So, Magic the Gathering

koz · Post by **koz** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:15 pm

No, Innistrad is shit. The reason it contributes to Eternal formats is mostly due to very aggressive banlists in Vintage and Legacy and a lack of good things to work with elsewhere. If all you have is trash, then you'll see some of it as gold, but that doesn't mean it isn't trash.

Innistrad was badly-designed, badly-thought-out, and is a shittier block than Kamigawa in almost every respect. This is particularly acutely-visible because it followed on from Scars of Mirrodin, which was actually one of the better blocks they made recently. The reason I can say this with such confidence is simply because I've played MtG back before the retard philosophies of MaRo and the flood of 4rry designers turned it all the fuck to shit - you seem not to even remember such a time before making your big pronouncements, LM. I'd also like to add that basically the entire game has been pigeon-holed into being all about the Limited play - and Limited play is a terrible cancer of a format.

So yeah, I'm willing to accept a difference of opinion on what we like, but calling current MtG 'good' is just plain inaccurate. As is calling Innistrad anything but the utter shit block that it was.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:45 pm

Innistrad didn't really seem like it would lead to terribly interesting constructed tournament decks, but I will say that it was fun to do booster draft in. Looked like some of the werewolf, vampire, and zombie theme decks were pretty entertaining. Even though except for the vampires they were pretty terribad.

Just conceptually, I don't think they had enough horror monsters in there. White being all about Human Soldiers and Angels was pretty fucking boring. Should have been all about Werewolves and Witches for Green, Vampires and Zombies for Black, Mutants and Deep Ones for Blue, Troglodytes and Devils for Red, and Frankensteins and Slashers for White. And then have all of those things appear to limited extents in adjacent colors, and put the smatterings of frightened villagers in every color. So yeah, you have White cards that are fucking werewolves and deep ones.

There just weren't enough interesting tribes to support a wide variety of constructed decks. And I blame that 100% on the fact that they didn't even bother to assign any horror tropes to White and largely skimped on that sort of thing for all the colors except Black and maybe a little for Blue.

But in Booster Draft, I did have a good time with it.

-Username17

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:08 pm

MtG is probably the game I've spent the most time physically playing in aggregate over the years. My brother and I got a 2 player starter set from Revised and we've been hooked ever since. We've waxed and waned in how much we've played over the years but I think we've bought cards from pretty much every set they've printed.

Recently we've been getting into drafting. We got a couple of booster drafts out of the Innistrad packs we bought and had such a good time we just bought a box of Return to Ravnica.

Like most games we play we've tweaked the rules extensively to suit our play style over the years. We pretty much play a warped version of Commander nowadays, using home made Commanders based on characters from our RPG campaigns, shows we watch, geek culture and in-jokes. It sure works better since we took lands out of the decks anyway.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:21 pm

I had a lot of fun with M:tG off and on for a bit over 10 years. I started around Fallen Empires and quit during that Guild block (I forgot the exact name).

I never really got into tournaments, and only ever played with one friend and my wife. As both of them lost interest, I did too. A couple of years ago, my wife and I got into Dominion, and haven't touched M:tG since.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:27 pm

I've pretty much stopped playing Magic because I decided I like cooperative games.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:06 pm

I also blush to mention that I'm cheap and therefore I dislike competitive games where forking out money gives you an advantage.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:08 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:There just weren't enough interesting tribes to support a wide variety of constructed decks. And I blame that 100% on the fact that they didn't even bother to assign any horror tropes to White and largely skimped on that sort of thing for all the colors except Black and maybe a little for Blue.

Tribal has never made for interesting constructed both times they did tribal before one tribe was clearly too good. In Onslaught block goblins were absurd and in Lowyn faries became the poster child for being that one deck.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:23 pm

Ancient History wrote: L5R is shit ever since they stopped printing Hare Clan. :P

I would have said since they stopped printing Toturi's Army, but I'm pretty sure that was the same time. Also, the old favor rules were much, much better, especially with multiple players.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:29 pm

L5R has been shit since they started printing Toturi's Army. That was when they started trying to force the "right" clans to win tournaments with the "right" kind of decks so that the story would go the way they wanted it to. In other words: when they started printing deliberately overpowered cards and directly nerfing strategies in order to try to change the clan composition in tournaments.

Also: get off my lawn.

