Pathfinder

[ishy]

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nv6

Dimension Door: If the caster brings other creatures with him when he casts the spell, are the passengers unable to take any other actions until their next turn, or is that just for the caster?

That restriction only applies to the caster.

So you can't charge, but the eidolon probably can.
Though you can also take a feat chain where with 3 out of 4 feats or something you can still take actions.
- Edit: I was wrong, first feat in the chain: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-f ... al-agility

[magnuskn]

Which brings me to another question: how good is the Conjurer if you don't use a bunch of dubious interpretations that are individually and collectively not going to fly at an actual table?

-Username17

Personally, I would also very much like this question to be answered.

Conjuration is one of the best schools for Wizards, but I don't think I need to tell you guys that. ^^

So, it comes down to the school abilities. The summons stay 1/2 Wizard class level in rounds longer than they ought to, which means that at higher levels you might be able to use them for two fights, if the party hurries enough.

Acid dart is pretty meh, however you can replace it by taking the Teleportation focused school from the APG, which is AWESOME. You get instead the Shift supernatural ability, which lets you teleport 5 feet per two Wizard levels as a swift action, 3+INT bonus times per day.

What this effectively means is that you can reposition around the battlefield while still being able to move and cast normally. More importantly, it means that if you get grappled, you are not screwed, which is normally one of the main problems Wizards in Pathfinder face. Since Shift is a supernatural ability, you do not need to make the normally impossible to succeed at concentration check you would have to roll otherwise.

Dimensional Steps is another teleportation ability, which gives you a short range dimension door, usable multiple times per day, as a standard action and which is a spell-like ability. Not too shabby, either.

[Username17]

Also, neither you nor anyone else can take any further actions on the same turn after DDing, quickened or not (unless PF changed that at some point, but I don't think they did.)

They did not. I have no idea how a Summoner would use a swift action to teleport in combat and follow it up with a charge. Not that it would help very much if they did - you'd still have to teleport your huge ass into an empty 15' cube and then move in a straight line through completely empty space towards your target.

It's just not going to fucking happen. If the enemy has more than 8 mooks you just aren't going to get a first turn charge. It simply isn't going to happen.

-Username17

[Dr_Noface]

EDIT:

[echoVanguard]

Also, neither you nor anyone else can take any further actions on the same turn after DDing, quickened or not (unless PF changed that at some point, but I don't think they did.)

They did not. I have no idea how a Summoner would use a swift action to teleport in combat and follow it up with a charge.

The Dimensional Agility line of feats allows you to continue making actions after using a teleportation ability, as well as the ability to use teleportation as part of a charge and as a swift action during a full attack.

By declaring a charge attack against an opponent within range and using Dimensional Assault and combining that charge with an ability that granted a full attack, such as Pounce, you could conceivably charge right past an army of mooks and wail on your target as long as there is a space big enough to accommodate you within attack range.

echo

[Kaelik]

Yeah, the idea that you can teleport in and attack with a Huge mount is a joke.

A Huge mount takes up 15ft cube. With eight minions flying in the air with you it becomes literally impossible to make such a charge.

If the main boss is on the ground and has flying minions he can do the same thing with four.

If there is a ceiling short enough then he can do it with four non flying minions.

[Dean]

Q&A time.

Q: How did you get barkskin
A: It's a 2nd level spell for me, I didn't write it down apparently, but it's in all my other notes. Just a typo.

Q: How are you going after D-Door
A: Illegally! Yeah my Eidolon can still go after a dimension door but I can't, so that's illegal. Ishy's nicely provided a link above. However since I left a feat slot open I'll just pretend that I took Dimensional Agility with it, which would make everything I did there hunky dorey.

Q: What's Rake's deal?
A: Rake is a special Eidolon thing which is slightly different from regular rake for no reason. The Eidolon ability is written in full and it's better than the universal power.

Q: Lance charges don't work with pounce in PF
A: I didn't know that. Then my charging damage would change to 6d6+84 for the first attack and 2d6+28 for the other 3. Good catch, that matters. Luckily as I mentioned my entire actual characters build is just sorta thrown together to be there, he's very much a sidekick.

