This is not a thread about fixing the fighter. It doesn't matter that the to fix the fighter you have to destroy the entire fucking game, because this is not a goddam thread about fixing the fighter. It is about getting the fuck rid of the fighter.Wrathzog wrote:Tussock's actually right about this. "Fixing" the fighter (as far as 3E D&D is concerned)
Solutions to the Fighter Problem: Fighter Replacements
Moderator: Moderators
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Classes like Paladin, Ranger, Sword Mage, Magus, Berserker, are all good steps towards getting rid of the fighter, and still having classes that hit things with weapons as their primary shtick, but at least have a shot at being relevant at high levels.
If you want to play a dude in big heavy plate, that kicks ass. You can play a Paladin, or an Eldritch Knight.
Hell, even Monk is conceptually a viable class, as long as it's benchmarked against the full spellcasters, and not the fighter.
If you want to play a dude in big heavy plate, that kicks ass. You can play a Paladin, or an Eldritch Knight.
Hell, even Monk is conceptually a viable class, as long as it's benchmarked against the full spellcasters, and not the fighter.
It hasn't and that's why this thread exists?John Magnum wrote:How has D&D done this ... ?
but that doesn't mean that it's not possible, we can go through the list of GTFO abilities and just think of a way to change them so that they're more of a roadblock as opposed to some impassable barrier.
Like making it so that Incorporeal creatures are paired up with a way to effect them similar to how creatures with Regeneration come with a way to kill them. Ghosts, for example, can be disrupted with Iron.
I want to say that most of it is fixable other than long-range transportation issues. As Frank's posited in other threads, there will always be that floating castle in the sky that is just outside of Jump-Range and people seem to hate the idea that a dude can cut through the fabric of reality and step through to someplace of his choosing.
PSY DUCK?
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RadiantPhoenix
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Tussock, why the fuck should a dragon have to land to fight you?
Why should a cloud castle have to descend to the earth just because you shoot at it?
Why shouldn't a ghost stay intangible inside solid rock while attacking at range?
If one class doesn't have the ability to deal with high level problems, you give it stuff in its conceptual space that lets it deal with those problems. If it doesn't have conceptual space to deal with those problems, it isn't a class you can be at high levels.
---
Really, at high level you need things like:
Why should a cloud castle have to descend to the earth just because you shoot at it?
Why shouldn't a ghost stay intangible inside solid rock while attacking at range?
If one class doesn't have the ability to deal with high level problems, you give it stuff in its conceptual space that lets it deal with those problems. If it doesn't have conceptual space to deal with those problems, it isn't a class you can be at high levels.
---
Really, at high level you need things like:
- Shooting from forever away
- Jumping all the way anywhere, even on other planes or planets, in a single bound.
- Sensing the way to the kidnapped djinn-princess in Caerci, despite her kidnappers having left no trail, and you being on another plane.
Last edited by RadiantPhoenix on Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Midnight_v
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This seems like an auspicious time to repost Franks how to high level guide
Frank Trollman wrote:Actual 20th level doesn't work. It's not even coherent. Normally, when I make a class that goes up to 20th level, the 20th level capstone is just "You win D&D", because it doesn't fucking matter. We won't go there.
But along the way to 20th level, you do encounter quite a bit of stuff. As far as combat goes, it is indeed mostly "the enemies now have bigger numbers", which is because most of the combat advancement is essentially empty shuffling of palette swaps. 4e is of course even worse about this. However, there are a number of important changes in how combat functions even so:
And aside from the whole "you literally cannot punch this monster regardless of what numbers you nominally have for punching actions", there's also growth in "numbers" that have nothing to do with your attack and damage rolls. Combats get physically larger, meaning that you need to be able to strike enemies that are farther away and you need to be able to move longer distances in shorter times. But combats also get physically "larger" in the sense that the opposition "there are some Orcs" never actually goes off the table, but it stops being half a dozen Orcs and eventually becomes dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of Orcs. To the point that Orcs themselves become an effectively unstabable swarm, where your ability to make attack rolls ceases to have any relevance because the MC isn't bothering to keep track of exactly how many Orcs there even are.
