What stories are impossible to tell in RPGs?

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:31 pm

Slade wrote:So yeah, Hermoine wins. Harry gets the recognition and fame because she was a mud blood though.

How long do you think that lasts as we progress through the other six books in the same fashion? Or when we start encountering quests that have the requirement: must be named Harry Potter (or Neville Longbottom) to continue.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:09 pm

Surprisingly long! Harry spends an awful lot of time leaning on everyone else to do everything, and only shows up to trip the quest triggers marked "Must be Harry Potter to continue" which require that and only that. This teaches us all a valuable lesson about friendship.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:46 pm

John Magnum wrote:Surprisingly long! Harry spends an awful lot of time leaning on everyone else to do everything, and only shows up to trip the quest triggers marked "Must be Harry Potter to continue" which require that and only that. This teaches us all a valuable lesson about friendship.

And then he killed Voldemort.

K · Post by K » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:01 pm

Saxony wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:I don't think any actual expert will accuse police and courtroom shows of being knowledge porn. That's like calling Star Trek science porn.

The forensics and law that we see in those things makes about as much sense as reversing the polarity of the neutron field. It's bullshit designed to look and sound plausible and dramatic, but any actual expert will break down in tears at the inaccuracies.
I agree entirely, but that's not the point. The shows are meant for consumption by people who don't know this.

To be fair, actual police procedures and courts are based on bullshit science.

Like literally all modern forensics is worthless. To name a few things, fingerprints aren't terribly unique, most DNA testing actually performed is not accurate enough to pinpoint individuals, innocent people give a startling number of false confessions, eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable, criminal profiling is actually less accurate than having untrained college students work up a profile, and lie-detector tests are a carnival trick with no ability to detect deception.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:04 pm

Wrathzog wrote:
John Magnum wrote:Surprisingly long! Harry spends an awful lot of time leaning on everyone else to do everything, and only shows up to trip the quest triggers marked "Must be Harry Potter to continue" which require that and only that. This teaches us all a valuable lesson about friendship.
And then Voldemort killed himself while Harry gazed on vapidly.

FTFY.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:30 pm

Saxony wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:I don't think any actual expert will accuse police and courtroom shows of being knowledge porn. That's like calling Star Trek science porn.

The forensics and law that we see in those things makes about as much sense as reversing the polarity of the neutron field. It's bullshit designed to look and sound plausible and dramatic, but any actual expert will break down in tears at the inaccuracies.
I agree entirely, but that's not the point. The shows are meant for consumption by people who don't know this.

Yes, and RPGs are also meant to be played by people who don't know this. Thus, you can totally play Phoenix Wright at the tabletop and no one will know any better unless they're an actual lawyer. All you really need are rules for things like yelling Objection! and pointing your finger dramatically in a manner that is somewhat plausible. The players won't know any better.

Saxony · Post by **Saxony** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:52 pm

Yeah, I also agree entirely. It just needs to seem crime-y enough, sound technical enough, and it should be entertaining.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:05 pm

Should be pointed out that the Diagnostic and Forensic portions of Trauma Team were apparently well-recieved. Diagnostic involved visual exam, talking to someone who was somewhere between "I am absolutely fine, even though I passed out earlier and am visibly shaking, how dare you keep me here!", "It's nothing, there's no need to worry about me.", "Yeah, I'm losing weight, coughing, and have strange spots. It's nothing serious, right?" and finally "New symptom to report, sir!" and spot-the-difference with scanning images that definitely resemble the x-ray images I've seen. Then matching up identified symptoms with a list of diseases by symptom (though the bit where you need every symptom on the list is probably not in line with actual medical practice).

Forensics involved a similar process, using CSI tools, looking around, suspect interrogation (recorded, not coroner impersonating an interrogator), and ghosts calling your cellphone (Trauma Team is a very strange game in parts).

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:14 pm

Blade wrote: A rebours by Joris-Karl Huysmans has a character, but nothing much happens. It's mostly about what the main character likes and dislikes, so this can also be hard to do in a RPG.

I'd play an A rebours RPG. Play it hard. Fun fact: I namechecked it in a rap song I did a while back.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:23 am

Anything that involves the protagonists being duped by writer's fiat. No quicker way to lose your player's trust than forcing them through an idiot plot.

"The Five Man Band." It is safe to assume that most players you'll meet are there to be The Hero rather than playing second fiddle.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:08 pm

Dogbert wrote:"The Five Man Band." It is safe to assume that most players you'll meet are there to be The Hero rather than playing second fiddle.