Q: You'll never get your big dumb monster in a fight you idiot!
A: See I don't know how true this is. Very few people have 8 flying minions to waste on a permanent spherical shield, and consider we've got 15ft reach on our side we can get in the moment we get any opportunity at all. But if it's a low roof or a small room and a circle of minions around a boss then I can't fucking interact with it. At all. So I guess that princess gets killed or whatever, but the only fight this is even relevant too is the Priestess. If someone wants to stat out the specifics of troops, defenses, and terrain I'm completely willing to post strategy and see what happens but I really don't think that fight is anything close to a definite loss. Considering my ability to summon minions all I need is for a single minion to go down or to be out of place and I can smash her. I accept that it's a complex defensive scenario and that the tunnels of the Underdark is basically the worst place in the world for my character to be but I don't really want to fight Schrodingers Drow here. If she's got listed defenses I will see what of my many capabilities can beat her. If she exists in a medium tunnel at all times then I just couldn't go on that mission at all, and never would have taken the job. So if the mission was "Fit into a confined space" I'll auto lose it but even IF so I'm fine because I'm still operating on 6 wins and 2 losses.

[Juton]

If minions are really a problem there is probably a way to bullrush/overrun/trample the minions to get to the real target. Also, if a Summoner could go ethereal with a ghost touch weapon they could sail through most minions and attack as normal.

[Dean]

Alright I'm gonna fly through a few more of the SGT fights today. Continuing from the bottom up.

Beat 2 Beholders Bitch
I fly through the use of magic which they can shut down and between the two of them they have about 20 attacks a round. Sleep in particular is a killer for me as my monster's will save is a +8 making it basically a 50/50 proposition that I lose my monster every round. Even if I can explode one of them the other still probably beats me. Loss.

Lava Forest with Badgers, mushrooms.
I have overland flight, fire resistance 30, and protection from energy as well as the ability to make my Eidolon immune to fire or to give him Fast Healing 2 through Evolution Surge. I can also intermittently summon Fire Elementals if we need to search through the forest for some reason. I think I would fly overhead and cast Evo-surge to give my Eidolon Fire Immunity and Flight when we needed to interact with the woods and just fly above having him handle it. Victory.

12 Medusa Archers on Hellcats
Between the Archers and the Hellcats this group outputs enough damage to take me down in a single round. Luckily almost all of their attacks are off the RNG, so I should be alright. The next problem is making a dozen saves every round the fight goes on and hoping for no 1's. I don't really have a good answer for that. My best bet I think would be to fly or dimension door away, get rid of my eidolon, and then summon up a dozen Erinyes or Shadow Demons. Shadow Demons are incorporeal which is nice but Erinyes are flying teleporting ranged attackers so if they targetted the Medusa's exclusively they could burn through them really quickly (+15/+10 full attack for 14 avg damage per attack Vs AC 15 and 33 health) and then I could mop up the hellcats. But we're talking a dozen rounds of setup and combat there, so I'm shaky about this. All in all if I survive the first round and these guys aren't in a closet I'll win this, but if they started within 30 ft of me and got an opening round odds are only about 50/50 that I see round 2. So I'm calling this one a 50/50.

Twenty Dire Bears
Even if they started next to me and got first round I could live through 20 Dire Bear charges. It wouldn't be pretty but I'd live. This is where being a Summoner is nice because I basically have 260 hp and a huge AC. Once I survive I have basically total tactical superiority so as long as I don't fail a defensive casting roll I'm in the air summoning minions and raining death. Only freakish rolling could take this fight away from me and even that in only in the most handicapped scenario possible. Victory.

A Harem of Succubi
This one can be quick. My monster has terrible will saves and that's all these girls do. Also the Pathfinder Succubus is actually even nastier than the 3.E model because she's got Dominate Person. So a dozen Dominate Person effects is absolutely nothing I can deal with and a dozen Charm Monster effects is nothing my monster can deal with. At no point am I anywhere close to succeeding at this mission. Loss.

Glabreduo
2 Glabrezu's is more like it. Even if they got the drop on us and they each Power Word Stunned me and my Eidolon we could survive the free rounds they'd get to beat on us. In the FAQ they make clear that Summoners ability to burn Eidolon HP as their own can be done while stunned and that's all I'll need here. When I come back out of the stun their whole trick is used up and the encounter's mine. I'm almost certainly at 0hp when I come back out of the stun but my Eidolon should still have some health left and now that we're back online these guys can't deal with our damage output or our mobility. Now if they've spent rounds trying to use Confusion me or my monster instead of hitting us when we're stunned things might obviously get weird when I get out. But seeing as I only fail against confusion on a 1 and that would mean we're taking even less damage I actually think that's the worse strategy. Either way once I'm conscious this encounter is mine and I've got the health and AC to get there. Victory

A million contingent weirds surrounding an artifact.
I will send a hundred Demons to their doom until one returns with that artifact. They can fly around, port through walls, and explode when they are hit by weirds until one makes its saves and brings it back. I could also make Elementals which are immune to both weirds and symbols of pain so if the architecture of the artifact's base could let an Air or Water Elemental woosh through or a wrecking crew of Elder Earth Elementals to smash their way through I would do that instead. Definite victory and a fun one at that.