-Username17

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:50 pm

I started in Beta, it was alot of fun, but the treadmill does get old for constructed (and playing against mono-red direct damage 4 out of 5 times in every constructed tourney got kinda old).

I don't see how anyone can play constructed anymore, but booster draft was major fun the last five years or so I played. $12 (then, I think it's more like $25 now) got an evening of entertainment and some cardboard slips to shove in the closet. I got about 30 cards away from a complete foil Urza set when I finally gave up the madness even for draft.

There's not nearly enough spillover from M:TG to other games, though. It took me two months of steadily showing up before finally getting 5ish people to show up regularly for a PF game at the card store...and I can't get them to drive the five minutes to my house, where I don't often have to delay the game while some players wrap up another round of M:TG.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:48 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:L5R has been shit since they started printing Toturi's Army. That was when they started trying to force the "right" clans to win tournaments with the "right" kind of decks so that the story would go the way they wanted it to. In other words: when they started printing deliberately overpowered cards and directly nerfing strategies in order to try to change the clan composition in tournaments.

Also: get off my lawn.

-Username17

Unsure if serious.
They "started" printing Toturi's Army in Imperial (toku and akodo toturi, though without the trait originally), and printed the first stronghold in Anvil of the Void. That's like complaining that MtG sold out in Revised.

Admittedly, I didn't start playing until later, but still.

(Also, it was a lot more fun to subvert those expectations you're complaining about. I ran Palaces and Dark Path as honor decks).

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:14 am

L5R turned to shit when they stopped giving out free blowjobs for playing Phoenix!

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:33 am

fectin wrote: Unsure if serious.
They "started" printing Toturi's Army in Imperial (toku and akodo toturi, though without the trait originally), and printed the first stronghold in Anvil of the Void. That's like complaining that MtG sold out in Revised.

Admittedly, I didn't start playing until later, but still.

Toturi's Army was a shitty box. They took a bunch of independent characters (characters so mediocre that they weren't clan limited) and announced that they had all joined Toturi's Army and that was a faction now. It was an army box that was made entirely out of shitty characters who were cheap and generic enough that they could be put into other decks to cover glaring weaknesses. It was a hopeless idea.

The thing is that they had this story they for some reason wanted to tell, where Toturi would save the day and become the Ninja Emperor (yes, really), so he was supposed to win. Even though their actual concept for the faction he was leading was one that would never and could never amount to anything. So they ended up writing Toturi's faction as allying with various other clans one at a time and then try to make sure that with various outrageous rulings, deliberately overpowered card printings, and taking huge dumps on previously functional factions that they could make the factions they wanted to win, win.

The whole commitment to telling the story based on the tournament results was wholly incompatible with wanting to tell a railroady story. It was a dishonest thing to do to fans, and made for a shitty story and a shitty tournament environment. And it all started with Toturi's fucking worthless army.

-Username17

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:26 pm

I thought the first arc was a kick in the junk specifically targeting Lion ("Ha-Ha; you don't get a real thunder, and even though your dude won, you get no benefit. Take your Ancestral Hankies elsewhere!"), but yeah, it did get bad later.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:21 am

I actually really enjoyed L5R during samurai edition, until near the end of it where it was all about negating the negation that negated my negation that negated your unable to be negated action. (Determination is bullocks). I really enjoyed how every clan (for the most part) had a perfectly viable deck (sans Spider and the Hare Clan box) and in some cases, even two or three! That was also the last arc my Shadowlands Horde got a real box though, and even then it was a rare in packs.

For perspective in case you haven't followed it, Samurai edition is three arcs old now, coming before both the current Emperor edition and the prior Celestial edition. Samurai was also the last arc that featured legacy holdings (built in gifts and favors on a keyword).

I kinda miss that game sometimes.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:45 am

Mister_Sinister wrote:No, Innistrad is shit.
... This is particularly acutely-visible because it followed on from Scars of Mirrodin, which was actually one of the better blocks they made recently.

No, Scars was shit. Because MaRo is a fuckhole and wants creatures to rulez j00 or something. Any interesting dynamics came from cards in the adjacent blocks.

At least Innistrad made Solar Flare a viable archetype for a while, even if it did bring us Snapcaster Mage and Cavern of Souls.

Zendikar was a much more entertaining block.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:01 pm

NineInchNall wrote:
Zendikar was a much more entertaining block.

