Gish-esq Feat

[Red_Rob]

By making it a feat you automatically allow it to combine in lots of unhealthy ways with the existing ways to be a Gish. A better option would be to make it an alternate class feature for a Wizard, or a class of some kind. Like people have been saying.

Also, the way you say "all you gain is one lost caster level and one level of BaB" makes me think you are undervaluing these things. In Tome, one level of BaB allows you to not only get additional attacks earlier and qualify for prestige classes and stuff, you also get feat abilities (effectively additional feats) earlier, gain the Edge (effectively even more feats) against more enemies, and can move at full speed in heavy armor earlier. Frank and K intentionally made 1 BaB point worth a fair bit, because a lot of the time that's all a Warrior has over the other classes.

[BearsAreBrown]

Why should this feat exist?

What does it allow you to do better then existing feats?

[Chamomile]

Granted, my misreading of what you were doing with spell storing was kind of odd and I don't know why I read it that way in retrospect (I guess it was pretty late). That said, the spell storing thing was one sentence and half a footnote; there was a lot more in my post other than just that which you've been happily ignoring. I didn't say that it was bad that only casters are going to take the feat, I said that given only casters are taking the feat why are we giving them a higher effective caster level? Especially considering it can't exceed hit dice, which makes it essentially guaranteed that no caster will ever actually benefit from this feat, since no caster in their right mind would ever trade spellcasting for anything else, ever.

There's one part of this that a viable caster cares about, and that's a free +2 to BAB. Because letting the Wizard have all of the Fighter's tricks for the first 4 levels is apparently a good idea? Any feat that starts with "I think I need to give the Wizard some of the martial classes tricks in exchange for no sacrifice of power at all" is doomed to be imbalanced in favor of the caster. Whereas any feat that starts with "you need to sacrifice some of your class features to take this feat" is doomed to never be taken.

You want a gish-esque thing, make a class. A feat cannot do this job.

[Giraffeking]

@Red, rather than being earlier, it is at the same time as others. As far as the way I said it, I guess that is because I do possibly under value one BaB. Is an entire feat slot worth it? From most feats you get a string of new skills, but if a pure caster took this, all they would do is get some skills a little earlier than others. A 20th level caster would have one more attack itteration, but would still be way behind a fighter. At lower levels this feat is probably over powered, and so I can see it needing to be a feat set at, say, prereq level 8 or something. But a warrior still have lots more BaB than a wizard, even with this feat, and that warrior has at least one more feat than that wizard.

Also, I disagree that a fighter wouldn't take this feat. Take this feat, and then one to four levels of wizard and cast 1st or 0th level spells (or higher with up to 4 levels) to put into your sword without losing your BaB. A fighter would lose one to two feat from being a fighter for doing this, and would have to spend a feat, but he could also do minor magic, and free cast once per encounter.

@Bears

I was looking at other gish feats and the one that I was focusing on was much more powerful than this, and I thought I'd make a weaker version to be more balanced. The other version is:

Remedial Martial Training
You may be an arcane spellcaster, but you also know how to whack things to death.
Level 1 Wizard or something: You gain proficiencies with simple weapons, martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields. You can cast arcane spells without failure even when using armor.
Level 6: Your base attack bonus is equal to your character level, irregardless of your character class(es). You make iterative attacks using this new BAB. You also gain 1 hit point per character level.
Level 11: As a standard action, you can make an attack with your weapon while also casting a spell that would take a standard action or less to cast normally. The act of attacking becomes that spell's somatic component, if that ever matters.
Level 16: The game's already broken, so who gives a shit?

Which is considerably more powerful than my feat.

So it doesn't let you do something better, it lets you do something less brokenly. (+2 BaB is better than straight good BaB, for example.)

@ Chamomile

What, exactly, are you referring to? I see nothing that you posted that I didn't reply to.

While I agree randomly throwing free things at the Wizard is dumb, but it does take up a feat slot, and I do not feel this feat is more powerful than other tome feats. At max level they get access to the third tier of combat feats rather than second.

I do not agree that making a class is the answer, unless you make many, many classes. What if I wanted to have a Force Mage Fighter guy? Or a pyromancer Ranger?

But just like everyone else, you point out that it is broken at early levels, so I will also ask you, what if it required level 8 or so to take the feat?

