Ten Levels

[John Magnum]

You guys don't even fucking want mundane characters, you just inexplicably want to use the term "mundane" to refer to one particular brand of phlebotinum, which is so dense I can't even comprehend it.

[Soda]

It's called mundane because the actions taken are mundane. Swinging a sword. Grappling.

Sorry, I didn't mean to butthurt anybody by using a commonplace word we all know the meaning of.

[Foxwarrior]

Ah, so it's the actions that are mundane. Like reading a book, memorizing symbols, and doing a funny dance while speaking nonsense and throwing guano.

[Mistborn]

What you can't do.. is be "A regular human who wins by being all fucking plucky and shit."

Yes. Fuck Yes.

This guy gets it.

I still don't understand why people feel this need to have high level characters who have 'trained up'. Why can't you just have picked up a new power source, like Spiderman.

Fighter gives you access to maneuvers, the knowledge of how to fight with weapons, how to wear and use armor effectively in combat, tactics, etc...
At some point, you need to pick up a prestige class that gets you power ups.

Why can't the rest of you conksuckers understand this in really simple.

[Soda]

Ah, so it's the actions that are mundane. Like reading a book, memorizing symbols, and doing a funny dance while speaking nonsense and throwing guano.

You mean conjuring, spellcasting, summoning, evoking, divining? Now you're just being difficult.

[Foxwarrior]

No, Soda, you are making a distinction where there isn't one, and I am pointing that out to you.

If I cast gate by waving my arms around in a circle and saying "Gotta Go!", and you cut a circular hole to another plane by karate chopping a circle and saying some frivolous one-liner, why would one and only one of us be mundane?

[Kaelik]

Ah, so it's the actions that are mundane. Like reading a book, memorizing symbols, and doing a funny dance while speaking nonsense and throwing guano.

You mean conjuring, spellcasting, summoning, evoking, divining? Now you're just being difficult.

So to be clear, waving your hands around and creating a portal is called "spellcasting" but swinging a sword around and creating a portal is mundane sword swinging with a non mundane effect?

Did you tell Monks that they are really conjuring bruises by waving their hands around?

Seriously dumb shit, he's not being difficult, he is accurately making the point that Wizards already do non magical actions that have magical effects, and we don't call them mundane, so when fightery people perform non magical actions with magical effects, they are not mundane either.

That is the entire point. There is no reason to talk about people who's actions are mundane but who's effects are not mundane as "mundane" because fuck you, Wizards also take mundane actions with non mundane effects.

[hyzmarca]

Using the latter interpretation, it is clear that a guy who can punch holes in steel is totally mundane if he has that capacity in virtue of training, genetics, or anything at all - except for spells, psionics, etc.

So Superman is mundane?

Game On,
fbmf

Superman is an alien.

Now the Karate Kid is just a normal human who can canonically beat Superman in a fight just because he's really good at Karate.

[sabs]

Using the latter interpretation, it is clear that a guy who can punch holes in steel is totally mundane if he has that capacity in virtue of training, genetics, or anything at all - except for spells, psionics, etc.

So Superman is mundane?

Game On,
fbmf

Superman is an alien.

Now the Karate Kid is just a normal human who can canonically beat Superman in a fight just because he's really good at Karate.

I bow at your superior trolling.

[fbmf]

Using the latter interpretation, it is clear that a guy who can punch holes in steel is totally mundane if he has that capacity in virtue of training, genetics, or anything at all - except for spells, psionics, etc.

So Superman is mundane?

Game On,
fbmf

Superman is an alien.

Now the Karate Kid is just a normal human who can canonically beat Superman in a fight just because he's really good at Karate.

But by virtue of genetics he can punch through a wall. That's all I'm saying.

Game On,
fbmf

[OgreBattle]

The Tome Fighter's the best example of a "Mundane" high level concept I've ever seen.


My own brainstorm of a mundane character is somebody who can create the effect of Wish at-will, but must describe the process in a mundane manner.

[sabs]

That's just.. dumb Ogre.
I'm sorry, but that's like saying, "I want Miracles to be true, but without that pesky Divinity stuff."

[Kaelik]

That's just.. dumb Ogre.
I'm sorry, but that's like saying, "I want Miracles to be true, but without that pesky Divinity stuff."

It is even more stupid because it rewards a specific kind of skill, complete bullshitting of absurd circumstances.

For fighter to be not just more powerful, but substantially more powerful for someone with a specific non game related skill. It is the exact reason we don't play Magic Tea Party for combat.

[Wrathzog]

Because you know that would make the same amount of sense. When someone points out they aren't racist, we can compromise by calling them racist enough, because that would be as accurate as "Mundane Enough" is here.

I don't understand what you're saying. There is no Compromise, I am a racist (and so are you). Are you trying to confuse me? It's working because I don't understand what you're trying to do here.

