Pun Pun, Sarrukhs and Manipulate Form

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:18 am

Wait, the argument against PunPun is, there is no list of Ex-, Su-, Sp-Abilities?
There is no (one) list of Wizard spells. Shure there are multiple lists (one in every book).

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:43 am

Korwin wrote:Wait, the argument against PunPun is, there is no list of Ex-, Su-, Sp-Abilities?

That's a big part of the argument. Pun Pun simply says that it can grant an extraordinary ability. It doesn't give any other parameters. But the thing is, there is not any expectation anywhere ever that "an extraordinary ability" refers to any extraordinary ability off the big list. For starters, there isn't any fucking extraordinary ability list in the first fucking place!

Let's talk about something that granted an enhancement bonus to strength. If it says it grants a +2 bonus, it grants a +2 bonus; if it says it grants a +4 bonus, it grants a +4 bonus. But if it just says "an enhancement bonus to strength" and then does not specify what the +X actually is, you do not get to go to the "list of strength enhancement bonuses" and choose the biggest one. Because that's stupid, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that it or anything else actually works like that.

Korwin wrote:There is no (one) list of Wizard spells. Shure there are multiple lists (one in every book).

You're actually totally wrong here. All of the extra lists are indeed added to "the Wizard list", which is why Wizards are able to learn them. Because:

PHB wrote:A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

(emphasis mine)

The Wizard List is really a thing that exists in the rules. And expansion spells are added to it on a regular basis. It's still considered a single list from the point of view of game mechanics that reference it.

Fundamentally, Pun Pun is equivalent to taking the wording "grants an enhancement bonus to strength" and then insisting that because Epic Strength Enhancement Bonuses are uncapped, that they get to choose +1,000,000 as their bonus. This is deeply, deeply absurd. There is no reason to believe that an unspecified variable means that you get to choose anything from the list in this instance, and that list doesn't even exist.

The Sarruk simultaneously doesn't have any wording that would lead us to believe that you can choose any extraordinary ability from the extraordinary abilities list, and there isn't any extraordinary ability list to choose from. The Pun Pun concept is fatally flawed coming and going. It doesn't fucking do that and there's no "that" for it to do!

-Username17

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:49 am

No, the argument against PunPun is that the rule doesn't say any (Ex), (Su), (Sp) ability, just an ability, therefore, we can't know which theoretical list we should be choosing from, if any. It's incomplete, not just impractical.

See, the Cleric can choose from the Cleric list. And there are a finite number of entries on the Cleric list: 1-867. So the Cleric can pick one of those abilities. When a new book is published, it adds entries to the list.

Uh-huh...and we've already established that the only difference between a 3rd party hack writing a new spell and a player writing a new spell is DM approval (which often exists in the former case anyway), so I'm not seeing the fundamental difference between 'player-made list of (Ex) abilities' and 'Cleric spell list,' except the latter has a woefully incomplete list printed in the core book. The fact that one is called a "list" while the other is not does not seem to make a substantive difference in the organization of the abilities. A difference, which makes no difference...

But see, Wizards pick from a different list. And their list goes from 1-868. And they can always choose to add spell 868. And entry 868 on the list is "Make up any spell you want." Including of course "Win D&D."

And I am saying that if there was a "all ex abilities" list. And Manipulate Form was a function call to that list. Entry 4687 on that list is very specifically, from the "Improving Monsters" section: "Or anything else you can think of."

So Wizards can Win D&D and if Manipulate Form actually was a function call, so could Sarruks.

Why in the world did you go off on this "Win D&D" strawman in the first place, then? If you agree that that's not a problem of interpretation but of implementation, why did you bring it up in the first place? You can argue the interpretation (that there is no correct way to parse the rule because it's incomplete) separately, which you have done, but this whole thing has nothing to do with the Win D&D possibility, which is already in the game in numerous places.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:27 pm

Stubbazubba wrote:Uh-huh...and we've already established that the only difference between a 3rd party hack writing a new spell and a player writing a new spell is DM approval (which often exists in the former case anyway), so I'm not seeing the fundamental difference between 'player-made list of (Ex) abilities' and 'Cleric spell list,' except the latter has a woefully incomplete list printed in the core book. The fact that one is called a "list" while the other is not does not seem to make a substantive difference in the organization of the abilities. A difference, which makes no difference...

No you dumb shit. The similarity between the Cleric List and the hypothetical Ex ability list, if it existed, would be that they are both finite lists with finite number of options to choose from.