This brings my total count to 10 wins, 3 losses, and 2 50/50's with only 3 fights to go including the dreaded Horned Devil, an Ice Devil with Golem backup, and a Death Slaad atop an Enormous Frog. So far the Summoner is doing well. What he lacks in spell power he makes up for in survivability to most attack methods, as well as high DPS. In many ways he reminds me of a well built Rogue, but whereas a Rogue is weak against a few specific types of opponent the Summoner stumbles anytime serious domination effects hit the table. It's an amusing kryptonite to have but knowing what I know now if I were to build another summoner I might search out things that could help him deal with his pet freaking out on him more reliably. Will save boosters, maybe something to make him immune to mind affecting. I'll look around. As always feel free to post any problems you have with any of my methodology with the above encounters.

[ishy]

How is your AC 28?
Assuming you already calculated Enlarge in your original stat line (or was the enlarge for your eidolon?).
Base 10 + 0 (dex) - 1 (size) + 8 (+4 chainshirt) + 5 (barkskin) = 22

Do you also have a ring of protection and something else?

If I look at the cloud giant fight, I'm wondering why they don't do things like ready an awesome blow to knock you off the eidolon. And why the giant bears and /or hellcats don't grapple you?

- Edit: the Eidolon only has 4 AoO a round so it can only give you +2 ac against 4 attacks, and a single hellcat would already do 5 attacks on a pounce.

[Dean]

How is your AC 28?
Assuming you already calculated Enlarge in your original stat line (or was the enlarge for your eidolon?).
Base 10 + 0 (dex) - 1 (size) + 8 (+4 chainshirt) + 5 (barkskin) = 22

It's actually 27 apparently, I just recalculated and I think I forgot the enlarge size modifier. It's 10+0 (dex) -1 (Size), +9 (+5 chain shirt), +5 (Barkskin), +4 (Shield Bonus). Summoners have a thing called Shield Ally which gives you +4 Shield Bonus to your AC and all your saves if you're near your Eidolon. It's one of the big reasons that riding them is a good idea.

If I look at the cloud giant fight, I'm wondering why they don't do things like ready an awesome blow to knock you off the eidolon. And why the giant bears and /or hellcats don't grapple you?

If the Giant's ready action they can't throw Rocks, which is the only way they can affect my ranged archers. Any round they ready actions is just a free round I get. Also they are large enough that they couldn't effectively cover each other to get multiple awesome blows on one attack unless they ALL ready, which as I said is just giving me a victory. So even if every other giant readied a blow, halving their ranged capability, and I charged them for some reason, and they hit and awesome blowed me off my mount, I could always just D-door away immediately. It's not a plan for success.

As to grappling me, in Pathfinder grappling is actually incredibly hard. The only way to do it reliably is to have a really titanic strength, which is why my eidolon can do it. Both Hellcat's and Dire bears have a +19 Combat Maneuver Bonus compared to my +27 Combat Manuever Defense. Still the actual answer to your question is that Grappling wouldn't really help them much as, again, I like teleporting out of shitty scenario's. And in both the Hellcat and the Bear fight the win condition always was "teleport out of reach and summon an army". Which is kind of cool. The Summoner can, in general, summon a higher EL force than he is facing given a few rounds. As a final note it is actually often a wise proposition to send my Eidolon down to charge something and then die. I can resummon my Eidolon as a swift or standard action and do crazy pokeball shit where I use a 2nd level spell to make an Eidolon that can charge out, do a couple hundred damage, and then die to a counterattack. Chopping away at their forces while I lose nothing but a spell slot and my Shield Ally bonus.

- Edit: the Eidolon only has 4 AoO a round so it can only give you +2 ac against 4 attacks, and a single hellcat would already do 5 attacks on a pounce.

