My review of Saga

[JonSetanta]

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I prefer the SAGA artwork to most D&D publications any day. Some have the same artists, but it's the presentation and attitude that is also different.

There is no "SAGA artwork". It's 100% recycled from previous publications.

In that case I am corrected.. in.. liking that .. stuff from ... previous publications?

[NoDot]

A question on skills: by high levels, you should have every skill trained?

[Orion]

No.

You don't get ANY skills for level-up unlessyou burn feats on it.

And for most skills (computer, mechanics, treat injury, Knowledge) once you have about 2 PCs with it, there's no real incentive for anyone else to pick it up.

[Voss]

You can also get more trained skills by raising intelligence, but yeah. It sucks, particularly if you stay with a single class.

[Orion]

Nitpicking...

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Chapter 2: Species

Notable races include Humans (who are always awesome), Cereans (+2 overall to stats, but they're all mental and -2 physical; also they get to REROLL ANY INITIATIVE IF THEY FEEL LIKE IT), Duros (for sucking), Kel Dor (they get to REROLL ANY USE THE FORCE CHECK I THEY FEEL LIKE IT which also can apply to initiative), and...man, I'm bored, I'm just going to skip ahead to the next chapter.

Why do Duros suck? Compared to human, they trade a feat and 2 CON for +2 DEX, re-roll pilot, low-light vision (IIRC) and +1 to int-based skills. The DEX is easily worth a feat. Low-light vision is worth very little once you have a helmet, but I could easily see a character trading a few HP for better pilot/mechanics.

Kel Dor don't re-roll all Use The Force checks, only sense force and search feelings.

Chapter 3 - Classes


* Noble... it's an unbeatable one-level dip.

Good, not unbeatable. There all solid arguments for almost every starting class. A Soldier/Noble has 3 fewer skills than a Noble/Soldier but 3 more feats and 11 more HP. If you're wearing armor it's worth it.

A Scout starts with one fewer skill than the noble, but from an arguably better list. He also has more HP and different fats/talents. I hope I don't have to explain why a pure Jedi would be a good idea.

Really It's just Scoundrel that sort of sucks. the only reason I'd start as a scoundrel would be if I wanted both Stealth and Persuasion.

* Scoundrel. Ah, the Han Solo class. The scoundrel is...not terribly exciting. 3/4ths BAB, 4 + int trained skills, pistol proficiency and Point Blank Shot as starting feats. You've got some neat talents; Dastardly Strike is awesome, and you get Sneak Attack which is sort of gimpy due to the lack of multiple attacks in this game but still okay, but that's about it. The class is otherwise unimpressive.

Though this is a sucky starting class, it's a sweet 1- or 3-level dip. Point Blank Shot is as good as a BAB, you can pick up one or two sweet talents (dastardly strike is pretty good; Fool's Luck is extremely strong). Plus you get a good reflex score for a base class and improved skill access.

Chapter 5 - Feats
Most of these suffer from the same problem that feats in Dungeons & Dragons do (that is, they suck).

Feats that do something noticeable:

Skill Training
Skill Focus (esp. UTF or initiative)
Vehicular Combat
Double/Triple Attack
Dual Weapon Mastery
Burst Fire
Force Training
Running Attack

That's off the top of my head, and it's already better than the PHB.

Chapter 6 - The Force

Blah blah force points blah blah force powers. Basically, everyone's got a bunch of force points that they get whenever they level up. They work like action points, and sometimes jedi can trade them in to boost some power. Action points aren't really my favorite mechanic, so I'm pretty ambivalent to this part of Saga.

I do like how they make it really hard to die.

A review of the powers:

Batle Strike is one of the easiest ways to do massive damage with a blaster.

Do you have any chance of actually Force Disarming a level-appropriate Jedi?

Chapter 12 - Prestige Classes

It gets even worse than that. Even a jedi can't pick up that talent until they hit level 8. That means that for the first 7 levels of their life the dex-based jedi is going to be depending on a blaster for doing damage offensively over their lightsaber due to the blaster's superior damage dice.

