve to get undead on the fly.

Second, you could have a rage meter - which pays for both bear whirlwind and poison bone spear. You want to trade some rage meter for having more undead - you could do things that way. Alternatively, maybe you want to be able to spend rage meter to get undead on the fly - that would work. Finally, you could have power-ups for the undead which you get as free actions for rage meter, alternatvely you can spend rage meter to hurl poison spears around or turn into a bear.

None of these options would be terribly hard to balance for one or two classes - and you have some common pricing scheme for the other classes (again, some common medium of exchange for all the various stuff), tested with partial overlap on different resource management schemes, it should work out well enough.

People want fixed classes, but they also want more options than you can reasonably test. Any RPG that meets your criteria - that all the meaningfully distinct options can be tested before release so we know they are balanced - is going to offer too few options to satisfy people. Full stop.
Last edited by DrPraetor on Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

DrP wrote:Frank, now you're being deliberately obtuse - there are several ways you could handle it, any of which could work.

First, you could have a dedicated power point reserve - which pays for both bear whirlwind and poison bone spear. You could either make that power point reserve smaller (if you have undead), or you could spend points from that power reserve to get undead on the fly.

Second, you could have a rage meter - which pays for both bear whirlwind and poison bone spear. You want to trade some rage meter for having more undead - you could do things that way. Alternatively, maybe you want to be able to spend rage meter to get undead on the fly - that would work. Finally, you could have power-ups for the undead which you get as free actions for rage meter, alternatvely you can spend rage meter to hurl poison spears around or turn into a bear.
No I'm not being deliberately obtuse. Neither of those things work. Like, at all.

The Rage Bar doesn't exist until you start punching people and getting punched. And the points in it cease to exist when they are spent in order to do stuff.

The Essence Pool is continuous. Things are allocated to one pile or another, but they are always there. That is a prerequisite for having your minions running around doing shit, and similarly not fucking doing that is a prerequisite for being a meaningful limiter on how often you can do super whirling death frenzy attacks.

It's actually a perfect example of why your proposal can't ever work. The Essence Pool doesn't limit how many times in a row you can use your attacks, and the Fury Pool does. That is why abilities physically can't be transferred from one to the other without fundamentally changing how they interact with the absolutely everything of the game.

Basically, you're making the "we should make a perfect universal system" argument that was totally reasonable sounding when we were 10. But honestly, the last couple of decades should have convinced you that this a dog that will not in fact hunt. It is a problem that is at least NP-Hard and neither you nor I nor any other person in our lifetime is ever going to solve it. Universal systems do not deliver, because solving the underlying inequalities is beyond the amount of processing time we have left before the Sun itself grows cold and dark.

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Post by Mask_De_H »

DrPraetor wrote: People want fixed classes, but they also want more options than you can reasonably test. Any RPG that meets your criteria - that all the meaningfully distinct options can be tested before release so we know they are balanced - is going to offer too few options to satisfy people. Full stop.
The whole post shows you continuously seem to be missing the point of this entire exercise, but this portion is just amazingly dumb. I guess very contemporary TTRPG (that isn't D&D) and competitive cRPG/MMORPG/DOTAclones don't satisfy people, huh?

You are wrong, and quite possibly retarded. Full stop.
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Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
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Post by Mistborn »

We do not have to achive perfect balance in order to have a good game. In fact a segment of the player base actually want's imbalance. These are our minmaxers, to them being able to staple stuff from class A class B and class C together to make something mindblowing is a feature not a bug.

When I read people posts on this forum I often fear we let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you write as system where all the classes are roughly on the same level and you have a multiclassing system that delivers on the major multiclassing options that people want (fighter/mage mostly). That would be miles better than what's out there now.
Last edited by Mistborn on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by BearsAreBrown »

@DP, your solution to multiple resource symbols is to not have them?
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Lord Mistborn wrote:If you write as system where all the classes are roughly on the same level and you have a multiclassing system that delivers on the major multiclassing options that people want (fighter/mage mostly). That would be miles better than what's out there now.
Yes, that's what balance is, LM. You get a cookie for figuring out the obvious.

If things are on roughly the same level, they are balanced against each other. Playtesting helps to ensure that happens. It's impossible to get perfect balance, but you can damn sure make things functional with a little bit of work.

@BAB: Pretty much. Well, it's more "strip out the symbols, smash everything all together and then add the symbols back in somehow"
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K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
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Post by Kaelik »

DrPraetor wrote:Kaelik - under my proposal, each character has a single resource management system. You don't have the option of using a different resource scheme for your different classes.