The Hellcats have 3 attacks on the charge (they need to start a turn grappled with me to use Rake), but otherwise correct. The thing the Hellcats can't do is fly or teleport. And even if the Hellcats start in charge range I can take their charge and live. A dozen hellcats have 36 attacks which have a 50/50 to hit on a charge on any attack I don't Bodyguard, so lets assume I don't ever use it. On average rolls a hellcat deals 13 damage on the charge, meaning altogether they deal 159 damage leaving me with 92hp (remember my Eidolon's hp is mine). The Medusa's ranged attacks deal 1d8 damage and are only at +8's while mounted meaning they can't possibly kill me with 12 attacks. So the only threat before I gain tactical superiority through flight or teleportation is the Medusa's gaze. If I get an action I can be healing, flying, teleporting, and summoning minions and they really can't do anything about it. If Hellcat's could greater teleport or fly this would be a loss but as it is I win if I get initiative, and if I don't get initiative I win if I can roll 12 dice without seeing a 1. I think this is really reasonable to call a 50/50.

[ishy]

As to grappling me, in Pathfinder grappling is actually incredibly hard. The only way to do it reliably is to have a really titanic strength, which is why my eidolon can do it. Both Hellcat's and Dire bears have a +19 Combat Maneuver Bonus compared to my +27 Combat Manuever Defense. Still the actual answer to your question is that Grappling wouldn't really help them much as, again, I like teleporting out of shitty scenario's. And in both the Hellcat and the Bear fight the win condition always was "teleport out of reach and summon an army".

If they charge they get a +2 and if they flank a +4 on their cmb. Which seems doable.
And if you're grappled, you need to make a 36 concentration check or 41 concentration check to teleport?
Which is actually quite hard?

The Hellcats have 3 attacks on the charge (they need to start a turn grappled with me to use Rake), but otherwise correct.

No, they have pounce, so can use rake on a charge.

[MisterDee]

So - quick reality check.

I'm planning the following scenario:

5 level 4 characters (Urban Ranger, Standard Bearer Cavalier, Abjurer wizard, Bard, Cleric) are going to go up against a Young Adult White Dragon.

They will be forewarned: they'll meet some white dragon wyrmlings first. They'll also have the ressources to go at the problem at full health, having only wasted some resources on the wyrmling prior to the engagement (unless they're stupid and go looking for trouble elsewhere.)

They will also have some relevant consumables, specifically an Elixir of Fire Breath and a potion of heroism, above and beyond their gear which is roughly on WBL.

They also will be warned in advance that they're going into an icy environment, and will be allowed to shop for relevant firepower or tools.

The fight itself will take place in an large cavern criss-crossed by walkways and bridges, where the dragon can fly around. However the party can force him to land (by going for its eggs, or by retreating in a tunnel, or any other plan - that dragon is a relatively stupid specimen of the species.)

So: easy fight? TPK waiting to happen?

[Archmage Joda]

A minor aside: Does anyone know how the Opposition Research discovery would work with Thassilonian Specialist?

[Rawbeard]

It should not work at all, since his opposing schools are prohibited. The rules as written don't really apply. Great catch of "someone forgot about X" pathfinder goodnes.

[Voss]

The fight itself will take place in an large cavern criss-crossed by walkways and bridges, where the dragon can fly around. However the party can force him to land (by going for its eggs, or by retreating in a tunnel, or any other plan - that dragon is a relatively stupid specimen of the species.)

So... why is the party killing the unwed teenage mothers of the dragon world? Or is it just a kid looking after its little siblings?

But you're looking at this, right?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monste ... oung-adult

It seems a bit much for a level 4 party, even as bad as CRs are, more than double seems a bit much. A single breath alone can put several characters dangerously low on hp (or even drop a couple, depending on the Con of the Wizard and bard). The SR is pretty rough on a party that low, and the cavalier is probably more of a dead weight in a fight like this. (the ranger and bard might be as well, especially if the former is a melee idiot).

[Dean]

If they charge they get a +2 and if they flank a +4 on their cmb. Which seems doable.
And if you're grappled, you need to make a 36 concentration check or 41 concentration check to teleport?
Which is actually quite hard?

Wow I did not see Pathfinder's new grapple concentration check. I was assuming it was still just DC 20 like in 3.E. DC 10+CMD+Spell level while grappled is fucking undoable. That's what I get for playin pathfinder huh? Changed the rules just enough that I don't actually know them anymore. Yeah that will require a small change in strategy. It would mean that when grappled I would let my eidolon go first and have it take it's 6-14 attacks into the monster directly in front of it, certainly killing either the Hellcat or the Dire Bear that's holding me and THEN I will teleport away as planned. So unless there is some way for the monsters to pass me off to get me away from my mount in some sort of monster huddle it shouldn't change either scenario, but thanks for the rule update. I'm gonna have to mention that at my Monday game.

