Pathfinder

[Dean]

As someone who has played both synthesist and regular summoner they are both tons of fun and they are both pretty powerful. The regular summoner is unquestionably more powerful but people generally feel like the synthesist is more powerful because it's all in one hulking spellcasting dude.

But summoner in general is just awesome, their spell list is full of the greatest hits, their eidolon totally can multi-arm rip people to shreds even in synthesist form. They're the best thing Pathfinder has done so far.

[Voss]

I suppose it depends which direction you're looking at it from.

From the Paizo perspective of 'We fixed things by giving fighters +1 bonuses, barbarians rage pools and monks ki pools, and wizards just _more_,' summoners are one of the worst things they've ever done, up there with alchemists > rogues, and continuing the 5th level tax on sorcerers and making oracles suffer the same thing.

It joins the 'have cake and eat it' ranks of classes, while most of the original classes (and a few of the additional classes, like the cavalier) are still wondering why they get moldy bread that is simply shaped like cake.

[Mistborn]

^That. Playing monsters in general in Pathfinder is the straight up business. By the rules playing a monster works like you took X levels in that monster where X is equal to its CR, then X is reduced by 1 for every 3 class levels you take after that.

So since monsters are made of arbitrarium anyways and many monsters have abilities that straight up say "You count as a 6th level Sorceror" or whatever it is very common that by choosing to play as a given monster at a given level you are choosing to just get many free levels on top of your levels. Yo Dawg.

This is beautiful, it's like non-associated class levels except for players. For the first time in my life I actually want to play Pathfinder.

[Dean]

I suppose it depends which direction you're looking at it from.

Nothing Pathfinder did or will do will actually help people who want to play "Fighters" in any way. With that as an accepted fact I am looking at it from the direction of a class that is fun to play and can take on challenges of the appropriate level.

I remember some argument about whether or not the Summoner was actually able to compete at the Same Game Test. At the time of that argument no one built a character to run through the SGT, but since I can confidently say there is no doubt in my mind the Summoner would crush it if anyone still has their doubts I would definitely be willing to write a test char up.

This is beautiful, it's like non-associated class levels except for players. For the first time in my life I actually want to play Pathfinder.

It's something. Right now I'm playing in a game and my 13th level Lamia character has a +16 BAB, 10 Caster levels, AND 10d6 sneak attack, AND still had enough juice to waste a level in Shadowdancer for hide in plain sight. Those free levels let you get your fingers in everything.

[CapnTthePirateG]

That Lamia makes me want to cry. So...beautiful...

[Avoraciopoctules]

Pathfinder lets me play the ridiculous monster PCs I always wanted to. It's gonna be hilarious when the meatspace game I'm playing in hits level 10ish and I can start busting out genies and oni instead of basic elementals.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Are there any undead templates a character can acquire earlier than the level 11 required for lich? And how does gaining a template even work in pathfinder, since they dumped the Level Adjustment thing?

Okay, you want to see how crazy things can get? Let's assume you payed character wealth to a necromancer to give you the template by casting a spell.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spell ... ate-undead

Create Undead gives you a choice between Juju Zombie and Skeletal Champion at Caster Level 11.

Skeletal Champion gives you +1 CR, and 2 free hit dice. Juju Zombie gives a bunch of fun immunities.

[Juton]

I remember some argument about whether or not the Summoner was actually able to compete at the Same Game Test. At the time of that argument no one built a character to run through the SGT, but since I can confidently say there is no doubt in my mind the Summoner would crush it if anyone still has their doubts I would definitely be willing to write a test char up.

If I remember correctly, someone did stat up a 15th level summoner for the SGT but there was disagreement over whether magic jar and planar binding where acceptable strategies. I believe the debate centered on whether a character was really completing the SGT if they used dominated/magic jar'd/planar binded monsters to do the work for them, which is kind of the summoner's shtick. Their Eidolon and summoned monsters where fair game. I would love to see a properly stated 15th level summoner though.

[Username17]

I remember some argument about whether or not the Summoner was actually able to compete at the Same Game Test. At the time of that argument no one built a character to run through the SGT, but since I can confidently say there is no doubt in my mind the Summoner would crush it if anyone still has their doubts I would definitely be willing to write a test char up.