You cannot choose a Cleric spell that is not on the Cleric list, and The Cleric list does not contain Win D&D. The difference between the Cleric list and the Ex ability is that if the Ex ability list did exist, Win D&D would be on the list.

Yes, if you convince the DM to add something to the Cleric List, it could have all sorts of things, but Win D&D is on the Ex ability list (or would be if it existed) already without the DM adding it.

Stubbazubba wrote:Why in the world did you go off on this "Win D&D" strawman in the first place, then? If you agree that that's not a problem of interpretation but of implementation, why did you bring it up in the first place? You can argue the interpretation (that there is no correct way to parse the rule because it's incomplete) separately, which you have done, but this whole thing has nothing to do with the Win D&D possibility, which is already in the game in numerous places.

Because it is a different argument. The first issue with Pun-Pun is that it doesn't work.

The second completely different argument is that if it did work, the person who thinks they invented it is not even smart enough to use it properly, as evidenced by trying to get Divine Ranks through Ice Assassin, instead of through giving themself Win D&D, and using that to give them Divine Ranks.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:38 pm

The implicit (and, I stress, subjective) limitation to Manipulate Form is that it can only apply an ability already possessed by a "Scaled One" race. However, given the rather vast number of types of these critters (even before you get into applying templates) it's an overpowered ability.

It can make for interesting stories, though. I once ran a campaign where the "big bad" was a half-illithid sarrukh called "The Shaper" who basically had commandeered a world as a private laboratory for combining Mind Flayer and Sarrukh biological manipulation. The PCs ran across some weird stuff in that game...

schpeelah · Post by **schpeelah** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:44 pm

I'd like to note that the creators of Pun-Pun did not actually think Manipulate Form is restricted to some master ability list. The writeup includes a paragraph talking about how Manipulate Form totally lets you write anything and give it to a character as long as you stick Ex, Su or Sp on it, but they are going to restrict themselves to abilities already written because total omnipotence is boring, but yes, Pun-Pun the character can technically give himself any power he can imagine.

zugschef · Post by **zugschef** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:54 pm

schpeelah wrote:I'd like to note that the creators of Pun-Pun did not actually think Manipulate Form is restricted to some master ability list. The writeup includes a paragraph talking about how Manipulate Form totally lets you write anything and give it to a character as long as you stick Ex, Su or Sp on it, but they are going to restrict themselves to abilities already written because total omnipotence is boring, but yes, Pun-Pun the character can technically give himself any power he can imagine.

so a class with the spellcasting ability which says "This class casts spells." and nothing more, is able to cast every fuckin' spell that has ever been published?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:12 pm

zugschef wrote:
schpeelah wrote:I'd like to note that the creators of Pun-Pun did not actually think Manipulate Form is restricted to some master ability list. The writeup includes a paragraph talking about how Manipulate Form totally lets you write anything and give it to a character as long as you stick Ex, Su or Sp on it, but they are going to restrict themselves to abilities already written because total omnipotence is boring, but yes, Pun-Pun the character can technically give himself any power he can imagine.
so a class with the spellcasting ability which says "This class casts spells." and nothing more, is able to cast every fuckin' spell that has ever been published?

Well, according to schpeelab, he can actually cast spells that haven't been created.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:37 pm

Alright, first and foremost, "the 'Win D&D' ability" is a flat-out fucking strawman and reductio ad absurdium, no matter how anybody might want to spin it. This does absolutely nothing productive, and certainly doesn't mean you "win" the argument. "Win D&D" needs to be completely removed from this discussion -- it's nothing more than a distraction, and if that's all somebody's got, they've got no business even bothering to try.

...You Lost Me wrote:wotmaniac is not doing that, he pretty much openly stated that he's talking about RAI, and his source for RAI is the chapter in Superlizards that's all about how the sarrukh made scalykind with their progenitor powers.

*DING-DING-DING* We have a winner!

Kaelik wrote: The fact that you could compile such a list does not change that a) the list doesn't exist,

I realized that was kinda weak, even as I was typing it, since it was based on a counterfactual conditional (and by itself, rather vacuous) ..... it was one of those ideas that I just couldn't think of how to properly describe at the moment, and that's just kinda what fell out.

Alright, let's look at this from a slightly different angle:
Let's say that, for the sake of argument, the the sentence in question ("grants an ability") is, in fact, complete. Bear with me ....