[Kaelik]

I was looking at other gish feats and the one that I was focusing on was much more powerful than this, and I thought I'd make a weaker version to be more balanced. The other version is:

That isn't a good reason to make a feat. At best, it is a function call to someone else's reason, which I'm betting is shit, and you aren't dissuading me by pointing out that that someone else made something OP.

[Giraffeking]

The reason to make it is because it does not exist yet in a fashion that is accepted. But I'm starting to get the idea that even if it was very well done, some people hate Gish. I don't know why though. It's a pretty popular idea, it seems.

I'm not too big into Gish; I've never played as one, so I am going to drop it. I think the feat is good, and I will just leave it up to anyone else to use it or fix it if they want. I don't feel like defending it anymore, and will instead try to make a new character class! I do appreciate the feedback, though, even if sometimes it's just misunderstanding or something. Or if it's just nonsense.

[Avoraciopoctules]

The reason to make it is because it does not exist yet in a fashion that is accepted.

I think you should read this thread, and then rethink the validity of that particular argument.

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=172766

[Kaelik]

The reason to make it is because it does not exist yet in a fashion that is accepted.

Yes it does.

So I guess you can follow Koumei's advice now.

[Giraffeking]

The reason to make it is because it does not exist yet in a fashion that is accepted.

I think you should read this thread, and then rethink the validity of that particular argument.

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=172766

A character option and a game mechanic are different, in my opinion. Adding in a complicated mechanic because one doesn't exist isn't a good reason, but adding a character option to a game that is so heavy in character customization does.

Kaelik, where is the Gish Feat that doesn't get flak? I accept I could have not done enough research before hand, but you need evidence not just claims. I haven't seen one.

[Koumei]

So I guess you can follow Koumei's advice now.

The "make it a class" one or my first advice? Please tell me you mean the first advice I gave, I think it really has serious merit.

[Chamomile]

What, exactly, are you referring to? I see nothing that you posted that I didn't reply to.

Practiced Fighter already exists, and your version is needlessly complicated (which is why I googled it to try and find a clearer explanation) which is a mark against it all on its own.

Since the bonus to 3/4 BAB classes is somewhat trivial, it's probable that at every level they can gain a feat they'll decide to take a new feat rather than have existing feats abilities come online one level early. Which means it's also probable that only casters will ever take this feat[1], in which case why on earth do they need even more boosts to caster level on top of the fact that it probably makes up 100% of their spell level? Spell storing is encounter-based, which means you have essentially infinite castings of third level spells at level 1, since the feat has no pre-requisites and everything comes online at once. And on the other hand, the feat dwindles in utility as third-level spells become increasingly less helpful.

If you want to make a character who's gish-like, make a fighter/caster class. Or make separate feats that make martial classes casty and caster classes martial. Trying to make one feat that gives Fighters Wizard-flavor and gives Wizards Fighter-flavor means that it's actually half-useless to both Fighters and Wizards.

[1]Or other 1/2 BAB classes. Or any class who knows the game won't last past level 6 or so and wants to be able to cast Stinking Cloud from level 1 (and maybe they get +1 BAB as icing).

For your convenience, I have bolded the parts of the post you have ignored.

I do not agree that making a class is the answer, unless you make many, many classes. What if I wanted to have a Force Mage Fighter guy? Or a pyromancer Ranger?

Prestige classes are also classes.

But just like everyone else, you point out that it is broken at early levels, so I will also ask you, what if it required level 8 or so to take the feat?

Then it gives you +2 BAB and that's it. Because casters never, ever multi-class to a class that will not grant them spell levels, and by level 8 the ability to store 3rd level spells in your sword is already getting very close to useless.

EDIT: Oh, wait, no, my mistake, you totally did respond to one more sentence of my previous post by pointing to another, also uselessly broken feat. I don't really see how this improves your position any, but it's there.

[Kaelik]

A character option and a game mechanic are different, in my opinion.

...

Kaelik, where is the Gish Feat that doesn't get flak? I accept I could have not done enough research before hand, but you need evidence not just claims. I haven't seen one.

You are an idiot. Ignoring for a moment the hundreds of fucking combat sorcery feats that exist, there is no good reason for "Gish" to be a feat, and several reasons it shouldn't.