If I remember correctly, someone did stat up a 15th level summoner for the SGT but there was disagreement over whether magic jar and planar binding where acceptable strategies. I believe the debate centered on whether a character was really completing the SGT if they used dominated/magic jar'd/planar binded monsters to do the work for them, which is kind of the summoner's shtick. Their Eidolon and summoned monsters where fair game. I would love to see a properly stated 15th level summoner though.

Yeah. The problem was that the person who statted up a 15th level Summoner just did kooky crap with Magic Jar and Planar Binding and the vague hand waving assumption that they'd be allowed to have already bound an essentially arbitrarily powerful planar army before the adventure began. And then wanted to essentially sit at home and watch their minions complete the adventure from a top-down approach like they were playing Starcraft.

And yeah, you can probably play the game that way. But at that point you're just saying "The Wizard could totally have broken the game in half a few levels ago, how about if I just shit on the game the way he could have and call myself the winner as well?" Which doesn't really tell you what would happen if you were trying to actually play a game of D&D. Since if any character starts abusing Planar Binding to send demon armies to complete quests without actually leaving their house, "the game" is over and you start again from level 1 with new characters.

-Username17

[icyshadowlord]

So I guess the question is Synthesist: The best Pathfinder character, or merely very good?

It's hands down the best melee class. If you really want an argument tell a PF fan this and substantiate it, they will go ape shit.

Could you elaborate on why they are the best melee class? I wanna sound smart while pissing off my shitty former DM.

[rasmuswagner]

So I guess the question is Synthesist: The best Pathfinder character, or merely very good?

It's hands down the best melee class. If you really want an argument tell a PF fan this and substantiate it, they will go ape shit.

Could you elaborate on why they are the best melee class? I wanna sound smart while pissing off my shitty former DM.

*More primary attacks than you. A LOT more.
*More reach than you. Or Pounce.
*More AC than you.
*Strength starts at 16, increases by +11 over 20 levels, by an additional +8 from Evolutions, and a further +16 from size, and I can wear a belt on top of that.
*I have actual skills and spells.

[Username17]

Genuinely curious: how is that a better melee machine than a Cleric or Druid?

-Username17

[Dean]

They have twice the HP of a normal character as their eidolons HP is layered on top of theirs. They have incredible stats because they can focus solely on their mental stats and have their eidolon just bring in physical stats in the mid 20's or low 30's. They have multiple arms, pounce, rend, rake, flight, teleportation, and bardic spell progression with great spells which means they can even handle complex tactical situations. And they can do this all day every day, almost like a lesser version of a DMM persist cleric.

So tons of HP, tons of attacks, big size, high damage, natural flight and teleportation and spells to solve whatever problems those considerable traits can't solve.

@Frank: I don't actually know Pathfinder's Druid rule alterations well enough to say how well they perform in comparison. But I think Synthesists are comparable meleers to Clerics. Synth-Summoners hit a little harder and a little more often but Clerics still rule the buff world. So I think it is a matter of one having slightly more offense and the other considerably more defense. Now what the Cleric could do that the Synthesist could not is to just stop doing melee which would be the actual winning move but if your desire is to punch things to death Synth does a good job even in the big leagues.

As to the 15th level SGT, I'm on board but I can't seem to find many of the monsters online. So I'll fight anything I have a monster manual for in the 15th level SGT. My build should be fairly simple, all core pathfinder rulebook so far, and I think it's simplicity ought to help the point. It'll just be a guy with a lance riding his Eidolon and I'll have the two of them pounce into whatever problem he's currently having.

[ishy]

Keep in mind SGT isn't just monster fights.

Druids no longer change their physical stats, just gain bonuses. Thus you can't dump strength any more if you want to melee.
If you go the melee route, before you gain wildshape you kind of suck.
Once you gain wildshape you rock the world.

You need an intelligent item to communicate with the party though.
And you can rock even harder depending on what items the DM allows you to wear in animal shape. Your AC might be low if you don't have a wizard to cast mage armour for you / barding.