The only way that this is incomplete is if it were to exist in a bubble -- which it doesn't. So, we have to assume that it exists within some larger context -- which it does.
Now, even if you go back and read the entire sarrukh chapter (i.e., apply the context), this ability still isn't really further defined anywhere (they simply continue to add context). As such, the reader is left having to infer certain fundamental assumptions about the nature of this ability. This being the case, it would necessarily be implied that Manipulate Form can indeed bestow any Ex, Su, or Sp ability that the user happens to pull out of his ass.

And now the counterfactual conditional of a hypothetical compilable list now becomes valid.

So, a player restricting themselves to only published abilities is actually demonstrating restraint.

Ancient History wrote:The implicit (and, I stress, subjective) limitation to Manipulate Form is that it can only apply an ability already possessed by a "Scaled One" race.

I disagree -- this interpretation has several problems.
* it suggests that through the millenia of experimentation, this is all they tried, or thought to try, or that which they did try was the furthest extent of their abilities. This is at odds with the description of both them and their process.
* there's no reason to think that the sample creatures are all that exist. Also, every time a new creature splat comes out with variant scaly-type creatures (or a DM follows MM advice and mixes things up to keep things interesting), if you want to implement this creature in to a FR game, then you accept that this other specimen was also probably created by the sarrukh. Now you have a limit-break on what the sarrukh was presumably able to do.

However, given the rather vast number of types of these critters (even before you get into applying templates) it's an overpowered ability.

Not necessarily. The list of unique abilities that appear across the various scaly-ones is actually pretty short. Also, remember this creature's place in the world, and the fact that it's basically an Epic-level ability.
Though, your admittedly-subjective interpretation does seem rather reasonable for use in actual play (as a practical matter).

zugschef wrote: so a class with the spellcasting ability which says "This class casts spells." and nothing more, is able to cast every fuckin' spell that has ever been published?

This is a complete strawman and fallacious reductionism.
First, no class like this would exist (well, aside from some complete fucktard making up some shit in his basement).
Second, the ability actually does exist within some larger context! A fact which seems to keep getting ignored.
So, this recurring argument is invalid.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:18 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
That's a big part of the argument. Pun Pun simply says that it can grant an extraordinary ability. It doesn't give any other parameters. But the thing is, there is not any expectation anywhere ever that "an extraordinary ability" refers to any extraordinary ability off the big list. For starters, there isn't any fucking extraordinary ability list in the first fucking place!

There's no Master List, but there is a list of the most common extraordinary abilities in the back of the Monster Manual. This is what I assume the Sarrukh designers expected people to draw from.

Stinktopus · Post by **Stinktopus** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:44 pm

Libertad wrote:There's no Master List, but there is a list of the most common extraordinary abilities in the back of the Monster Manual. This is what I assume the Sarrukh designers expected people to draw from.

No. The designers expected the Sarrukh to be the domain of DMs. They expected DMs to have plots involving Sarrukhs where a bizarre lizard man Meteor Swarms a town to death and the PCs have to figure out what the hell happened after they kill this seemingly ordinary lizard man who ran out of his new, daily allotment of Meteor Swarms.

The Sarrukh should have a tag, specifically labelling it an MTP-certified, DM-only, plot monster (Players, fuck off). But, that would be against the design philosophy of 3E.

The designers figured that you would be using Sarrukhs in FR, where they are a fucking myth, and your DM will tell you, point blank, that you can't copy Sarrukh abilities because you don't even know what a Sarrukh is and they wouldn't let you find out because... fuck you, magic.

By the time you've encountered and (ideally) defeated a Sarrukh, the campaign is over because you've beaten the Ur-Villain and Epic Levels suck balls. So you can declare, to yourself, while masturbating, that your character becomes Pun-Pun after the campaign is over, but nobody cares.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:46 pm

wot, if you you aren't going to say even a single fucking thing that is even remotely relevant to what I have said in this thread then don't quote a sentence out of my post to make it look like your aimless blithering is a response to my post.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:21 pm

Kaelik wrote:

You're fucking unhinged. WTF kind of psychosis do you have, specifically, that I need to account for when I post?
The bit immediately following the quote was relevant, as in it directly addressed the quote. There were others who also pointed out the same thing, but your post just happened to have been the first one, and so was most convenient to quote. Furthermore, not only was I being quite polite, I was actually conceding your point. You delusional fucking idiot.
I then triple-fucking-spaced before continuing my post. WTF else do you want? I guess I could have inserted an actual page-break (which I have now gone back and done -- you're welcome), or possibly did multiple posts (but that's just ignores proper etiquette).