- Monsters that are immune to swords and arrows because they are an uncountable number of bees or something and literally ignore anything that isn't an AoE.
- Monsters that are immune to swords and arrows because they are not solid.
- Monsters that are effectively or actually immune to swords and arrows unless they fulfill some arbitrary criteria like "being silver" or "being lawfully aligned".
- Monsters that are immune to swords and arrows because they are on another plane of existence.
- Monsters that are immune to swords and arrows because they are under water or ground.
- Monsters that are effectively immune to swords and arrows because they are only modestly slowed down by death (body jumpers, reforming vampires, and so on).
- Monsters that are immune to swords and arrows because you fight them in a completely different context like dream worlds or magic chess matches or psionic conflict.
And of course, the enemy is also attacking you, which means that your "numbers" had better include various defensive numbers lest you die outright. Remember that not only do you need to roll against harder saves, but that you need to make more saves and the consequences of failing them are worse. So much so that you're going to need some sort of recovery abilities, because iterative probability is a bitch and there is absolutely no way you're getting through a lot of high level encounters without being slain/blinded/petrified/cursed/whatever. But team monster also does all kinds of crap that doesn't even let you roll dice. Battlefields fill up with darkness, solid fog, brambles, stone, poison gas, lava, deadly cold, and even impenetrable force fields. You need to be able to bypass those obstacles somehow, and recall that some of them specifically and explicitly cannot be physically moved through.
And not to put too fine a point on it: this is just battles. Quest locations can also be:
- On the other side of the planet.
- Under the sea.
- Several miles up into the air.
- On the Moon.
- In another plane of existence.
- In an undisclosed location somewhere in a trackless wilderness that is hundreds of kilometers across.
- In an unmarked building among tens of thousands of others just like it.
- Completely on fire, without oxygen, or in some other way impossible to survive in for more than a few seconds.
We also have social issues. The basic "convince an NPC of something" task doesn't really change if that NPC is the mayor, the sultan, or the Efreeti Sultan, so many social abilities actually scale effectively and automatically to higher level play without even having to change the numbers. But you also introduce "oratory", where you now need not just to persuade a dude but to propagandize people by the thousands or millions. And you need to be able to gather information that is completely segregated from any possible local legend or rumor because the quest in question is in one of those hard to reach places. Also you may need to talk to "people" that don't speak a language that ever existed on your planet and don't share an analogous set of gestures or facial features because they are trichordate radiates made out of stone.
And that's just to start. We haven't even gotten to the inane one-upsmanship of higher level play, where we have one of the preceding issues that is further exacerbated by the fact that it is arbitrarily "even more" and thus cannot be dealt with by the "normal" high level magic bullshit you need to deal with that sort of thing. Like the various death magic that not only kills you, it also requires that you get a higher level magic effect shaken over your corpse before you are allowed to undo death by the "normal" means of reviving the dead. D&D actually has a lot of that going on, which is why there's dispel magic, break enchantment, regeneration, and miracle that are all needed to overcome various curses of whatever sundry strengths they happen to be.
This one-upsmanship, while a big deal game mechanically, is not a terribly big deal conceptually. You get afflicted by curses, and you need to get rid of those curses, and only magic will do that. But if you describe it without game mechanics, dispel magic and break enchantment aren't really different. So when you're talking abstractly and without tying yourself down to a specific game system, the various tiers of counters don't really matter for purposes of the conceptual limits of a character. I can't really imagine a character who was conceptually capable of breaking a curse that was breakable with dispel magic but conceptually incapable of breaking a curse that needed at least break enchantment. And this is actually why I came down so hard on Virgil when he claimed that he had envisioned conceptual space for a "kill a dude" effect that was maximum level - because "kill a dude" is a first level effect and the higher tier versions of it aren't any more conceptually different than dispel magic and break enchantment.
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nockermensch
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Re: Solutions to the Fighter Problem: Fighter Replacements
Plucky Hero
Concept: Fiction is full of people that overcome impossible odds through extreme luck. The plucky hero is one of those guys.