As you gain levels you gain new wildshape options which will allow you to keep up, but at higher levels you need the areas to be big enough for your wildshape.
And at level 8 you gain the last real upgrade to your combat shapes, you mostly just gain utility shapes after that. So you start falling behind in pure melee ability.

[Username17]

Druids in Pathfinder don't make a lot of sense. They are the product of a vast litany of nerfs and buffs and I don't think even the authors knew what the hell the end point was supposed to be. Wildshape itself is based on the Beastform/Plantform/Elemental Body line of spells, and those were hit with a giant nerf stick and then confounded until they made little enough sense that people stopped using them in display builds on their forums. I mean for fuck's sake, turning into a small Earth Elemental gives you a size bonus to Strength. What the shitfuck?

The way you get stuff out of Wildshape in Pathfinder is to turn into a house cat for the bonus Dex and then animal growth yourself back up to lynx size because the strength bonus for animal growth is no longer based on your final size. It's... weird and dumb. But still very very powerful.

They have incredible stats because they can focus solely on their mental stats and have their eidolon just bring in physical stats in the mid 20's or low 30's.

What level are you talking about?

-Username17

[ishy]

The way you get stuff out of Wildshape in Pathfinder is to turn into a house cat for the bonus Dex and then animal growth yourself back up to lynx size because the strength bonus for animal growth is no longer based on your final size. It's... weird and dumb. But still very very powerful.

-Username17

Actually no Frank spells that change your size don't work while wildshaped, see the polymorph rules.

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

[Korwin]

Wildshape itself is based on the Beastform/Plantform/Elemental Body line of spells,

Actually no Frank spells that change your size don't work while wildshaped, see the polymorph rules.

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

No clue about Pathfinder, but is Wildshape still based on Polymorph?

[Username17]

Wildshape is not a spell. It is a supernatural ability that happens to give the same bonuses as a spell that is itself in the polymorph subcategory. So you can in fact add Wildshape to an Animal Growth or Elemental Body or whatever.

Pathfinder rules are weird and terrible.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Rule negative two, Frank.

[hogarth]

No clue about Pathfinder, but is Wildshape still based on Polymorph?

Don't bother listening to what Frank says about Pathfinder; the last time he took a look at it was during the Alpha testing five years ago.

[ishy]

Wildshape is not a spell. It is a supernatural ability that happens to give the same bonuses as a spell that is itself in the polymorph subcategory. So you can in fact add Wildshape to an Animal Growth or Elemental Body or whatever.

Pathfinder rules are weird and terrible.

-Username17

This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

The way I read that is that you have the same limitations as if it was the Beast Shape spell. But I guess ymmv.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

No clue about Pathfinder, but is Wildshape still based on Polymorph?

Don't bother listening to what Frank says about Pathfinder; the last time he took a look at it was during the Alpha testing five years ago.

Care to elaborate on how he has it wrong then? It's easy to tell someone they're wrong, but harder to say something that's right yourself. Like at work today, I was told I couldn't leave a pallet somewhere, and I had to ask him where a better place to put it three times to get an answer other than "not here". And he didn't even answer me the third time until I left it where it was and started waling off. Ass.

[Istred]

The way I read that is that you have the same limitations as if it was the Beast Shape spell. But I guess ymmv.

It may have been the intention, by RAW seems to be that wildshape can be modified by size-changing spells. Note that while it is called a "polymorph effect" the rule about size mentions only "polymorph spells" - and wildshape isn't a spell.

[hogarth]

Care to elaborate on how he has it wrong then?

I'd gladly answer you in a private message, if you like.

Note: I'm not saying Frank is stupid or lazy; far from it. I'm just saying that he hasn't spent the pointless time and tedious effort to figure out the differences between 3.5E D&D and the Alpha version of Pathfinder and the final version of Pathfinder. And why would he? It's incredibly boring and time-consuming to try to sort out all of the differences for a game that he probably isn't going to play in the first place. Hell, I've played Pathfinder almost exclusively since it came out, and I'm STILL finding niggling little differences. For example, just last week someone pointed out that Pathfinder doesn't have the rule that says that spell-like abilities have the same casting time as the spells they emulate. How are you supposed to figure that out by skimming the rules?

[Prak]

The player may be interpreting shape to include number of arms/limbs.