Pathfinder

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:37 pm

it's a ring of multi feats. Why exactly do you hate it? It's way better than your average item of +1 to blah.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:47 pm

sabs wrote:it's a ring of multi feats. Why exactly do you hate it? It's way better than your average item of +1 to blah.

The worst part of that page is the FYI block telling you that rogues can't have nice things.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:52 pm

nockermensch wrote:
sabs wrote:it's a ring of multi feats. Why exactly do you hate it? It's way better than your average item of +1 to blah.
The worst part of that page is the FYI block telling you that rogues can't have nice things.

That's like complaining that Rogues can't use Rings of Wizardry. Or a ring that gives you extra turns a day. Or a Ring that gave you extra uses of your Wizard school power.

And a rogue with 1 level dip in oracle could use that ring. I don't think that magic item is why Pathfinder is terrible. There are many better options for that. Like the fact that

As an Oracle you can spend 1 feat to get "extra revelations"
Revelations tend to give you between 2-3 feats worth. So really, only a fucking idiot Oracle uses feats to get feats. You're invariably better off just getting more revelations. That is a much better thing to talk about.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:16 pm

sabs wrote: Revelations tend to give you between 2-3 feats worth.

I would say that a revelation is worth between 0 and 3 feats, considering that some revelations are mind-numbingly awful.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:23 pm

Given that most feats are zombies eating your brains terribad.

I'm not sure that statement really changes anything.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:03 pm

hogarth wrote: I would say that a revelation is worth between 0 and 3 feats, considering that some revelations are mind-numbingly awful.

Well, if a player gets to pick the revelation, then it's pretty much worth 3 feats, then.

It's a bit underpriced, as a +5 sword is basically 3 feats as well.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:34 am

One of the MCs in my group wants to run a level 12 Pathfinder game focused on Logistics and Dragons, where the PCs are in charge of a political party.

Monster characters are welcome, but you have to go by the normal rules for them. Anybody have suggestions for midlevel monsters that would work well as both faction leaders and combatants?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:58 am

efreet?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:43 am

Efreet is a respectable choice. The wishes make your organization a steady stream of good-quality treasure during downtime and you are a decent fighter. At CR 8 you can get 5 levels in a PC class at "ECL 12", which could diversify your magic or just boost combat power.

Noble efreets are CR 10, with 13 HD, extra spell-likes, and Caster Level 14. They could only start with 2 levels in a PC class, so diversifying magic would be a worse bargain.

Hmm. If I grabbed a CR 3 monster, it would basically be free. I could grab a mephit or something, then have it pretend to be the familiar of its cohort.

CR 6... 8 levels in a PC class, which might turn a Kyton, Babau, Djinni, or Bralani into a total badass.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:04 am

Devourer is a possibility. It is also a huge dick move, since it basically gets unlimited access to high level spells. When you run low on essence points, just call some fiends to souldrain.

Succubus goes from situationally overwhelming to generally awesome with Pathfinder's addition of at-will Vampiric Touch. With prep time, you go into any fight with boatloads of temporary HP. You want a class that leverages your high CHA to boost saves or supply save-or-loses for uncharmable enemies.

Templates are a possibility. Lich is always sweet, and I've already shown how ridiculous a carefully-played Dread Mummy can be in Crypts of Chaos.

Looking at dragons, a Mature Adult Black Dragon is CR 12, and apparently Large. You could fit that in a dungeon corridor quite easily. After 1 party level-up, the dragon could add a level of sorcerer for level 3 spell access.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:29 am

An adult green is also CR 12, and trades darkness for charm person, entangle, and suggestion all at-will (also, a downgrade from DR 10/magic to 5). Stats are pretty comparable, though I think the black would have +2 dex, +2 nat armor, +2 HD, and +2d6 breath weapon (but the green's is a cone). The green also gets woodland stride to go with its water breathing. Overall, I gotta give it to green for the spell-likes even if it is slightly worse in a brawl. There are also imperial dragons and primal dragons, which are not very good. CR 11 mature adult crystal dragon is the best of a bad bunch with at-will color spray, glitterdust, and rainbow pattern.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:30 am

Oh. Monadic Deva is actually really interesting from a defensive standpoint. You're immune to all energy but sonic damage, and also to spells of level 3 and lower. No worries about negative levels, death effects, or petrifying either.

