New Edition of Rules

[Crissa]

1199765703[/unixtime]]So where's the advantage in using items with higher minimum strengths?

The advantage seems that the 8 strength Cleric isn't using inappropriate gear.

I didn't make the initial suggestion, but that was it, right there: So that gear would be appropriate to the strength of the character. Want to use a telephone pole? Gotta meet a minimum strength.

-Crissa

[Neeek]

Is there any particular reason that I'm missing that you couldn't do both min and max strength? Or min strength for armor, max strength for weapons (possibly min and max strength for some heavier weapons)?

Also, I do like Crissa's "shatter point" idea. Hitting someone so hard you break your weapon provides a cool mental image.

[Crissa]

Another New Ed topic...

The Nymph volunteered to carry the posters. I watched, waiting for her to stick them where ever it was that she put stuff, but it looked like she was really just going to carry them. Of course, the very next time that I glanced at her after having given up, they were gone.

[CatharzGodfoot]

1199767678[/unixtime]]

1199765703[/unixtime]]So where's the advantage in using items with higher minimum strengths?

The advantage seems that the 8 strength Cleric isn't using inappropriate gear.

I didn't make the initial suggestion, but that was it, right there: So that gear would be appropriate to the strength of the character. Want to use a telephone pole? Gotta meet a minimum strength.

-Crissa

Great, but what does wearing heavier armor do in those circumstances, aside from weigh more?

1199770500[/unixtime]]Is there any particular reason that I'm missing that you couldn't do both min and max strength? Or min strength for armor, max strength for weapons (possibly min and max strength for some heavier weapons)?

There's no reason you can't. Added complexity is a reason you might not want to. That and, as I said above, what is the benefit of using an item with a higher min strength?

1199770500[/unixtime]]Also, I do like Crissa's "shatter point" idea. Hitting someone so hard you break your weapon provides a cool mental image.

It sucks when the fighter's sword is sundered, he disarms the enemy wizard, and stabs him back with the magic dagger (whoops, down two magic weapons).
It also doesn't make sense when you're dealing with, say, and adamantium dagger.

[Username17]

What being heavily armored does is and always has been a mystery. Certainly a possibility is that it trades Dodge AC for Fortitude AC and ranged attacks generally speaking target your Fortitude (you moving around or being small penalizes their attack roll, you can't actually dodge bullets).

But really I think we have to ask our selves what it should mean for someone to wear heavy armor. And honestly I'm thinking that people in heavy armor should be scarier in melee and be harder to get rid of but move more slowly. In that vein, I'm thinking possibly that people in heavy armor should get bonuses to hit points and melee damage at the cost of movement options and speed.

Weird, but I think it might fit the model I'm looking for better than other options. Maybe DR instead of hit points. But I'm serious about melee damage. Heavy armored people in stories hit harder than lightly armored people.

-Username17

[the_taken]

1199806582[/unixtime]]Heavy armored people in stories hit harder than lightly armored people.

-Username17

That just might be a side effect of the high STR required to be effective in heavier armor. Yes, the armor weighs you down, but getting that much mass moving means that there's allot more moving, and getting hit by that much is going to hurt. Consider it like the difference between getting hit by a speeding volkswagen and a moseying mack truck.

Oh, wait. I'm arguing against my point.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Why not just say that heavy armor proficiency gives you a bonus to strength?

[ckafrica]

A friend of mine who wears era quality full plate in LARPS says while its heavy to pick up, once it's on its not that bad but definitely limits mobility (he couldn't smoke or drink with it on) Well fitted full plate is actually much quieter and easier/more comfortable to wear than chain according to him.

[Fwib]

1200049184[/unixtime]]A friend of mine who wears era quality full plate in LARPS says while its heavy to pick up, once it's on its not that bad but definitely limits mobility (he couldn't smoke or drink with it on) Well fitted full plate is actually much quieter and easier/more comfortable to wear than chain according to him.

While that is quite likely all good and true, the moment you start making 'reality' the measure of the fighting man, he becomes an unplayable mook compared to those who routinely violate 'reality' just by wiggling their fingers and chanting.

[CatharzGodfoot]

1200070813[/unixtime]]

1200049184[/unixtime]]A friend of mine who wears era quality full plate in LARPS says while its heavy to pick up, once it's on its not that bad but definitely limits mobility (he couldn't smoke or drink with it on) Well fitted full plate is actually much quieter and easier/more comfortable to wear than chain according to him.