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:38 pm

wotmaniac wrote:WTF else do you want? I guess I could have inserted an actual page-break (which I have now gone back and done -- you're welcome), or possibly did multiple posts (but that's just ignores proper etiquette).

Another option would be to use actual words to recognize that your statement was completely without even the faintest shred of similarity to my post.

For example, instead of saying "Alright, let's look at this from a slightly different angle:" you could have said: "Alright, let's talk about something completely different."

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:11 pm

wotmaniac is being so stupid I can barely parse it.

"If we assume that this rule is complete, then we have to find the completeness in how the rule relates to the surrounding context. The surrounding context doesn't actually complete the rule. Therefore, the designers intended for you to complete this rule by pulling an imaginary hypothetical list that doesn't actually exist out of your ass and draw from it when determining which abilities Manipulate Form grants."

That's your fucking demonstration that the rule actually is complete? I literally cannot follow your train of thought, it is beyond incoherent.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:13 pm

Wait, no, sorry. It's assuming that the rule is complete (an assumption made for no fucking reason), the specific completion can only be found in the rule's context. Except the specific completion cannot be found in the rule's context, so therefore you must complete the rule by pulling a nonexistent list out of your butthole.

What the fuck is that even supposed to demonstrate? That, if you make an incredibly specious assumption, your hypothetical master list of abilities is relevant? What conversation do you think you're having?

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:54 pm

It was an exercise in inductive reasoning in an attempt to get to the RAI of Manipulate Form. (or maybe deductive? wtf-ever)
The actual fucking reason for making that base assumption was to provide some framework for said reasoning; a direction, if you will.
This isn't exactly ground-breaking theorycraft -- why are you having such a hard time following it?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:10 am

wotmaniac wrote:This isn't exactly ground-breaking theorycraft -- why are you having such a hard time following it?

Because you are an idiot and your incoherent ramblings demonstrate your poor communication skill.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:14 am

Is WotManic seriously arguing that the Manipulate Form ability is complete because shit he made up out of whole cloth to fill in missing parameters in the actual written text completes it? That's a level of Oberoni fallacy I haven't seen in a long, long time.

-Username17

Aharon · Post by **Aharon** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:44 pm

I don't really know who has what position in this discussion. I'll try to summarize, please correct me if I'm wrong.

RAW:

Frank: The ability misses parameters, therefore, RAW, it doesn't work.
Kaelik: The ability misses parameters, therefore, RAW, it doesn't work.
wotmaniac: I'm not clear on what you think the ability should do RAW, without taking RAI into account.
Original poster (Khan the destroyer?): The ability is vague, but complete. You can make up any ability you please.

RAI:

Frank, Kaelik: think it doesn't matter
wotmaniac: Taking into account the rest of the sourcebook, it was likely meant to be able to give species new powers.
OP: Just handing out "You win" would be too powerful and easy, so it should be limited to existing abilities.

Did I get the positions right, or did I misunderstand somebody?

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm

I"ll strip mine down for you ...
* RAW: MF gives you wtf-ever you happen to pull out of your ass, so long as you slap (Ex), (Su), or (Sp) on it.
* RAI: MF is an omni "plot power" (see RAW) born out of some superfluous fluff that was really just someone trying to justify their paycheck .... but who's execution was written by complete fucktards; and said demonstrated fucktardedness is too multi-layered to describe in this summary.

All my other rambling was simply me trying to figure out various ways to connect the dots for the reasoning-impaired. I feel like I'm trying to explain why water is wet.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:55 pm

wotmaniac wrote:I feel like I'm trying to explain why water is wet.

The only thing common to all your problems is you.

If you think you are making brilliant insightful arguments for what should be blindingly obvious, and literally everyone else thinks you are making completely incoherent ramblings with no sense to them at all, that is some pretty probative evidence that you are bad at communicating and the problem is with you.

zugschef · Post by **zugschef** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:27 am

well, to me it's pretty obvious that khan deliberatly abused an error in editing by interpreting it in a totally silly way just to serve his purposes of showing off "teh mad op skillz!(tm)".

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:09 am

Speaking of things that should not be. since I can't be bother to wade through the rulings on Polymorph. Is it possible to Awaken yourself if you Polymorph into an animal.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:25 am

Lord Mistborn wrote:Speaking of things that should not be. since I can't be bother to wade through the rulings on Polymorph. Is it possible to Awaken yourself if you Polymorph into an animal.

You can, but it is one of those things like the Vampire Template. More power now for shit later.