Some respectable SLAs, but unfortunately it lacks an obvious way to be very threatening to equal-power opposition. Holy Word is only CL 10, so it won't even faze a CR 12 demon.

Flamebrother Salamander is a solid CR 3, gives some nice boosts for a mage. It isn't really competitive with Lich, though.

Royal Naga means you'd cast like a cohort, but get 2 gaze attacks and a very solid combat body.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:33 am

@DSMatticus

Hey, that does sound pretty good. Green Dragon might end up being my final choice, if there aren't any standout outsiders.

Cloud Dragons are a bit cooler when they actually get to turn into clouds. So, not yet.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:24 pm

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8yvy

Is The Dragon's Demand any good?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:49 am

I'm a level 5 Outsider who can use Produce Flame at will, and my staple combat tactic is chucking firebolts at fools. I just picked up a new level, and I'm trying to decide whether to stick with Outsider or pick up levels in Fighter/Ranger/Ninja. Another point of BAB means I'll be able to chuck 3 firebolts per round, and more feats means better ranged offense. Enough fighter levels and I'll be able to dual wield flames. On the other hand, over half the enemies we fight are undead, and Ranger still provides some feats boosting ranged attacks and better saves. Sneak attacks are the last thing I considered, but we already have a rogue and I don't want to make my PC into even more of a hit-and-run specialist.

Any thoughts?

Oh, also, what kind of rolls would you require if someone fire-immune wanted to zoom around on top of a Flaming Sphere?

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:20 am

I don't understand a lot of things. What kind of outsider are you? When you say you chuck firebolts do you mean from the spell "produce flame"? If so are you throwing two attacks a round for 1d6+5 damage a piece? If so doesn't that kind of suck?

Finally the fire of Flaming Sphere can't support weight naturally and Pathfinder doesn't have the Balance skill ability to balance on things that shouldn't support you. However you could use the Epic Balance entry that lets you balance on a liquid at DC 90 as precedent.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:29 am

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.p ... tid=502585

The character is a Fire Nymph, with scaled up HD and matching caster level. Yeah, she isn't a superb combatant. She shreds through hordes of weak monsters without fire resistance and has decent defenses, but she'd be really easy to counter. Not all that great for single target burst damage, and a blaster wizard could easily outshine her area attack capabilities.

Vahishta has good skill mods for social/sneaking/lore, and can get wands to activate with UMD pretty reliably, so she can function as a party healer. As soon as we start running into real fiends or anything with huge piles of HP, she's probably going to retire or try to trade her levels in for a better monster chassis.

EDIT: if the Flaming Sphere is a liquid, would Water Walk help?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/water-walk

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:54 am

I'm slightly fuzzy on what you're doing still. Pathfinder monsters as PC's are just supposed to level up by class. It's what makes playing them basically the best imaginable thing in the universe.

I will quote myself from 5 pages earlier in this thread

deanruel87 wrote:Playing monsters in general in Pathfinder is the straight up business. By the rules playing a monster works like you took X levels in that monster where X is equal to its CR, then X is reduced by 1 for every 3 class levels you take after that.

So since monsters are made of arbitrarium anyways and many monsters have abilities that straight up say "You count as a 6th level Sorceror" or whatever it is very common that by choosing to play as a given monster at a given level you are choosing to just get many free levels on top of your levels. Yo Dawg.

