Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

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Voss
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Voss »

Actually, that whole thing is funny, particularly when you put it in context with other stuff he's written (either in his blogs or stuff he's published).

I found this to be far more significant (other than the laugh over dodge being in that list)
Feat requirements provide a modicum of gradation. A more powerful feat has more stringent requirements. Sometimes the requirement is level based (directly or implied), but that still doesn't change the fact that all feats "cost" the same, regardless of any other factor, including character level. The original design idea was that in a perfect world, a feat you take at 3rd level is still valuable to you at 15th level. And that was a good idea when we created the game, but the game has progressed so far beyond those initial bounds that it may have outgrown the idea of the feat as a single value, non-scaling aspect to the game. Because while you can put stringent requirements on a feat that's better than others, what if you've got a cool ability that just isn't as useful (or useful as often) as existing feats?


First, seriously? If the requirement is higher, the feat can be more powerful? Thats good design? Thats crap. Particularly when the requirement is high stats (and his AE setting has spellcasting feats that require a 17+ in a spellcasting stat, so he really does seem to think this), it just means that already powerful characters are going to grow even more powerful, and sucky characters will stay that way.

Second, that original design idea (that feats would stay valuable as you level) was almost never used, except for possibly power attack, item creation and natural spell, and some metamagic feats (though those actually get more useful as you go up in level). But most of the PH feats are just as crappy as third party or splat book feats. Fucking dodge and cleave are perfect examples. The second at least gets some use if you're fighting weak monsters a lot, but outside of that, its pretty crappy. And I'm not even touching that damn skill related feats. A static bonus over 20 levels? Pfft.

Eh. I know Monte has a serious rep in certain circles (particularly on his message boards, where the folks jizz all over their computers every time he speaks, even after utterly shitty products like the d20 World of Darkness), but even though he has some good ideas some of the time (most of the changes to the AE magic system), most of the time it seems like he is talking out of his ass. And, unfortunately, a lot of people seem to thinks he speaks from a position of authority, so anything he says is gold.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by JonSetanta »

Dodge feat.
Gugh.. gah... can't.. breath.. too much.. stupid..
*seizures from bad memories in 2001 when we played 3.0 and my monk took Dodge to test it....*

And to add, I'm sorry, I'll never join in the Montebashing. He replied promptly and intelligently on the littlest design details anyone had when I posted houserule stuff on his forum years ago.
Overall, a great guy.
However, I do disagree with some of his works of late.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Voss »

It isn't really bashing. Like most people in the RPG industry, he's had good ideas, indifferent ideas and ideas that turn out to be shit. (the shit gets most of the attention though, since thats what has to be fixed). Its just that a lot of RPG junkies seem to have this obsession with picking an icon that they will mindlessly fellate for several years. People still do it with Gygax. With 4E it looks like its going to be Mearls, despite how half-assed Iron Heroes was.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by CalibronXXX »

I thought the only common complaint against Monte was that he had the habit of writing overpowered spells(which often weren't actually overpowered).
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by virgil »

While I love Mearls's work in Iron Heroes, I do find it a bit weird for him to be in the middle of working on it, then suddenly decide to drop it and run towards WotC. Did they offer him a job, pull out a stopwatch, and tell him he has 15 minutes to be in their offices or they'll hire a monkey?

And everything I've ever seen, the common complaints were that Monte Cook's work were hugely overpowered in general, not just spells.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Manxome »

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1195367641[/unixtime]]Its just that a lot of RPG junkies seem to have this obsession with picking an icon that they will mindlessly fellate for several years.


I'm pretty sure that tendency is not unique to RPG junkies.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Voss »

virgileso at [unixtime wrote:1195368468[/unixtime]]While I love Mearls's work in Iron Heroes, I do find it a bit weird for him to be in the middle of working on it, then suddenly decide to drop it and run towards WotC. Did they offer him a job, pull out a stopwatch, and tell him he has 15 minutes to be in their offices or they'll hire a monkey?


It really does seem that way. It certainly feels unfinished

And everything I've ever seen, the common complaints were that Monte Cook's work were hugely overpowered in general, not just spells.


Hmm. I've seen his modules come off that way, but most of the Arcana stuff seems underpowered when compared to D&D. Mid levels seem roughly equivalent (standard D&D seems to win just from the sheer number of books), but high levels seem a bit lower in power, and low level spellcasters got kicked straight in the nuts. Apart from the second level spell Muddy Ground, which is so badly written it can flat-out win combats against (land-based) monsters all the way up to level 20.


Manxome- it isn't, of course. Its the air of 'legitimate authority' that can make rules discussions that much more irritating that makes it bad. "But Monte said the dodge feat dramatically changed your character, so it must be good as written..."
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by virgil »

Actually, it's pretty much stated by Mearls himself that the reason the book is unpolished is because he got an offer from Wizards; so the system was rushed towards the end. Guess where the magic system is?

That's part of the reason not many look at Iron Heroes as a sign that the designer is bad at making games, because it's known that he truly didn't finish it.

One problem with this knowledge is that 4E is still apparently being playtested, and isn't even fully written; despite the expected release date. Pretty good indication that the whole thing will be rushed to meet the deadline and hurt the entire system until 5E comes out.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Username17 »

That's part of the reason not many look at Iron Heroes as a sign that the designer is bad at making games, because it's known that he truly didn't finish it.


No. The fact that Iron Heroes is a confusing mess bound by several damned-if-you-do-or-don't choices that don't seem to have yet been settled on by the design team when it went to print is not something that I think I can hold specifically against Mike Mearls.

What I specifically hold against Mike Mearls is the Knight Class from the PHB II. It's not just that it's underpowered, or that it has severe interactivity problems with the rules. The problem with the Knight is that it is fucking retarded. Everything about that class is shit. The rules are shit, the power level is shit, the flavor is made by pouring butterscotch on squishy feces.