Not really. A straight Jedi can't use blasters. Either you rely on Force Pwn or you use Rapid Strike to deal acceptable damage.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Scoundrels have one other use: +5 to any skill check for a whole encounter, at the cost of a standard action and a Force Point. Mid level force users are all over this.

[Voss]

Boolean- force points do stop death, but they make you unconscious instead. Which effectively means you're dead unless your buddies heal you after the fight. You can't take any actions, so can't use your second wind heal. You're effectively dead for the duration of the combat, and very dead if your allies don't win. And if someone is stopping to heal you, they're actively not killing enemies, so your party is even worse off.

@Catharz. Yep. Actually, thats useful for everyone. The only thing I'm not sure about is how that works just prior to an encounter, for buffing perception, stealth and perception checks. It strikes me as a grey area thats awesome if you can actually do it.
Just for the dick with the level 1 Ewok that has a +25 on stealth rolls. (And people tell me this system isn't mechanically fucked).

[CatharzGodfoot]

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@Catharz. Yep. Actually, thats useful for everyone. The only thing I'm not sure about is how that works just prior to an encounter, for buffing perception, stealth and perception checks. It strikes me as a grey area thats awesome if you can actually do it.
Just for the dick with the level 1 Ewok that has a +25 on stealth rolls. (And people tell me this system isn't mechanically fucked).

I basically define an "encounter" as contiguous on-screen time you probably want to explicitly track. As soon as someone is sneaking into the enemy camp or looking out for the ambush just ahead, they're in an encounter. Once you cut away from them and don't return until off-screen time has passed for them, the encounter ended and a new encounter started.

That can burn non-force users (who don't just walk around with +5 to UTF and therefore Persuade and Initiative or whatever), but that's what the game does anyway.

[Korwin]

I'll nitpick a little (on the whole, I agree):

Your level has as much to do with your statistics as your other abilities.

For those who only know D&D4 and not SWSE.
Levels in SWSE doesnt determine all, like in D&D4.
There is still an BAB.

Notable races include Humans (who are always awesome), Cereans (+2 overall to stats, but they're all mental and -2 physical; also they get to REROLL ANY INITIATIVE IF THEY FEEL LIKE IT), Duros (for sucking), Kel Dor (they get to REROLL ANY USE THE FORCE CHECK I THEY FEEL LIKE IT which also can apply to initiative), and...man, I'm bored, I'm just going to skip ahead to the next chapter.

Kel Dors reroll is very limited (as someone allready wrote in this thread).
And Duros are the fricking best race there is, if you want an Pilot.
(With speeder bikes or Zero-G-Stormtrooper Armor you can always use Vehicular Combat). I am still not shure if I count the description of Zero-G-Stormtrooper Armor as an bug or an feature...

This class is basically one level long, three if you want the fear talents, or four if you want the fear talents and a bonus feat before leaving. Anything beyond that is stupid, but it's an unbeatable one-level dip.

Disagree, 5 Lvl. if you want to give others extra standard actions.

* Soldier. You're the only class with Armor Proficiency to start (both light and medium), and you get all the Weapon Proficiencies aside from lightsabers.
[snip]
A good one-level dip before entering jedi, three if you want both armor talents.

Nitpicking about those Weapon Proficiencies, they dont get Heavy Weapons and Advanced Melee Weapons for free.

There are really other worthwile Talents in the Soldier-Trees, even if you are an Jedi. (even in the Core-Book only)

Devastating Attack (if you go Elite Trooper), Stunning Strike, Though as Nails (especially if you go into Officer)...

Multiclassing notes:
* You only take one starting feat from the new class's list when you add a new class. So basically, take Soldier as your first class.

Only if you want Armor or need it for an PRC.
Otherwise I would recommend Scout (Same Weapon Prof., no Armor [=2 Feats], 2 more Skills (=2 Feats).