If you make a feat tomorrow that says "All your Wizard levels after the first one turn into Eldritch Knight levels" that would be a fucking feat that is an accepted Gish thing.

So stop whining about how you want it to be a feat for no good reason and look at the actual abilities you think a "Gish" should have:

1) You think a Gish should have higher BAB than a Wizard 20.
2) You think a Gish should have higher CL than a Fighter 20.
3) You think a Gish should attack people with their sword, and have the sword cast a spell on their face.

What determines BAB? Classes! What determines CL? Classes.

Nothing about 1 or 2 makes any fucking sense to include in a feat. You modify that by modifying the CL and BAB progressions of classes, and having people who want to take the Gish BAB and CL choose classes that give those things.

Now, if you are saying "but I want my Fire Mage, Storm Lord, Ninja Gaiden, Force Mage class to have full BAB, and it can't" then eat a dick, because what you really want is a feat that just gives you full BAB for a feat, and that is stupid, because it removes a major element from the class, just like a feat that gives a good save progression, classes that don't have full BAB or spellcasting progression are balanced on that fucking principle, and so it should not be surprising at all that basically everyone would want to take a feat that increased their BAB, even not gishes.

So that leaves only 3 as a possible ability for giving to people through a feat.

Now you know what, channelling spells can be obtained through dips in Spellblade or Duskblade, both of which are frankly terrible classes, and I can see some basic argument for "I want my Force mage to channel spells."

But if you want to make a good spell channelling feat, you need to stop trying to make a stupid feat that modifies CL and BAB, and devote yourself to making a good spell channelling feat.

Now, you clearly haven't done that, because you haven't even accomplished step zero of making a good spell channelling feat, defining a subset of spells that can be channelled. All spells is not acceptable.

Step 2 or 3 should be either strictly limiting it to classes with use per day schedules, or giving it uses per day. (Uses per encounter are effectively uses per day) because otherwise the people who will actually take it are Storm Lord dips channelling Lightning into every strike instead of Wizards who have to use spell slots.

[Giraffeking]

Chamomile, I responded to all of that. Maybe not directly, but all of your bolded text has a response.

Kaelik

Your argument makes a lot of sense. You make a few bad assumptions, but over all it's good advice. I wasn't trying to max BaB for one thing, just increase it a little. The only Gish I have really ever seen in action was pretty foppish because he hit about every other turn against the things we were fighting, and his damage didn't really impress anyone. So, based on that and what I was reading in other places about Gish, I just wanted to bolster their weakest areas a little.

Lastly, you last sentence, do you think the spell channeling bit of the feat I made did that well enough?

Also, like I said, I don't plan to fix this anymore. I'm going to rework a class idea I had and see how that goes. I hope you'll give me strong feed back on that too. Should be done in a few days, depending on my work load from work, school, social obligations and what not.

Even though you seem to need to insist I am an idiot every time you don't like my line of thinking, you clearly put of a lot of thought into your responses, so thanks!

[Kaelik]

I wasn't trying to max BaB for one thing, just increase it a little.

I didn't say you did. I said you wanted more BAB than Wizard 20, since Wizard 20 is literally the lowest single class BAB, being higher than that seems obvious.

The only Gish I have really ever seen in action was pretty foppish because he hit about every other turn against the things we were fighting, and his damage didn't really impress anyone. So, based on that and what I was reading in other places about Gish, I just wanted to bolster their weakest areas a little.

And if only you had said that as the reason you were making the feat, we could have pointed out that that really isn't a problem of gishes, it is a problem of core gishes. Lots of spells add attack bonuses, so usually gishes don't have that problem.

But secondly you can add to AB and/or damage in a way besides adding BAB, so if that is the issue, you might want to give them a way to cast certain kinds of buff spells faster at the beginning of combat, or keep them on longer.

Lastly, you last sentence, do you think the spell channeling bit of the feat I made did that well enough?

No. One of my things on this forum is that I think encounter is a stupid word that should never show up in your final rules text. It is too vague, and must always be defined, and you can always just replace the actual word with the definition without losing much. So step 1, you need to define encounter.

Step 2: I think once per "encounter" where encounter is defined in the DMG as those things you have maybe 4 of a day, is not often enough.

Step 3: I really think it is more important that you start by focusing on defining what spells can be channeled.

[Giraffeking]

With all that in mind, I think I will quickly make another revision.