Solutions: Here's the deal: The universe where D&D takes place has magic, gods and stuff like these. It's kind of pointless to say that one in a million shots in a RPG must fail 999,999 times if it takes literally 10 seconds to write Hits one-in-a-million shots all the fucking time (Ex): Things are only impossible in a RPG because nobody wrote class abilities enabling them yet. If people are willing to write elemental / asian / gadgeteering solutions to the action hero problem, my solution is to present a "luck" power source.
Rules: The power source for this class is that he's very, very lucky, in a degree so hardcore that the universe bends backwards to it. At least this is how people inside the game world understand it. For us, it's clear that the class Gets Shit Done by a series of explicit (Ex) and (Su) abilities on its description. Which means that, yes, this is a magical class. Only that instead fluffing the magic as coming through spells, we do it through seemingly normal actions. To use the Plucky Hero you need to recognize that D&D is simulating epic stories and be willing to recognize that some people will be the heroes or villains of such stories. If this idea offends you, don't use this class.
Suggested Powers (in no particular order):
Structural Damage (Ex): Some people take DR as an incentive to get creative. By hitting specially protected creatures in specific places/moments, the plucky hero bypasses the resistance. If he takes the time to actually find an appropriate weapon, the target's pain will be legendary. In game terms, the plucky hero not only ignores any kind of DR, but if he uses a weapon that can damage the creature, he gets to apply the numeric amount of DR his target has as additional damage on each attack.
Evasive Measures (Ex): When the plucky hero puts his mind on not being hit, that happens. On any round where he uses the total defense action, he gets a $TEXAS dodge bonus on AC and saving throws and gains Evasion and Mettle.
Finds a way (Ex): The action is underwater, in a flying castle, the plane of fire, a dream, or something? It takes the Plucky Hero one hour and a Sequence Montage to Find a way to adventure there. The way lets him act unimpeded, works only for him and can't be sold.
Figure it out (Ex): Sometimes the story needs something figured out to progress, like a clue, a puzzle or a maze. Like with Finds a way, the Plucky Hero can spend one hour and a Sequence Montage to Figure it out and get the adventure moving again.
Stowaway (Su): Some people complain because they have to "spend resources" on "useless party members", so here's what a Plucky hero does: Whenever someone casts a spell near him, he gets to decide as an Immediate Action if he also benefits from the spell effects.
Butterfly effect (Ex): Combat is already a chaotic matter, but when a Plucky hero is involved, things spin quickly out of control. Whenever there's more enemies than allies on the battlemat, a number of them becomes Confused, as the spell.
Doesn't die, even when killed (Ex): As anybody who ever saw Saint Seiya can attest, it's basically impossible to kill a plucky hero outside cutscenes. In combat situations he gets fast healing level/round whenever he's below 50% of his max HP and if he makes a Fortitude save with DC equal to any damage that would let him killed or unconscious, he survives with 1 hp.
Concept: Fiction is full of people that overcome impossible odds through extreme luck. The plucky hero is one of those guys.
Solutions: Here's the deal: The universe where D&D takes place has magic, gods and stuff like these. It's kind of pointless to say that one in a million shots in a RPG must fail 999,999 times if it takes literally 10 seconds to write Hits one-in-a-million shots all the fucking time (Ex): Things are only impossible in a RPG because nobody wrote class abilities enabling them yet. If people are willing to write elemental / asian / gadgeteering solutions to the action hero problem, my solution is to present a "luck" power source.
Rules: The power source for this class is that he's very, very lucky, in a degree so hardcore that the universe bends backwards to it. At least this is how people inside the game world understand it. For us, it's clear that the class Gets Shit Done by a series of explicit (Ex) and (Su) abilities on its description. Which means that, yes, this is a magical class. Only that instead fluffing the magic as coming through spells, we do it through seemingly normal actions. To use the Plucky Hero you need to recognize that D&D is simulating epic stories and be willing to recognize that some people will be the heroes or villains of such stories. If this idea offends you, don't use this class.