Listen you appear to not understand. You can not have mundane characters that remain relevant over the standard D&D level progression. The is not an opinion it is a imutable fact the sempai and I are stating.

Oh, I understand exactly what's going on here. This is what's going on:
1. You can not have "realistic" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.
2. You can not have "extraordinary" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.

You are saying statement number one and I am going to respond to statement number 2. That's what this is all about and you can either keep arguing about it or we can do the productive thing and relabel these concepts in ways to get rid of the ambiguity.

Also, why ain't your name Mistborn-Sama? THIS HAS ALWAYS BOTHERED ME.

So Superman is mundane?

ACTUALLY, *puts on nerd glasses* Superman's powers (and thus all kryptonians) are technically psychic (telekinesis) and disqualify him from being considered Extraordinary.

[NineInchNall]

So Superman is mundane?

Game On,
fbmf

(Assumption: Supe's powers are not as wrathzog just described.)

In a world like, oh, Greyhawk: Yes.

Look at it this way, none of the people with hard-ons for Fighters or Barbarians and hatred for "wimpy magic types" seems to have any problem with playing a race like goliaths or fucking minotaurs. It's all going to be relativized to the context of whatever game & world you're in.

[Kaelik]

Because you know that would make the same amount of sense. When someone points out they aren't racist, we can compromise by calling them racist enough, because that would be as accurate as "Mundane Enough" is here.

I don't understand what you're saying. There is no Compromise, I am a racist (and so are you). Are you trying to confuse me? It's working because I don't understand what you're trying to do here.

Okay, I can't tell in what way you are being retarded. Are you actually racist, or do you just not understand the concept that words have a meaning, and when the words do not accurately convey the concept, you should choose different words.

Listen you appear to not understand. You can not have mundane characters that remain relevant over the standard D&D level progression. The is not an opinion it is a imutable fact the sempai and I are stating.

Oh, I understand exactly what's going on here. This is what's going on:
1. You can not have "realistic" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.
2. You can not have "extraordinary" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.

You are saying statement number one and I am going to respond to statement number 2. That's what this is all about and you can either keep arguing about it or we can do the productive thing and relabel these concepts in ways to get rid of the ambiguity.

Why are you saying this to Mistborn, he is not opposed to rebranding, he is one of the ones advocating it. Once we have successfully accomplished the rebranding that will get people to stop fapping to mundane, then we can have the separate discussion about how "extraordinary" is also boring, but totally possible to keep up.

[Mistborn]

Oh, I understand exactly what's going on here. This is what's going on:
1. You can not have "realistic" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.
2. You can not have "extraordinary" characters that remain relevant in the D&D paradigm.

You are saying statement number one and I am going to respond to statement number 2. That's what this is all about and you can either keep arguing about it or we can do the productive thing and relabel these concepts in ways to get rid of the ambiguity.

Why are you saying this to Mistborn, he is not opposed to rebranding, he is one of the ones advocating it. Once we have successfully accomplished the rebranding that will get people to stop fapping to mundane, then we can have the separate discussion about how "extraordinary" is also boring, but totally possible to keep up.

I'm opposed to Charles Atlas superpowers because not only are they boring and kind of stupid but they don't do enough. For one thing they can not be used for any thing interesting.

Exactly the same ability mechanically, but the lack flavor text that elevates it to superhuman action means that the very instant it comes to an MC judgement call you are being restrained by whatever the MC's predispositions about what "real humans can do" are. Charles Atlas super powers cannot compete in a wide variety of roles because they cannot be used to knot cut in many scenarios where phlebtonium powers can.

There are of course exceptions. As previously noted, it is quite possible to have nominally non-magical diplomacy and stealth abilities that remain valid when people around you are doing "high level stuff". But even then I would urge caution: think about all the pushback that D&D Diplomacy gets that D&D charm monster doesn't get. Think about all of Andy Collins' stealth nerfs to Hide that he never would have even considered dumping on invisibility.

On top of that punching things is lame. Punching ghosts and punching through reality (and let's not kid ourselves that's what you need to be able to do to keep punching thing relvent for all 20 levels) is completely retarded especially when people keep scrambling to a the but it's totally mundane tag to it.

[hyzmarca]

Punching through reality makes perfect sense. It's what happens when your strength value is set so high that the universe can't contain it and has a buffer overflow error.

[virgil]

I'm opposed to Charles Atlas superpowers because not only are they boring and kind of stupid but they don't do enough. For one thing they can not be used for any thing interesting.

When you proactively decide the interesting stuff 'is retarded', of course you're going to find it boring.

Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors

• Dodging (Batman, Naruto)
• Super Speed (Naruto)
• Super Strength (Naruto, Illiad, Mandarin, Milo, Phantom)
• Foresight (all of the genius characters)
• Flight (Black Condor)
• Invisibility (The Shadow)
• Mind Control (mesmirists w/a watch)
• Telepathy (Ogun)
• Resurrection (God of War I, Dr McNinja)

[ishy]

Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors

• Dodging (Batman, Naruto)

How can dodging be interesting?