Specifically the Shards / M10 / Zend block I'd say. So many different decks in standard then, you had viable jund/naya/bant... 4 color control, 5 color control, white weenie, monoblack vamps, red deck wins, U mill, UW control, UB mill, ugh... I miss that standard.

Edit: I loved using path to exile to screw one of their creatures, and as they go through their deck for their land you smack them with archive trap for free

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:49 pm

Seething song just got banned in modern.

What. The. Fuck. Wizards. It's not like Strom was even super powered in Modern but they decided to give everyone who played it a huge kick in the nuts.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:10 am

Lord Mistborn wrote:Seething song just got banned in modern.

What. The. Fuck. Wizards. It's not like Strom was even super powered in Modern but they decided to give everyone who played it a huge kick in the nuts.

I feel like it might have had a lot to do with griselband being just dumb on turn one.

EDIT: Sure, you'd have to hope for godlike hands all the time, and the deck probably wouldnt always be THAT consistent, but the idea of something so blatantly problematic coming in and ruining the days of people who actually built good, consistent decks to me at least is kind of lame. It gives too much power to the factor of luck.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:13 pm

Damocles wrote:EDIT: Sure, you'd have to hope for godlike hands all the time, and the deck probably wouldnt always be THAT consistent, but the idea of something so blatantly problematic coming in and ruining the days of people who actually built good, consistent decks to me at least is kind of lame. It gives too much power to the factor of luck.

U/R Storm's problem was never that it was inconsistent. It's that it folds like a chump to any kind of hate and almost never beats decks with counterspells and to a lesser extent targeted discard (i.e. most of the format)

The thing is most of the "fair decks" that strom was supposedly supressing lose just as hard to Twin or Pod only they lose harder since thay can't sideboard Grafdiggers Cage, Rest in Peace, Rule of Law or any of the 10 billion hate cards that hose Strom.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:06 pm

he who buys the best net deck wins. not much of a game if you ask me. havent bought a single card since before KAmigawa, or whatever nonsense made weapon to equip monsters with trying to turn MtG into an imitation RPG. the planeswalkers and such.. meh.

back when you could run 37 lightning bolts and 13 mountains was when the game was best. making it tournament only, not giving rulebooks with the game, and many other such things this past decade hae made it a pokemon wannabe.

just like WotC to have an industry leader, and then try to copy the second rate games and ruin their own game in the process.

i sold off my sets of beta through weatherlight long ago and kept a few decks like mesa craft, enduring bombardment, capsize, thallid shooter, and swamp-walk that i jsut ad a few new cards that i trade some of my old leftovers for that people want black borders instead of the new white border reprints of. like the swampwalk deck land that made ALL lands in play count as swamps so i dont have to worry about enchanting an opponents land to be a swamp and then pound them with bog wraiths and the black counterspell they have to pay 5 life for.

i stopped playing in ANY tournaments when type 1.5 stopped getting played and everyone was only playing the money-spending engine of type 2.

7th edition rules is the highest i will play also to prevent that stupid shit like planeswalkers, and artifact equipment.

oh how i miss my icy manipulator deck. i might try to find it this weekend

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:38 pm

Wow shadzar has offically slipped into the Poe zone. I really can not belive that he's not just RPing an absurd parody of a grognard at this point.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:46 pm

Played when Fallen Empires was out, stopped after Ice Age.

MisterDee · Post by **MisterDee** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:17 pm

I dabbled in it around Kamigawa and the next block.

Mostly, I played Constructed on a very tight budget, which may be why I didn't find it all that amazing.

Lately, I've been checking out draft videos and think I might try it again. We'll see.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:09 pm

Lord Mistborn wrote:Wow shadzar has offically slipped into the Poe zone. I really can not belive that he's not just RPing an absurd parody of a grognard at this point.

i will correct myself. though i dont like spending money on things i mostly have no use for. a game that is always chance and skill over $ spent... i will sit in on a booster draft of ANY block with ANY main edition rule set. but i will play old school fast and dirty, not some combo nonsense that takes an engine to work that cant be built out of 99.99% of the booster selection process, until you jsut have people pulling rares or dont know how to draft.

prefer single-elim drafts also over elo games.

are you saying i am old because all the lands i use have the word "tap" on them rather than a tap-symbol and have no mana symbol on them either? (well except for my OPAC and other textless lands back when i got my DCI legends membership in... 1993?)

what edition are they on now anyway? any format still allow mana drain, timmy, ancestral recall, ante cards?