Suggested Powers (in no particular order):
Structural Damage (Ex): Some people take DR as an incentive to get creative. By hitting specially protected creatures in specific places/moments, the plucky hero bypasses the resistance. If he takes the time to actually find an appropriate weapon, the target's pain will be legendary. In game terms, the plucky hero not only ignores any kind of DR, but if he uses a weapon that can damage the creature, he gets to apply the numeric amount of DR his target has as additional damage on each attack.
Evasive Measures (Ex): When the plucky hero puts his mind on not being hit, that happens. On any round where he uses the total defense action, he gets a $TEXAS dodge bonus on AC and saving throws and gains Evasion and Mettle.
Finds a way (Ex): The action is underwater, in a flying castle, the plane of fire, a dream, or something? It takes the Plucky Hero one hour and a Sequence Montage to Find a way to adventure there. The way lets him act unimpeded, works only for him and can't be sold.
Figure it out (Ex): Sometimes the story needs something figured out to progress, like a clue, a puzzle or a maze. Like with Finds a way, the Plucky Hero can spend one hour and a Sequence Montage to Figure it out and get the adventure moving again.
Stowaway (Su): Some people complain because they have to "spend resources" on "useless party members", so here's what a Plucky hero does: Whenever someone casts a spell near him, he gets to decide as an Immediate Action if he also benefits from the spell effects.
Butterfly effect (Ex): Combat is already a chaotic matter, but when a Plucky hero is involved, things spin quickly out of control. Whenever there's more enemies than allies on the battlemat, a number of them becomes Confused, as the spell.
Doesn't die, even when killed (Ex): As anybody who ever saw Saint Seiya can attest, it's basically impossible to kill a plucky hero outside cutscenes. In combat situations he gets fast healing level/round whenever he's below 50% of his max HP and if he makes a Fortitude save with DC equal to any damage that would let him killed or unconscious, he survives with 1 hp.
Last edited by nockermensch on Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
@ @ Nockermensch
Koumei wrote:After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.
Mord wrote:Chromatic Wolves are massively under-CRed. Its "Dood to stone" spell-like is a TPK waiting to happen if you run into it before anyone in the party has Dance of Sack or Shield of Farts.
No, they only want to troll every thread constantly in the hope that we will never succeed in doing any design work at all because we are constantly pointing out there stupid shit.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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nockermensch
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You guys will already post the elemental lords, machinists and such. My entry is seriously a luck based class. If it offends your sensibility, fluff it so that each Plucky Hero is secretly a servant of Giant Frog and does those things by the powers of Giant Frog for the glory of Giant Frog.Lord Mistborn wrote:...
...
Nice ruse nocker, care to grace this thread with a non-troll post.
But I need to make a correction on that post. The Concept still reads as "power of courage and love". See, my first idea would be the Kamina Determinator, a class that applies liberal amounts of spiral power hot blood and determination to Get Shit Done. Then I decided that that would be too supernatural and switched to a really luck dude concept.
Maybe I write the Determinator later. That's the class that gets the Defeat Means Friendship (Ex): ability.
@ @ Nockermensch
Koumei wrote:After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.
Mord wrote:Chromatic Wolves are massively under-CRed. Its "Dood to stone" spell-like is a TPK waiting to happen if you run into it before anyone in the party has Dance of Sack or Shield of Farts.
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nockermensch
- Duke
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- Location: Rio: the Janeiro
You need to have your tinfoil hat checked.Kaelik wrote:No, they only want to troll every thread constantly in the hope that we will never succeed in doing any design work at all because we are constantly pointing out there stupid shit.
@ @ Nockermensch
Koumei wrote:After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.
Mord wrote:Chromatic Wolves are massively under-CRed. Its "Dood to stone" spell-like is a TPK waiting to happen if you run into it before anyone in the party has Dance of Sack or Shield of Farts.
What design work? Mistborn has created nothing. All he's ever done is preen his l337 skillz and rape the dead horse that is fighter obsolescence.Kaelik wrote:No, they only want to troll every thread constantly in the hope that we will never succeed in doing any design work at all because we are constantly pointing out there stupid shit.