Some of the all time big hitters are the following
Aranea: Gives you 5d10 hp, a +5 BAB, and 5 levels of Sorceror for 2 levels
Lamia Matriarch: Gives you 12d10 hp, a +12 BAB, and 6 levels of Sorceror as well as a bunch of sweet fuckin TWF feats for between 4 and 6 levels so you are BORN to Gish.
Lammasu: Gives you 9d10 hp, a +9 BAB, and 7 levels of Oracle with the added bonus that you don't need to use divine focus material components which I'm SURE can let you break the economy somehow. And that is for between 4 and 6 levels.

I accept that you're playing a 5hd version of the Fire Nymph but it's hard to provide optimization advice for this build because it's a little homebrew and clearly making intensely unoptimized decisions already for the purpose of theme. It's also kind of at the end of it's intended build path it seems having maxed out Produce Flame's damage power. The only fast way I can see to add damage to your produce flame attacks is either sneak attack or the monster feat "Quicken Spell like ability". So maybe look into those?

Also when you trade in your character consider being a meaner monster, cause there's some real winners out there.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:07 am

At character level 7, I'm probably gonna upgrade to a Bralani. They actually have HD in line with their CR, so I don't have to have long conversations with Mister Cavern about houseruling appropriate scaling. It works with the character's arc, too. Flight and wind walking won't break the game any more than the earth elemental I'm mostly retiring (since it ended up immune to 90% of our enemies, with DR + tremorsense + no physiology to target).

I'm probably going to go with a level of Fighter for now, keeping track of a ranger's situational bonuses might be kind of tedious. I'll throw on some heavier armor, and maybe see if I can scrounge some cold resistance using a feat or something. 2 weapon fighting would only really be worth it if I could convince the MC that my firebolts were light weapons.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:39 am

Speaking of being decent without being a full caster in pathfinder, which would be my best bet for being a primarily melee guy with perhaps some extra tricks up his sleeve, a fighter (two-handed archetype), a barbarian (invulnerable rager archetype), or an alchemist (beastmorph archetype)?

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:39 am

alchemist should take vivisectionist if melee. can use beastmorph on top of that.

fighter sucks donkeyballs, unless you cheese him to be a CMB whore.

barbarian is solid bordering on good, if you pick the right rage powers, invulnerable rager is very good start for a regular melee.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:29 pm

Rawbeard I'm curious what makes you say Barbarian is any good. They seem like an obvious and considerable nerf from the D&D Barbarian which on it's own was only considered OK. Power Attack multipliers, Lion Totem pouncing, the Frenzied Berserker, and the Bear Warrior have all been gotten rid of and those were all big parts of the Barbarian's power.

Of those options Alchemist is the definite big dog. Vivisectionist combined with Ragechemist is actually a pretty brutal melee monster. I don't know how great Beastmorph is but it looks fine. If you are playing at 8th level or higher you can use bombs to do a considerable amount of damage per round and going on the Force bomb track is fantastic.

So I would say monster melee Alchemist or Bomb Focused Alchemist are your best bets.

EDIT: Also if you go Vivisectionist you should look into the Sap Adept and Sap Master feat line. By walking around with Saps or other nonlethal weapons you can get a huge damage boost. And sneak attacking can actually be pretty easy for an Alchemist because they can get a Tumor Familiar to flank for them whenever they want.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:17 pm

Beastmorph nets you Pounce at 10th and a solid claw/claw/bite routine, that's why people take it.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:58 am

Rage powers give the barbarian spellcaster like utility, monstrous abilities usually unavailable to players, especially fighter types, and generally nice bonuses to attack, damage and saves. Unless you pick shit like raging swimmer. Spellsunder alone is awesome.

The barbarian is not good in a cleric or wizard sense (big shocker, I know), but he is viable even at higher levels and can be quite self sufficient. Fucker can even grow wings.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:41 am

My players have asked me to run a single-session "horror" game, average PC level 10. It should involve some sailing or underwater exploration, and maybe a haunted and/or sunken ship. Any suggestions?