Here's where things depart from the familiar embrace of Dungeons & Dragons. Here's what a skill check is:
1d20 + half your level + key ability mod + random other mods

In this case important is the Skill Focus Feat, which pushes the skills at low-level of the range (especially Use the Force).

A common House rule is to limit the bonus from the feat to half level round up.
(At least we are playing with this one.)

Chapter 5 - Feats

Most of these suffer from the same problem that feats in Dungeons & Dragons do (that is, they suck). However, in Saga, feats are the only way to get iterative attacks. Which means in practice that everyone ends up taking Double Attack and Triple Attack, and all jedi end up taking at least Dual Weapon Mastery I and II. Vehicular Combat is required by anyone who wants to be a pilot. Beyond that there are some gems, but most is crap that will be forgotten about as soon as more splatbooks come out.

That's really okay, though. Melee fighters don't depend on their feats to be competitive because casters don't exist in Star Wars, so the fact that most feats aren't all that good or isn't a problem at all.

I cant say I agree on this point.
Only very specific build can or should use Double and Triple attacks.
3 attacks at an -10 Malus, without the necessary Talents...
and you would need 5 x that Talent to negate the Malus.
There are many feats I would take instead.

Chapter 6 - The Force

Chapter 12 - Prestige Classes

On the whole I agree. (But you forgot the Force tradition Talent trees)
It would have been more elegant if the Sith Apprentice and Jedi Knight where one PRC, and the Sith/Jedi specific Talent tree an Force Tradition Talent tree (the same for the Imperial Knight PRC from the Legacy Era Campaign Setting).

Chapter 8 - Equipment

There is a very nice book "Scums & Villany" with rules for Equipment modifications.

Also now we have that condition track and damage threshold (which is equal to your fortitude defense + your size modifier, if any). That's pretty scary at low levels and not so much at high levels when your fortitude defense goes up faster than damage does.

Note the right opponent can lower the DT for his attacks to DT-10 (need two Talents, one Soldier and on Elite Trooper)

The only problem I can see right now is that missiles are still retardedly good,

Will edit somethin in, when I have the books with me...
But from memory I prefer advanced-quad-turbolasers.

If you aren't playing a jedi, there's really no reason not to play a droid.

Fully agree! (And now there is an extra PRC for those Druids.)
Also you didnt mention it, but one (the?) loop in the reprogramming rules got closed with the Errata.
(before you could reprogramm the Talent slot with any other Talent, now you must qualify for it i.e. you must have the specific PRC to qualfiy for the PRC-Talent)

Bleach- do they really intend to release more stuff? Their products page doesn't really have anything indicating a future release of any sort.

Well al little late, but the answer was: Yes, they do.

Meh. Stupid errata. but still. They can brace their rifles and still autofire at a +2, so all they need is an 8+ to do half damage (6.75). Thats still pretty good for basic mooks, though granted they probably won't kill everyone in one round anymore.

RAW they can only brace autofire-only weapons.

With force powers it goes from a 3+ to a 17+. Thats just fucked up. Most of them also don't scale in any meaningful way, so they become fairly useless as you go up in level.

How do you get that numbers? Defense scales +1 per Level, Skills +1 per two Levels.
So that should be a 3+ to 13+ or 7+ to 17+ (Yeah thats bad enough.)

Scoundrels have one other use: +5 to any skill check for a whole encounter, at the cost of a standard action and a Force Point. Mid level force users are all over this.

Got Errated into (almost) uselessnes (it doesnt stack with Skill Focus anymore).

[souran]

Just one little point on your dark side points rant:

You realize that those are probably "Lucas Lawed" in there right?

I mean, look at games like KOTOR - sure you can be "evil" but you still have to save the galaxy. Whats more, evil in KOTOR has only about 3 parts

1) Be as big a dick as you possibly can to eveybody you meet
2) Be as greedy as you possibly without actually obtaining anything that is useful
3) Talk about world domination but still make sure that everything ends up at least all right in the end.