[Mistborn]

When you proactively decide the interesting stuff 'is retarded', of course you're going to find it boring.

Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors

• Dodging (Batman, Naruto)
• Super Speed (Naruto)
• Super Strength (Naruto, Illiad, Mandarin, Milo, Phantom)
• Foresight (all of the genius characters)
• Flight (Black Condor)
• Invisibility (The Shadow)
• Mind Control (mesmirists w/a watch)
• Telepathy (Ogun)
• Resurrection (God of War I, Dr McNinja)

1,2, and 3 aren't enough to keep of with people who have real classes

4 involves metagamey shenanigans and thus is dumb.

5,6,7,8 are all retarded and that's really all their is to say on the matter.

[virgil]

5,6,7,8 are all retarded and that's really all their is to say on the matter.

When you proactively decide the interesting stuff 'is retarded', of course you're going to find it boring.

It's not my fault that you don't have the imagination to use foresight in a game that isn't purely metagame. I guess the Flash should quit the Justice League so someone who can actually keep up will take his slot? Once again, of course Charles Atlas descriptors won't going to do enough when you arbitrarily restrict it to stuff that won't do enough, kind of tautalogical.
@ishy - I should probably expand the idea to include deflecting/redirecting and include those who just plain don't get hurt, including the Tome Jester's power slide

[Wrathzog]

Okay, I can't tell in what way you are being retarded. Are you actually racist, or do you just not understand the concept that words have a meaning, and when the words do not accurately convey the concept, you should choose different words.

I am legitimately prejudiced against people due to superficial reasons like skin color. I don't understand the

Why are you saying this to Mistborn, he is not opposed to rebranding, he is one of the ones advocating it. Once we have successfully accomplished the rebranding that will get people to stop fapping to mundane, then we can have the separate discussion about how "extraordinary" is also boring, but totally possible to keep up.

Well, until people stop using the m-word we can't get have that second discussion (which is the one that I actually want).
But even then, he's obviously not even here to discuss that. All he's had to say on the topic has been, "NOPE. NO NO NO NO NO NOPE."

[Kaelik]

Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors

• Dodging (Batman, Naruto)
• Super Speed (Naruto)
• Super Strength (Naruto, Illiad, Mandarin, Milo, Phantom)
• Foresight (all of the genius characters)
• Flight (Black Condor)
• Invisibility (The Shadow)
• Mind Control (mesmirists w/a watch)
• Telepathy (Ogun)
• Resurrection (God of War I, Dr McNinja)

5-8 Are not Charles Atlas, so most of your point kind of dies. Hell, 1-4 can be Charles Atlas, but aren't in all of your examples.

Okay, I can't tell in what way you are being retarded. Are you actually racist, or do you just not understand the concept that words have a meaning, and when the words do not accurately convey the concept, you should choose different words.

I am legitimately prejudiced against people due to superficial reasons like skin color. I don't understand the

I fucking hate this bullshit Wrathzog. I'm not going to keep going to see how long you can troll. Say something that makes sense or I am putting you on ignore.

Well, until people stop using the m-word we can't get have that second discussion (which is the one that I actually want).
But even then, he's obviously not even here to discuss that. All he's had to say on the topic has been, "NOPE. NO NO NO NO NO NOPE."

No, he has said three things:
1) That people should stop using the word mundane for the things that are not mundane.
2) That a mundane character cannot keep up. (Or whatever the other thing you used that wasn't "Extraordinary.")
3) That an "Extraordinary" character is boring.

It doesn't make sense for you to direct an argument for using words other than mundane at him, because he is on your side in that argument.

[virgil]

Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors

• Dodging (Batman, Naruto)
• Super Speed (Naruto)
• Super Strength (Naruto, Illiad, Mandarin, Milo, Phantom)
• Foresight (all of the genius characters)
• Flight (Black Condor)
• Invisibility (The Shadow)
• Mind Control (mesmirists w/a watch)
• Telepathy (Ogun)
• Resurrection (God of War I, Dr McNinja)

5-8 Are not Charles Atlas, so most of your point kind of dies. Hell, 1-4 can be Charles Atlas, but aren't in all of your examples.

Naruto's Rock Lee is considered prime Charles Atlas, and he comes with super strength and speed. Nameless soldiers throw boulders in the Iliad, Mandarin's ability to literally rip Iron Man's suit off is purely from kung fu training. Black Condor flies because he was raised by condors, and they later retcon it as a mutation (same principle for Kratos). Mesmerists aren't considered magic, as it's a trick any schmoe can learn (ex. Dark Tower's Roland), and the Shadow's tricks are from the same source (training). I guess another mind controller with a sword would be Jin-e from Rurouni Kenshin, as if you can completely paralyze someone it's not a huge leap to include making them follow your commands.