On Vancian Casting

[Omegonthesane]

Because I already said that it was a bug? My problem with vancian casting isn't that you can prepare bad spells.

Okay, let us try this again. You just said that how well the spells the Sorcerer choose fit the situation determining how good the Sorcerer is is a feature.

If that is a feature when the Sorcerer does it, why is it suddenly a bug when the Wizard does it?

For that matter how does "how well the spells you choose fit the situation at hand" differ significantly from "how good the spells you choose are"?

[Drolyt]

Okay, let us try this again. You just said that how well the spells the Sorcerer choose fit the situation determining how good the Sorcerer is is a feature.

If that is a feature when the Sorcerer does it, why is it suddenly a bug when the Wizard does it?

Alright, to examine this let us set up a hypothetical fantasy system. In this system there are no overpowered or underpowered spells, just different spells. These spells are of different but equal utility. Also in this system all magic is broken up into at least two subsystems so you aren't using the same slots to rain fire from the heavens and to read magical runes. So in this hypothetical system, how does the sorcerer-equivalent look? Well, depending on what magic they chose to specialize in they can solve different problems, but their overall utility doesn't depend on their spell selection because all spells are carefully balanced to be equally useful (let us ignore the issue of spell synergy).

Now let us look at the wizard-equivalent. He can change what spells they have on a daily basis. Their daily spell selection does not change their overall utility from day to day, only what specific problems they can deal with. So what we have is a character who is less versatile on any given day than the sorcerer-equivalent but more versatile over long periods of time. It is now my contention that what will happen in practice is the wizard-equivalent will find a way to always have the spells they need for a given day and so are actually just straight more versatile than the sorcerer-equivalent.

Now to amend my original claims. Vancian is not always bad*. I realize that now. Vancian will not cause problems with the game if the other characters are versatile enough that the vancian characters theoretical advantage in versatility makes no practical difference. That is what is happening with all the Tome classes you mentioned. But I do not think it can work in games without that level of versatility.

* Edit: Barring objections besides those I raise in this post.

[Kaelik]

For that matter how does "how well the spells you choose fit the situation at hand" differ significantly from "how good the spells you choose are"?

Finger of Death is a good spell. Polar Ray is a bad spell.

Finger of Death does not work very well against undead. It works pretty damn good against Outsiders.

It is now my contention that what will happen in practice is the wizard-equivalent will find a way to always have the spells they need for a given day and so are actually just straight more versatile than the sorcerer-equivalent.

Your contention is stupid. No one can do that and no one does that, short of people who adventure every other day and spend the entire day casting Contact Other Plane.

[Username17]

Now let us look at the wizard-equivalent. He can change what spells they have on a daily basis. Their daily spell selection does not change their overall utility from day to day, only what specific problems they can deal with. So what we have is a character who is less versatile on any given day than the sorcerer-equivalent but more versatile over long periods of time. It is now my contention that what will happen in practice is the wizard-equivalent will find a way to always have the spells they need for a given day and so are actually just straight more versatile than the sorcerer-equivalent.

Yes. Being able to change what spells you have available each day is better than having to keep your choices for an entire level or your entire career. This is not news.

But it's also not a dealbreaker. The fact that a guy who prepares bombs for each adventure will presumably not prepare fire bombs for a trip to Mount Infercano but prepare frost bombs or lightning jars or something instead is an advantage. But it's not an insurmountable advantage. It's worth about the same as having Energy Substitution in that instance. Since that's an ability that has a cost, the advantage of preparing your bombs each day instead of having your bombs chosen for you is something that is actually pretty easy to find a cost for.

-Username17

[Slade]

Look, I know some people dislike the Complete Arcane 3.5 warlock.

I think making you choose your invocations between boosting blasting and actual casting was the issue.
Seriously, you should have been getting shape and essence invocations along with actual ones not instead of.

In fact, they should have had a lot more invocations choices like the Dragon Fire Adepts ones. Also more ones known.

Baleful Utterence (shatter enemy spell casters spell pouch/holy symbol) at will. Plus, if successful debuff them
Fog Cloud at will (not great but tactical uses are there)
Darkness at will
Devil's sight see in all magical darkness
Earthen grasp: would be cool if spell didn't suck (since you can't control the effect)
Entropic Warding: like that cleric spell plus not tracks
Miasmic Cloud: concealment on self and fatigue enemy
See the unseen: see invisibility and darkvision
Spiderwalk: immune to webs and walk on walls
Summon Swarm at will (but you control them technically)

And that is 2nd level spells at 1st level.

Yes, the idea was cool.
Until you fight DR/magic foes Summon Swarm was amazing because it auto hit, debuffed enemies, and if swarm stopped fighting foes you stop using them and make another that will.

Okay, constructs and undead are not likely to be attacked (since they aren't living). But it was good till then.

And the 6th level category options were good too:
Charm Monster but limited to one creature at a time
Bestow curse
Animate Dead for free
Fly spell personal
Flee the scene: short range dimension door that left a major image behind
Blindsence 40 ft
dispel magic at range that damaged foes
Invisibility self

The idea behind the class was amazing, the execution a little off, but I still like it. And having played it: it works reasonably well in most adventures.

[Kaelik]

The idea behind the class was amazing, the execution a little off, but I still like it. And having played it: it works reasonably well in most adventures.

Welcome to The Gaming Den, we made the Conduit and like eight classes called Warlock. I don't think anyone is complaining about an at will caster who picks off a list.

[nockermensch]

I hope you guys can let this discussion rest now. :I

[Seerow]

[url=http://www.jackvance.com/jackvance_05262013/]I hope you guys can let this discussion rest now. :I[/ur]

I don't see what vance being dead has to do with the discussion at all.

[nockermensch]

[url=http://www.jackvance.com/jackvance_05262013/]I hope you guys can let this discussion rest now. :I[/ur]

I don't see what vance being dead has to do with the discussion at all.

Nothing. My first idea was to post this on the non-political news thread, but then I thought this one would be more on-topic.

[Drolyt]

I hope you guys can let this discussion rest now. :I

May he rest in peace...?