Thats because its star wars and the lucas law is that the bad guys lose and if their are irredemable they die, if they are redeemable they are redeemed. The galaxy still gets saved.

Lots of Lucas arts games have "dark side" stuff but it never is really evil stuff. Whatsmore, the endings where you go to the dark side always also indicate that while you may rule the whole universe with an iron fist, you are UNHAPPY about it.

So don't bitch to wizards about darkside pionts. That gripe should be aimed at the skywalker ranch.

[Korwin]

The only problem I can see right now is that missiles are still retardedly good,

Will edit somethin in, when I have the books with me...
But from memory I prefer advanced-quad-turbolasers.

Did'nt look it up (forgot), but I think I remember the big disadvantage of missiles.

1. They need lots of Emplacement Points.
2. They have limited ammunition.

If money isnt important (and money shouldn't be important - just steal a ship and sell it) use turbolasers instead of missiles.
You get more of them into an ship (and up to 11d10 x 5 damage).

[Nicklance]

Any review of The Force Unleashed?

[Fuchs]

Not a review of Force Unleashed, I just skimmed the thing, but I don't like the "if playing a jedi you will die at the climax of the campaign. The GM should plan your death ahead and make sure it's memorable." rule in there.

[A Man In Black]

Not a review of Force Unleashed, I just skimmed the thing, but I don't like the "if playing a jedi you will die at the climax of the campaign. The GM should plan your death ahead and make sure it's memorable." rule in there.

There's a lot of that in any Dark Times ROTS-ANH game, it's not specific to the Force Unleashed book (which is just the latest Dark Times sourcebook). When you have an era defined by the absence of the Jedi, either you give canon the middle finger or you don't play Jedi.

[A Man In Black]

Incidentally, it looks like Saga's being taken out behind the woodshed.

[Surgo]

Not a review of Force Unleashed, I just skimmed the thing, but I don't like the "if playing a jedi you will die at the climax of the campaign. The GM should plan your death ahead and make sure it's memorable." rule in there.

There's a lot of that in any Dark Times ROTS-ANH game, it's not specific to the Force Unleashed book (which is just the latest Dark Times sourcebook). When you have an era defined by the absence of the Jedi, either you give canon the middle finger or you don't play Jedi.

Isn't the whole point of roleplaying to give canon the middle finger?

As for the ending of Saga: Thank God

[A Man In Black]

Isn't the whole point of roleplaying to give canon the middle finger?

As for the ending of Saga: Thank God

Yeah, but the license means no explicitly giving the canon the finger in print. Canon first, then lots of suggestions on how to change it (which Saga did decently).

Now, why are you thanking God for the death of SW Saga?

[Surgo]

Because it was shit, and whenever a shit line ends it is good for the world. However microscopically.

[A Man In Black]

Because it was shit, and whenever a shit line ends it is good for the world. However microscopically.

Yeah, I figured that you didn't like it. Would you be willing to share your reasons with the class?

[Surgo]

Uh, did you read the very first post of this thread?

[A Man In Black]

Uh, did you read the very first post of this thread?

orite, you wrote the OP.

DISREGARD THAT I SUCK COCKS

[Korwin]

Any review of The Force Unleashed?

Quite a while since I looked into it. Do you have specific questions?

From the top of my head:

Force Unleashed had the Unleashed Feat to explain the things the Secred Apprentice did in the game.
Basically you could with the feat, use your Destiny points for more things.
Either you get the feat free or you should ignore it.

Races: Togorian an large Race with an Net-Relfex-Mod of +/- 0 (-1 Large size, +1 Racial Bonus to Reflex)
Yarkura the only Race with +2 Wis and +2 Cha (Force Mage Race).

PRC's: 2 out of 6 useable. Second build uses both classes


Here a Thread, whats in there.