While that is quite likely all good and true, the moment you start making 'reality' the measure of the fighting man, he becomes an unplayable mook compared to those who routinely violate 'reality' just by wiggling their fingers and chanting.

Oh come on.

Once you bring in Reality, the guy waggling his fingers and chanting maybe makes an Intimidate check to scare the superstitious knight, who more then likely at that point ties the 'wizard' up and hauls him in to the Inquisition or something.

EARTH TO FWIB: magic is not real!


At any rate, it seems reasonable to me to imagine (although I have no experience) that doing continuous hard exercise while wearing (an admittedly well-distributed) 50 to 100 lbs is going to require a little more strength than doing the same without the weight. And yeah, maybe the biggest advantage of chainmail is 'one size fits all', but I honestly don't care if a game has the granularity to differentiate.

[Fwib]

I didn't suggest making the whole game conform to 'reality' but an awful lot of people seem to want to do it just to the fighter-types.

[Captain_Bleach]

1200078562[/unixtime]]I didn't suggest making the whole game conform to 'reality' but an awful lot of people seem to want to do it just to the fighter-types.

That's because people who are pro-Fighter want primary casters to ignore the laws of reality while everyone else has to obey them. Then they wonder why D&D is unbalanced and people complain about CoDzilla and how Sorcerers suck.

[JonSetanta]

1200076484[/unixtime]]
Once you bring in Reality, the guy waggling his fingers and chanting maybe makes an Intimidate check to scare the superstitious knight, who more then likely at that point ties the 'wizard' up and hauls him in to the Inquisition or something.

EARTH TO FWIB: magic is not real!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AVZczLuoJoU

No, it's not a rickrolling.

[Koumei]

That's pretty epic.

[CatharzGodfoot]

1200078562[/unixtime]]I didn't suggest making the whole game conform to 'reality' but an awful lot of people seem to want to do it just to the fighter-types.

Yeah, sorry about that. I was just in a strange mood, and tired of the 'realism kills warriors' line.

[Fwib]

1200181621[/unixtime]]

1200078562[/unixtime]]I didn't suggest making the whole game conform to 'reality' but an awful lot of people seem to want to do it just to the fighter-types.

Yeah, sorry about that. I was just in a strange mood, and tired of the 'realism kills warriors' line.

Quite often I manage to say things I didn't intend. I could have been more clear that it was the double-standard itself that I thought was a bad idea, not the particular standard that might be being doubled.

[virgil]

So the heavily armored types are slower, harder to hurt, and hit harder; and also, the lightly armored types are faster, trade Fortitude AC for Dodge AC (easier to hurt but harder to hit), and don't hit that well.

What about the heavily armored archer archetype (a literal tank, as it were)? There isn't much mobility needed when you're attacking from range. Although, in retrospect, I can't think of many examples of ranged types that aren't lightly armored and mobile at the same time.

I noticied in the Hand of Pain sample ability, there's a decision that people will have an effect threshold and wound threshold, which are also reached if the damage brings them to less than half or no HP respectively. Does this mean once you're at less than half health, EVERY attack inflicts their 'effect' because any damage will bring you to less than half HP (what with already being less than half HP)?

Oh, how will criticals work? Will there be a confirmation roll, expanded threat ranges, etc?

[Username17]

In human history, archers have almost universally wore less armor than melee troops. And games have rarely produced a good mechanic for why this might be the case.

Let's face it, in most games it falls to the melee artist to close range while the archer simply stands there and fires - so mobility penalties, fatigue limitations, and such are inherently weighted towards naked footmen (possibly with big shields) and plated archers. And that's... weird.

I'm not really sure what to do about it. A possibility might include a Dominions-like battle fatigue system in which firing a bow or stabbing people was stressful if you were wearing heavier armor. But that seems way too complicated. Another possibilty might be to give Armor a maximum dex bonus to attacks, which would make archer characters shy away from the heavier stuff.

-Username17

[virgil]

Those heavily armored warriors, while less mobile, should be more resistant to hindering effects as well; at least, in my opinion (unstoppable juggernaut image).

Now there's an idea, armor gives an increase to Effect/Wound Thresholds.

Weren't the reasons archers in history (and stories for the most part) wearing lighter armor because they still needed mobility for both attacks and to make sure they could outpace the melee troops?

