How D&D like is Conan?

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:36 pm

I just watched the first two movies again and I must say it really feels like low level D&D to me.
When Arnie says things like: "what good is a sword versus sorcery?" or "but there is magic in this game, I'd like to be able to fight it with magic"
Can anything feel more D&D like?

-Edit: To make it clear only talking about the 82 & 84 movies. Not the books or the new movie that is so incredibly terrible I had to turn it off mid way.

Other things that really scream D&D to me:
The protagonists in the films are murder hobos who steal everything they can get their hands on. Who meet and instantly team up with random people who can fight.
The entire second movie is a quest to get someone to cast raise dead for them.
A wizard tower.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:19 pm

Well, yeah. Most of that stuff is low level.

There isn't much sword & sorcery from that era that's mid to high level.

I guess if you qualify Elric as Sword & sorcery then he could be high level. Aside from that, you really have nothing.

Think about it. Conan, Solomon Kane, Fafhrd & Grey Mouser -- they don't deal with crazy magic. It's all seriously low level. Sure you might see artifacts but that's about it.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:29 pm

Karl Wagner's Kane is pretty solidly mid-level S&S.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:48 pm

I haven't read a lot of Kane. But even Kane seems to mostly deal with small time adventures rather than anything on a grand scale.

S&S seems to really not be suited for anything over level 5.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:51 pm

Dragon Slayer is kind of mid level, not the main cast but Ulric and the Dragon seem mid level.

As for Conan, as much as it seems like 3.5, it is even more like 1e. From what I understand in 1e clear heroes where pretty rare so you had a bunch of murder hobos running around that might kill an evil wizard. Although usually it was to loot them and not for revenge. Also the temple scene at the beginning (with the giant snake) and the scenes with them in the Thulsa Doom's temple do seem like some of the best dungeon crawls on screen.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:17 pm

Ultimately it comes down to Conan being specific and D&D being a kitchen sink. There's some overlap on the Venn diagram but then D&D wanders off and only comes back once it's invited a few modrons and liches to the party whereas in Conan tier you can expect that dinosaurs to be way rare puzzle monsters that require locating the MC fiat poisonous plants and abusing the reach rules to defeat.

Juton wrote:As for Conan, as much as it seems like 3.5, it is even more like 1e.

I would agree with that insofar that old-school D&D parties seemed to be more open to the idea of always bothering to bring a few red shirts along so they can warn the party of things via dying noisily.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:28 pm

Cynic wrote:I haven't read a lot of Kane. But even Kane seems to mostly deal with small time adventures rather than anything on a grand scale.

I'm pretty sure that in every Kane novel he makes a creditable attempt to take over the world. Most every other human is low-level, but Kane outclasses them all handily and only considers them a threat in unreasonable numbers. The shit that makes him sit up and take notice are enormous robo-kraken, time/space demons, and city-scale Lovecraftian entities.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:33 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Cynic wrote:I haven't read a lot of Kane. But even Kane seems to mostly deal with small time adventures rather than anything on a grand scale.
I'm pretty sure that in every Kane novel he makes a creditable attempt to take over the world. Most every other human is low-level, but Kane outclasses them all handily and only considers them a threat in unreasonable numbers. The shit that makes him sit up and take notice are enormous robo-kraken, time/space demons, and city-scale Lovecraftian entities.

So, I've apparently read something totally not Kane or there are stories you might not know about. I'll wager on the former than the latter.

The story I can remember at the moment is Kane hiding in a village from a group of mercenaries while carrying a guerrilla war against them. I'll check him out of the library when I have a chance.

Also how is robo-kraken, time/space demons and Elder gods mid level?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:03 am

Cynic wrote:So, I've apparently read something totally not Kane or there are stories you might not know about. I'll wager on the former than the latter.

The story I can remember at the moment is Kane hiding in a village from a group of mercenaries while carrying a guerrilla war against them. I'll check him out of the library when I have a chance.

That's probably one of the short stories. I haven't read any of those, which is why I specified the novels.

Also how is robo-kraken, time/space demons and Elder gods mid level?

Yeah, the reason Kane sits up and takes notice is because those things are badder than he is. But those are the things that are badder than he is, not sorcerers or tyrannosaurs.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:30 am

I can't speak to the Karl Wagner Solomon Kane stories, but by Angel's description, they sound not at all like Robert E Howard's.

I've read so far as I know, every Robert E Howard Solomon Kane story. Kane is usually going out righting some wrong that he stumbles upon and his preferred method of righting wrongs is to kill every fucker that is on the wronging end.