No, they have pounce, so can use rake on a charge.

I kept looking under rake for that but I see that it's in pounce. Alright then that would take average damage per hellcat charge to about 23 which multiplied by 12 would indeed be enough to kill me. BUT WAIT. If we're doing this right which we obviously are I realize now that there is no way 12 Hellcats could fit around me. Even if they started off in a perfect circle around me in optimal position for charge lanes they could only fit 8 large models in around my Eidolon. Bringing average damage to 180 or so which even with Medusa support is well within what I can survive. So even in an ideal enemy scenario of perfect positioning and them winning initiative they still will not be able to make damage the thing that kills me, the thing that very reasonably may kill me however is a dozen save or die's on opening round.

It actually occurs to me now for the first time that a squad of mounted Medusa's would be basically entirely nonfunctional. Neither Hellcats nor other Medusa's are immune to a Medusa's gaze (canonically this is actually a huge problem for the Medusa) so unless mitigating circumstances are involved the encounter might actually be won by mentioning to your DM that the fight would actually become "12 Fucking Badass statues appear". Trick victory? Any commentary on this one Frank?

[Username17]

Medusae all have bows. The range of the Medusa's gaze is 30 feet, which means that they fight in very loose formation. Meeting the gaze of something you are physically on the back of is generally considered impossible, so no Bezikira mounts are harmed in this scenario. Normal tactics would be to have them ride around shooting arrows at you while the others circle around and try to get you surrounded with overlapping gaze ranges. They can get a lot of those on you if you are larger than medium size. If you close with any Medusa, the Bezikira goes into full chomper mode, which is also what happens if you close your eyes to avoid gazing.

The normal ways of fighting that encounter are to use battlefield control to restrict Medusa movement, charge in and sweat it out blindfolded (hopefully with defenses high enough to be able to ignore the Medusae and the Hellcats), or win an archery duel by having the bestest artillery.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

1) All the hellcats can grapple you, nothing stops more than one initiating grapple when others have grappled. That defeats your strategy of having your pet kill them to release you from the grapple.

This also allows all 12 to hit you, because as each one grapples you, it moves into your space, and thus doesn't prevent the next one from reaching you.

2) "A creature with a gaze attack can actively gaze as an attack action by choosing a target within range. That opponent must attempt a saving throw but can try to avoid this as described above. Thus, it is possible for an opponent to save against a creature’s gaze twice during the same round, once before the opponent’s action and once during the creature’s turn."

So you actually may have to make up to 24 saves.

[ishy]

This also allows all 12 to hit you, because as each one grapples you, it moves into your space, and thus doesn't prevent the next one from reaching you.

No longer in the pathfinder. You don't share space while grappling.

[Dean]

Alright that encounter's a lot easier than I thought then. I can definitely out archer them and if they can't just surround me and force a hundred SOD's as Kaelik mentions then things would be easier. At most I could be dealing with 8 checks as far as I can tell, 2 checks apiece for each of the 4 medusa's that could likely get around me and not kill one another. I could also probably just close my eyes and ready an action to teleport 100ft up and let my monster run around handing things. If he turns to stone my ready goes off and I'd teleport up and summon another and continue letting him run amok. But probably the better plan is to just summon 30 Erinyes and let them handle it.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Is there any way to get access to the alternate options for Summon Monster as a Summoner? I think most of them require that you be a cleric who worships a particular god. Busting out hell hounds at character level 3 would be pretty awesome, but I don't think it's legally possible unless there's something I'm missing.

[Dean]

The alternate summoning options appear to only be accessible to anyone by asking your DM. So that's an ability that Clerics and Summoners have equally. Maybe you know something I don't from just looking at the PFSRD, in which case speak up.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Most of the summons originally showed up in the back of adventure modules, as horizontal power upgrades to worshipers of a particular god. The high-level giant summons came if you worshipped... Ysmir, I think?

I'm guessing the hellhounds are a power boost aimed at Asmodeus clerics.

But the MC in my current game seems fine with me summoning Red Skeletons, so things should be fine if I don't pull anything too abusive.

[Lago PARANOIA]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rin ... revelation

This is, in a nutshell, why I hate Pathfinder.