What if armor has a balance of penalties and bonuses? Reduce Dodge AC, raise Fort AC and/or effect/wound thresholds. Reduce ranged damage, increase melee damage. Etc.

[Daiba]

1201259753[/unixtime]]Weren't the reasons archers in history (and stories for the most part) wearing lighter armor because they still needed mobility for both attacks and to make sure they could outpace the melee troops?

I'm pretty sure it has more to do with cost. You have to equip a unit of archers. If properly deployed, they won't be under attack. Why pony up for expensive, high maintenance armor? Plus, the more gear they carry, the more you probably have to feed them. Cataphracts are one of the exceptions: heavily armored mounted chargers who were often equiped with bows as well as lances.

I think looking at military units is a flawed way to evaluate this. You can find them armed in almost any fashion, based on economic or cultural factors. There were plenty of nations fielding troops that were basically naked with a big shield and a spear.

An adventuring party is more like a viking warband. You should expect even the archers to be wearing a mail hauberk if they can afford it.

Also, crossbowmen seem to have at times been fairly well armored:

Another possibilty might be to give Armor a maximum dex bonus to attacks, which would make archer characters shy away from the heavier stuff.

I don't know how severe the max dex limits you're proposing are, but they could make these historical examples impossible.

[CatharzGodfoot]

One option to restrict archers from very heavy armor is to make their attacks perception-base (Wisdom), and have armor restrict your senses. Melee guys will be fine because they use Strength or Dex-based attacks, but again we make precision-attacks perception based to make thieves wear less armor (in addition to stealth issues).

Or, yeah, you call Dex your perception stat, have normal melee attacks be Str only, and restrict Dex to attack (as Frank said).

You don't have to limit lighter armors, and in fact the ranged attacks issue might be the only thing keeping chainmail in the game (because, while it's damn' heavy, it restricts you Dex or Wis less).

[Username17]

Weren't the reasons archers in history (and stories for the most part) wearing lighter armor because they still needed mobility for both attacks and to make sure they could outpace the melee troops?

For much of history, the archer was a "skirmisher" unit. Their purpose was to stand in loose formation at the front and rain arrows and sling stones on the enemy, and then pull back behind the main line of spearmen if and when the enemy got close enough to threaten the main force.

So the archers were:

1. Skum.
   
2. Intended to run forwards and then backwards during combat.
   
3. Never intended to engage in melee at all.
   
4. Protected from enemey archery by a dispersed formation and the fact that you didn't care if they lived or died anyway.

To find archers relevent to a fantasy role playing game, you'd want to look at heroic archers rather than military archers. For that you'd want to look at:

• Robin Hood: cloth or mail.
  
• Odysseus: heavy plate.
  
• Teucer: light armor.
  
• Arjuna: heavy armor.
  
• Ekalavya: No shirt.
  
• Houyi: Multiple layers of silk.
  
• Arash: Breastplate.

-Username17

[Daiba]

So how do we get both Ekalavya and Odysseus?
Is one of them strictly superior to the other at archery?

[angelfromanotherpin]

It seems to me that armor is a choice that's irrelevant to performing archery, but relevant to whatever else you're doing, possibly while arching.

Odysseus' usual intellect/social stuff is completely unhindered by plate. Robin Hood's stealth and gymnastics are. I don't know why Ekalavya went around naked, but let's say that any armor would interfere with whatever he was using his display of oiled pecs to accomplish.

So a character who wants to be a pillbox can arch in heavy plate, and a character who wants to kite will arch in light mail, and a character who wants to snipe will arch in camo-leathers.

[Username17]

Test Balloon: what if your net benefit from armor had to do with an ability package you picked up based on what schools you had abilities from? And then you could maybe pick up additional packages later in life and switch between them?

Arjuna is a Dex/Charisma archer. Odysseus is an Intelligence/Charisma archer. Both of them use heavy armor. Ekalavya is a Wisdom/Dex archer. Houyi is a Wisdom/Constitution archer. Both of them wear cloth.

The thing I think is really interesting is that out of the essentially random sample of great archer heroes I pulled up, the two guys whose schtick is having a silver tongue also happen to run around in full armor and the two guys whose schtick is being extremely perceptive happen to run around without armor. That's... interesting enough that it could possibly be the basis for a package of game mechanics.

-Username17