Big Deal/Supernatural stuff Kane deals with:
• An allip that he wrestles with to a stalemate, and then brings the guy who murdered it so that it can finally pass on by murdering him back.
• A chained up undead skeleton that kills a psycho who wanted to kill Solomon
• Bird-man/Harpy monsters terrorize a lost land in Africa. He kills em, though a 1v1 fight is no cakewalk.
• Vampires terrorize a land in Africa. He kills em, though a 1v1 fight is not an easy thing.
• He gains help from a necromancer juju priest on a couple occasions. More accurately, Kane is N'Longa's cats-paw used to smite evil.
• While captured by some slavers, they discover a pit with a buried ancient horror and unleash it. Kane smites it with his macguffinstick that he got from N'Longa.

In every case it is at best a local/regional struggle and Kane isn't ever jonesing for rewards or power.

I know of absolutely no Kane story where he remotely attempts any sort of world-taking-over endeavor. He is just a bad-ass human. He from time to time will kill groups of mooks, and then have fights with other bad-ass humans, and Kane does not always win those fights. Without N'Longa's help, Kane would presumably have failed and died and in about a half-dozen stories. In fact the only supernatural foe he would have prevailed against would only be the allip, and he didn't feel too good about that 'win' anyway.

If you want some Kane stories to read online... here's a link. It's not all of em, but it's a fair chunk.

Now, Conan... well Conan is basically a Solomon Kane with ambitions (Kane really doesn't have any ambitions, he just wanders around ruining bad people's day), but without the self-righteousness, guns or a necromancer buddy. Conan's usual defense against magic is being tough, lucky, and having the special ability "barbarian bloodline" which makes him resistant to mind control which works better on everyone else.

When I get some time I'll lay out standard challenges that Conan faces. They tend to range from traps, dangerous animals, low level wizards, vampires, constructs, magical beasts, and of course other men at arms.

You could simulate Howard's Conan and Howard's Solomon Kane with low level D&D. Say levels 3-9. The only reason we get level 9 is because N'Longa is unfair and has Magic Jar. Ignoring N'Longa, we're more like level 5 or under for Kane and that's Conan's usual stomping ground too.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:34 am

Wagner's Kane is not Solomon Kane.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:56 am

A lot of the old Conan stories had Conan partnering up with some remarkable individual.

Who then dies in the story whereas Conan lives.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:25 am

All I really know about Conan is that the original stories are racist as fuck so hopefully not at all.

Also remember that the original D&D magic is from Dying Earth which is probably why caster supremacy has been a thing form day one (Vancian magic the original flavor hilariously also has five minute workdays)

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:29 am

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Wagner's Kane is not Solomon Kane.

Ahhhh, I see. I got waylaid in thoughts since Conan was the first post, and then Cynic mentioned Solomon Kane in post 2, I didn't even imagine that Kane. Gah.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:04 pm

Has anyone looked at the other typical S&S examples? I know Barsoom is vaguely scifi, it seems like it can fall under this as well. The John Carter stories by Edgar Burroughs might qualify for mid-level fantasy.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:36 pm

John Carter's main claim to mid-level is his ability to astral project from Earth to Mars. His trained telepathy only gets used as a universal translator (stern glares can give more info than "I am angry") and to be able to lie like a normal person. The super strength he gains on the planet makes him only marginally better at stabbing people than Conan. Interestingly enough, the movie version actually makes his leaping and stabbing noticeably better; the only things that actually threaten him in a fight are creatures like King Kong, while in the books there were several martians (or trio of) that sword-played him to a stand-still.

The whole melee vs ranged debate is circumvented in that setting, as Martian honor strictly forbids attacking someone in a manner they cannot match (skill level ignored); so you never shoot someone unless they can shoot back, and you can only stab someone if they have a sword. Even the most dire villains stick to this code.

I swear that his Diplomacy is mid-level at times; his argument consisting of "I implore you to reconsider" getting a rousing success.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:27 am

There was an interview I read on the 1982 Conan, I think with director John Milius. He mentioned that the feeling for Conan's magic that it was subtle and that it was 'culture'.

Thulsa Doom's snake arrow wasn't 'sorcery' to Thulsa Doom, it was simply a technique that he knew.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite movies, and Howard's Conan books are a great read.

violence in the media · Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:03 pm

OgreBattle wrote:There was an interview I read on the 1982 Conan, I think with director John Milius. He mentioned that the feeling for Conan's magic that it was subtle and that it was 'culture'.

Thulsa Doom's snake arrow wasn't 'sorcery' to Thulsa Doom, it was simply a technique that he knew.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite movies, and Howard's Conan books are a great read.

Yeah, Howard mentions something to that effect in a couple of the stories. People like the Stygians are specifically more vulnerable to the charms and spells of Stygian wizards, and that idea gets extended to all of civilization. Basically, in any society that has a strong, codified tradition of deferring to authority (especially if it's tyrannical) the people are more vulnerable to magic. That's why Conan shrugs a lot of that shit off--because organizing Cimmerians is like trying to herd cats.