It's not that I don't understand how necromancer Essentia works - it's that I don't care and neither does anyone else. Necromancers want to have some skeletons following them around and they want to be able to do cool stuff with death energy to make them more bad-ass. The details are completely negotiable.
1) It is that you don't understand how essentia works, that is why when you suggested that a Barb/Necro would use Essentia to power his whirling Frenzies you missed the fact that this gives him an infinite number of whirling frenzies that are too powerful to used infinitely.

2) It is also that you do not understand Necro minions, you suggested that you could make a Barb sub class and a Necro sub class, and then have someone who wants to be a Barb/Necro pick either to use essentia or rage. But that is stupid and wrong because if they choose essentia, then they get infinite uses of whirling Frenzies that are more powerful than infinite use attacks, because they are made on a limited use schedule, or they could choose Rage meter, in which case they would never ever get to use minions at all.

The only way you could create a balanced multiclass system under your supposed "each charaacter has a resource system" idea is to write 13 classes for each class, so that you have one set of Barb powers for Rage meter, and one set for Essentia, and one set for daily, ect.

And that is frankly, stupid, because writing 13 completely different versions of the Barb class takes the same amount of work as just writing 13 classes, but it doesn't add any flavor, and in fact, strips it from the game.
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Post by DrPraetor »

MDH - if people wanted to play Warhammer online, or Talisman, or War Machine, or Chronopia, or the like, they would, can an do - but none of these are D&D, to be blunt. In order to be meaningfully satisfying as a TTRPG, the character generation system needs to be significantly open-ended.

Frank - no, that is not the argument we're having. We're having the argument we had when we were 20, about how resource management in After Sundown should work. I'm not arguing for a universal system - but I am arguing for a single system to govern the use of abilities IN ONE GAME.

Except, we didn't actually have this argument because you didn't argue that it would be a better game if every monster was a special steve with their own resource management mechanics! The parallel-universe Frank who made that argument produced an incoherent hodge-podge of a monster squad game, but he has an MBA and lives in alternate-Palo Alto, so it balances out.

If you wanted to make a game: Necromancer, the hand and the shroud. Then, you would have an excuse to go nuts with Necromancer-specific resource mechanics which were different from a Demonologists imps; hell, binding ghosts/souls with your WILL could be an entirely different resource track from how many/how cool where the corporeal undead you had shuffling around. But in a basic fantasy heartbreaker this isn't going to fly.

Now, the specific argument you are making is that it is unpossible to make a system in which you both have a rage meter, and can trade the ability to make use of abilities off of that rage meter for having more followers, yes? Best counter-argument for that is by contradiction.
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Post by Mistborn »

Mask_De_H wrote:Yes, that's what balance is, LM. You get a cookie for figuring out the obvious.
You misread my point you can make abilites/classes that are all relatively balanced. What you can not do is make every conceivable combination of abilities balance with every other combination. 4e powers are limited as all hell and people still found ways to make infinite loops with them and what we're proposing is way more complex than 4e.

I'll say it before and I'll say it again if people can slap together a bunch of your stuff togerther to make something mind blowing that you didn't expect then you're being too timid when you write crunch.
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Post by OgreBattle »

In this system I'm assuming the monsters also use the same diverse recharge mechanics?
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Post by Libertad »

Just curious, but do DrPraetor and Frank personally know each other? Because Praetor speaks of Frank like he interacted with him face to face several times.
Last edited by Libertad on Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

DrPraetor wrote:Now, the specific argument you are making is that it is unpossible to make a system in which you both have a rage meter, and can trade the ability to make use of abilities off of that rage meter for having more followers, yes? Best counter-argument for that is by contradiction.
No, the argument he is making is that it is unpossible to make multiple sub classes, IE, Barb/Necro/Wizard/Illusionist/Rogue/Hero, and have it be even remotely balanced for you to take Barb abilities, and use them on any resource mechanic you want.

IE, Barb/Necros exist.

Barb/Heros exist.

Now, either all Barbs have all Barb abilities on Rage (in which case, the other problem, where everyone takes Barb/Cleric as the best multi) or Bar uses whatever your other resource mechanic is, in which case, Barb abilities are too strong when used on some resource systems and not one others.

It is not possible to make a set of abilities that are balanced when used on any possible resource system.
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