Gish
Pre-reqs: Character level 4

For every 4 levels you have in wizard or any other class with poor BaB progression, you gain a special +1 bonus to hit on all attacks granted by BaB. (So not on natural attacks, but most every other)

Choose one spell casting progression, for every 4 levels you take that do not progress your spell caster level, you gain +1 CL for everything but adding new spells or spells per day.

You also gain the ability to store a spell or spell-like ability in your weapon, this is on top of any other enchantments it may haven. When storing a spell this way, pick any one spell you know, of spell level 3 or lower that initially targets a single target other than yourself, even it if can bounce to hit multiple targets thereafter (such as chain lightening, but excluding fireball) and cast it into the weapon, spending the spell slot or use of your ability. You may store up to one spell like this at a time, and only a total number of times per day equal to the half your level rounded up (min 4). After storing a spell, if you hit someone in combat with your weapon, before you roll for damage, you may choose to have the spell strike them, and it automatically hits but they are still given a fort or will save if the spell allows. They are denied any reflex saves the spell might allow.


Ok, my wording on spell storing is messy, but I am not the best English writer. But how does that seem?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Duskblade Dilettante (Combat)
There's less difference between a knife and a book than most people think.
Benefits: This combat feat scales with your base attack bonus.

• BAB+0: As a full round action, you may designate a weapon you are holding as having the Spell Storing property. This only works for you, and you can only have one such weapon designated at a time. If you designate a weapon while the old one has a spell in it, the spell is wasted.
  BAB+1: You may learn spells stored in Spell Storing weapons as though they were scrolls. This removes the spell from the weapon as if it had been discharged normally.
  BAB+6: You may store twice as many spells in a Spell Storing weapon.
  BAB +11: Spells you discharge from a Spell Storing weapon ignore spell resistance.
  BAB +16: You get a Bullshit bonus to hit with spell storing weapons equal to the number of spell levels currently stored within. (Max of half your BAB)

[Korwin]

Gish
Pre-reqs: Character level 4

For every 4 levels you have in wizard or any other class with poor BaB progression, you gain a special +1 bonus to hit on all attacks granted by BaB. (So not on natural attacks, but most every

I read that as in the first attack doesnt get the bonus to attack?
Another question, I'm an (competent) gish and am able to cast an persistent Divine power. By the wording I still get the bonus to hit...

Chose one spell casting progression, for every 4 levels you take that do not progress your spell caster level, you gain +1 CL for everything but adding new spells or spells per day.

Gish'es have a problem with caster level?

The channeling ability is written confusing.

But my advice is not to Build an new class for an gish, but to Look at existing minmaxed gish-builds an look if its even necessary.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Or perhaps write a feat aimed at someone who is actually taking a gish PrC. If it's a combat feat, then something that improves spell storing weapons has real tradeoffs between BAB ability access and spell access.

[Chamomile]

For every 4 levels you have in wizard or any other class with poor BaB progression, you gain a special +1 bonus to hit on all attacks granted by BaB. (So not on natural attacks, but most every other)

Unnecessarily complicated. Switch pre-req to caster level 4 and then have it grant a +2 to-hit. It's not exactly going to break the game balance if casters get +2 to-hit on their natural attacks and it makes the feat much easier to comprehend.

Choose one spell casting progression, for every 4 levels you take that do not progress your spell caster level, you gain +1 CL for everything but adding new spells or spells per day.

This may as well be blank space. Casters do not swap out higher spell levels in exchange for anything, ever.

You also gain the ability to store a spell or spell-like ability in your weapon, this is on top of any other enchantments it may haven. When storing a spell this way, pick any one spell you know, of spell level 3 or lower that initially targets a single target other than yourself, even it if can bounce to hit multiple targets thereafter (such as chain lightening, but excluding fireball) and cast it into the weapon, spending the spell slot or use of your ability. You may store up to one spell like this at a time, and only a total number of times per day equal to the half your level rounded up (min 4). After storing a spell, if you hit someone in combat with your weapon, before you roll for damage, you may choose to have the spell strike them, and it automatically hits but they are still given a fort or will save if the spell allows. They are denied any reflex saves the spell might allow.

Worth noting that the smart thing to do with this is always going to be to store a spell into an arrow. Especially if we're talking about a spell that normally requires you be in melee range.