I agree, but not for that reason. The average group's definition of "Be the Hero" is likely to be "Be able to play my character and have a meaningful effect on the plot", and that's vague enough that you can do that wherever you are on the Leader/Lancer/Big Guy/Smart Guy/Chick spectrum. The reason you can't reasonably expect to do this is that the players have to create the group with that dynamic in mind, and frankly, I've had a hard time getting players to consider anything about what the rest of the party is doing at all, much less a narrative role that not even all genre writers take into account. And that's not even considering how roleplay considerations often take a session or two to settle in.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:53 pm

Slade wrote: 1st Movie:
Ron:
Won chess match

Hermoine:
Defeats troll
Spellcrafts Snape is casting a spell (failed vs Q) when Harry playing the broom game.
figured out correct spells with dark plant area: blue fire
Figured out potion room

Harry: got love skin so Q couldn't touch him.
Flute action to defeat Fluffy
Used a mirror like boss

So yeah, Hermoine wins. Harry gets the recognition and fame because she was a mud blood though.

Compare the book though:

Ron: Beats the first troll over the head with a levitated club, IDs the Invisibility cloak, gets his older brother to smuggle a dragon out of the castle, beats the evil chess set.
Hermoine: Notices the trapdoor, gets Hagrid to tell them how to beat Fluffy, beats the evil plant trap, guesses correctly on the poison puzzle* and drags Ron's KO'd body to the nurse.
Harry: Gets his wand covered in troll snot, gets on the wizard basketball team as an 11 year old, wins a bunch of wizard basketball matches, plays the flute to put Fluffy to sleep, catches the magic key on his broom, gets the stone out of the magic mirror and kills Quirrelmort with his magic love hands.

*The riddle was actually non-decidable with the information given, but apparently she didn't notice, so there was a 50% chance she could have gotten Harry killed by giving him the poison bottle instead.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:59 pm

Harry also learns to fly LIKE A BOSS.
Harry also through out the books takes on the Stigma and Attempted assassination attempts. So, he's taking on the leadership role

The Sad part is in book 1 Ron is setup as being Magic World Street Smart, and Good at Chess (ie good at Strategy) and in all the later books he becomes, Whipping Boy for Laughs. It's really rather sad.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:18 pm

sabs wrote:Harry also through out the books takes on the Stigma and Attempted assassination attempts. So, he's taking on the leadership role

What? How does "surviving assassination attempts" equate to "taking on a leadership role"? Is this some bullshit "persecution = virtuousness" thing?

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:16 pm

Grek wrote:Compare the book though:

Ron: Beats the first troll over the head with a levitated club, IDs the Invisibility cloak, gets his older brother to smuggle a dragon out of the castle, beats the evil chess set.
Hermoine: Notices the trapdoor, gets Hagrid to tell them how to beat Fluffy, beats the evil plant trap, guesses correctly on the poison puzzle* and drags Ron's KO'd body to the nurse.
Harry: Gets his wand covered in troll snot, gets on the wizard basketball team as an 11 year old, wins a bunch of wizard basketball matches, plays the flute to put Fluffy to sleep, catches the magic key on his broom, gets the stone out of the magic mirror and kills Quirrelmort with his magic love hands.

Harry doesn't kill Quirrelmort in the book; he's actually losing to him in it even though he's burning him badly. Dumbledore enters just as Harry's passing out, and Voldemort is aware that in Quirrel's burned body he can't beat Dumbledore so he leaves Quirrel to die.

In gaming terms, Harry does some burn damage by DM fiat and thus is able to use delaying tactics against the BBEG long enough for a far higher level DMPC to arrive and beat the crap out of the weakened BBEG.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:26 pm

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:
Dogbert wrote:"The Five Man Band." It is safe to assume that most players you'll meet are there to be The Hero rather than playing second fiddle.
I agree, but not for that reason. The average group's definition of "Be the Hero" is likely to be "Be able to play my character and have a meaningful effect on the plot", and that's vague enough that you can do that wherever you are on the Leader/Lancer/Big Guy/Smart Guy/Chick spectrum. The reason you can't reasonably expect to do this is that the players have to create the group with that dynamic in mind, and frankly, I've had a hard time getting players to consider anything about what the rest of the party is doing at all, much less a narrative role that not even all genre writers take into account. And that's not even considering how roleplay considerations often take a session or two to settle in.

Doesn't everyone usually want to play the Sixth Ranger? It's not uncommon to have a team of five Tommy Olivers.

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:13 am

Ugh, I hate those. No better recipe for pointless party dysfunction.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:12 am

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:The average group's definition of "Be the Hero" is likely to be "Be able to play my character and have a meaningful effect on the plot", and that's vague enough that you can do that wherever you are on the Leader/Lancer/Big Guy/Smart Guy/Chick spectrum.

Okay, I guess I could have been more specific.

By "The Hero" I meant a player that's going to be fellated non-stop by MC, making the whole game revolve around him to the exclusion of everyone else (turning the other players into his de-facto sidekicks) and otherwise giving him the Vanilla Action Hero treatment where he has plot armor and succeeds at everything he does (contrary to the sidekicks who have to earn their victories, can die, etc).