Iron Heroes just has blank spots that probably can't be filled with anything workable. To make it a complete game you'd have to backtrack and totally overhaul large sections. In an ideal world we could imagine that had theykept at it long enough it would have eventually been turned into a quality and inished product. But when Mike Mearls has time and an expense account, he turns out the Knight Class from the PHB II. And it's garbage. Six pages of unplayable, incomprehensible, intellectually insulting crap.

----

The problem we have with Monte Cook is that he needs an editor. He writes bewildering piles of material and tirades on various subjects, and it's not all good. But he does have a lot of good ideas. The best example of a product that he was basically allowed to have free reign on is The Book of Vile Darkness. It has a lot of cool stuff in it. It has a lot of dumb stuff, and the whole thing is more than a bit juvenile. But it has a bunch of cool stuff in it.

Compare and contrast with the Book of Exalted Deeds which doesn't have anything good in it. That's why we respect Monte Cook. Not because he doesn't do things in a half assed fashion, but because he can take stupid ideas and put some stuff that is memorable and awesome in them. He's basically the best "idea man" that WotC had.

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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by virgil »

If Monte Cook is the best 'idea man' that WotC had, who's the best 'rules man'?
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Captain_Bleach »

Jacob_Orlove at [unixtime wrote:1195360950[/unixtime]]I read the articles that article linked to, and found this paragraph:

(from http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.c ... rd20_Feats and emphasis mine)
Monte Cook wrote:While this challenge is inherent throughout the game, nowhere is it more problematic than with feats. Part of the problem is that the game-currency value of a feat is set, and it's set quite high. The core feats like Power Attack, Dodge, magic item creation, etc. all offer abilities that dramatically change your character and affect, if not every encounter (often many times during that encounter), at least every adventure in a meaningful way.



Dodge?! Bwahaha!
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Leress »

Inspired by the Onion Knight...
The Lotus Knight
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

Wow.
wrote:Late Bloomer: After every round after the first a Lotus Knight gains extra power. Each round after the first, a Lotus Knight can choose to gain +1 to all attack rolls or +1 Caster Level. These Caster Level increases allow a Lotus Knight to cast spells (as outlined below).

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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by virgil »

Bloody hell. Never go into a monologue with that thing in the room. The sheer vagueness of what constitutes an 'encounter' can cause all sorts of hassles, especially when you lose your cap at level 20...which is just plain stupid. "I meditate for a day, then I cast anything I want at caster level 43,000!!"
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Captain_Bleach »

The only thing worse than the Onion Knight was a class feature named after a teenager hitting puberty later than usual.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Voss »

No. No, it isn't.

From the fluff:
The Lotus Knights are contemplative and ponderous individuals


Or possibly...
Petal Points?

Or just the damn concept.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Leress »

I have the rant here before I can compose myself to say anything on that thread...

:flames:

First the Apologetic now this...BKDubs doesn't even see how broken the Arithmancy ability is and I already told Bk that in the Onion knight thread. Petal points are bloody stupid just give the class bloody weapon and armor proficiencies and be done with it. It's dumb and it only give faux customization.

I have pretty much given up on trying to tell people about how vague encounters are and how doing per encounter is stupid. The spell casting is beyond retarded...you start battle as being shit you are worse than a monk or fighter, after a round has passed (if the creature isn't dead already you can at best cast as 3 level wizard except with more suck unless you are using broken math...ie Arithmancy.

Petal dance...*sighs* it's completely worthless

Lotus Fury...think monk but with a longsword if that.

Intelligent Placement and Insightful strike are the same bloody thing.

All the other crap that comes after 10th level is just stupid adding of tiny bonuses that really don't do anything.

*pants*
There I'm better, this class is not on dubs, they are just hub caps.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Koumei »

Contemplative and ponderous. Do you think they don't realise the meaning of ponderous? I made that mistake once.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by CalibronXXX »

Doesn't ponderous imply slow, clumsy, and, to a lesser extent, large or awkwardly formed? Maybe they were reffering to the class mechanics.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Voss »

Yes, it does. I think he was trying to make 'pondering' a descriptive quality.

But now I'm picking that bizarrely dressed peacock girl he's using as a pic with a beer gut, panting and trying to catch her breath at the beginning of every battle.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by MrWaeseL »

Man, the Lotus Knight author must have been pissed bkdubs1-bkdubs122 were taken.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Voss »

What the fucking fuck?
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t ... r]Jonathan fucking Tweet. And since he's still working at Wizards, this strikes me as a bad sign for the future. For some context, you can follow the various links to his gleemax profile. He wrote the asstastic alignment descriptions (at least for 3.0). He was trying, apparently, to insert some irony.

And the Enworld thread itself is an absolute parade of morons. Its one of the few non-magic related feats in the PH thats actually worth taking, but because Tweetie said so, its suddenly 'under-performing'
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Crissa »

Wait... It's underperforming because...

The thread is totally on topic until that comes up, too. Argh.

x-x

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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by RandomCasualty »

I didn't see under performing anywhere. All I saw was that Jonathan thought that it required too much math, and Jonathan hated people using formulas to find the optimum power attack amount.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Voss »

Yes, he decided he hates it... because sometimes other people don't play the game the way he thinks it should be played.

Scroll down the Enworld thread. The 'under-performing' stuff starts with some guy going by 'Moniker'. And then 'Lord Xtheth', for whom it so weak its just a prereq for *cleave* of all things.

The thread then degenerates into 'math is hard' vs. 'dude, math isn't hard'. Punctuated by attempts to handle PA in an even more feeble manner.
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