The class's overly generic plot powers do stand out. Few players and GMs will feel satisfied being told the character got into the Tcian Sumere because he took a shortcut.nockermensch wrote:You guys will already post the elemental lords, machinists and such. My entry is seriously a luck based class. If it offends your sensibility, fluff it so that each Plucky Hero is secretly a servant of Giant Frog and does those things by the powers of Giant Frog for the glory of Giant Frog.
Last edited by virgil on Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
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Foxwarrior
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Good thing this is a thread by Mistborn that only Mistborn posts in, or you would be stupid as shit and wrong.virgil wrote:What design work? Mistborn has created nothing. All he's ever done is preen his l337 skillz and rape the dead horse that is fighter obsolescence.Kaelik wrote:No, they only want to troll every thread constantly in the hope that we will never succeed in doing any design work at all because we are constantly pointing out there stupid shit.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Either that or your ability to speak in context needs work (or both).Kaelik wrote:Good thing this is a thread by Mistborn that only Mistborn posts in, or you would be stupid as shit and wrong.virgil wrote:What design work? Mistborn has created nothing. All he's ever done is preen his l337 skillz and rape the dead horse that is fighter obsolescence.Kaelik wrote:No, they only want to troll every thread constantly in the hope that we will never succeed in doing any design work at all because we are constantly pointing out there stupid shit.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
Dwarf. Tordek has levels in dwarf.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Honestly? There's nothing about Tordek that really makes him a fighter. Just looking at him you could argue that he's a Paladin of Bahamut, a Ranger, or even a Cleric with the war domain, and that's something of a problem. You'd want each class in your PHB to have a unique feel to them such that, no matter how they were illustrated, they wouldn't be confused for a member of a different class. Dwarf is actually the most descriptive part about him, the fact that he is a dwarf is more interesting than the fact that he is a fighter.
Even the classes in this thread do that better than the fighter. If I were to illustrate my Soldier proposal (which I won't, I draw like shit) I'd have a guy in heavy armor, big sword in one hand, fiddling with some sort of magic energy with the other, and all sorts of exotic trinkets at his belt (pretty much the eldritch knight, sue me). The Lycanthrope Paragon is obvious. The Destroyer would probably look like the assassin PrC illustration. And even the Plucky Hero probably gets to be a weirdly clean looking peasant with a big dumb-ass goofy grin on his face and a feather in his cap (no other classes look like him because they don't wan't to).
There's nothing about the actual fighter that you can even illustrate that would make someone go "Ooh ooh, that's a fighter."
Even the classes in this thread do that better than the fighter. If I were to illustrate my Soldier proposal (which I won't, I draw like shit) I'd have a guy in heavy armor, big sword in one hand, fiddling with some sort of magic energy with the other, and all sorts of exotic trinkets at his belt (pretty much the eldritch knight, sue me). The Lycanthrope Paragon is obvious. The Destroyer would probably look like the assassin PrC illustration. And even the Plucky Hero probably gets to be a weirdly clean looking peasant with a big dumb-ass goofy grin on his face and a feather in his cap (no other classes look like him because they don't wan't to).
There's nothing about the actual fighter that you can even illustrate that would make someone go "Ooh ooh, that's a fighter."
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Whipstitch
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Aren't we supposed to be spoilering the threadcrapping/discussion?
Like how trolls can only be killed by fire and acid, but if you sword them a whole bunch first it's infinitely easier to do that, because they lie down and let you burn them. Or that DR/junk type stuff that you just Power Attack past.
If that's a set of class features you want (and many here clearly do not) you have to let them work, especially against the eponymous Dragon.
Sure, you can have some things be much harder for Fighters (insubstantial) just as some are for Rogues or Wizards (golems, undead). But not Dragons, and not actually immune anyway.
But not really, it gets a bit silly, so you just have a mini-game there which neither excludes the Fighter nor expects great genius from them (what with this being Fighter players). If the Baron's supposed to be a Fighter, let him have Diplomacy, with Courtly and Local Knowledge and so on. 8 skill points per level to go with his all good saves.
Oh, plane of fire long-term. Yeh, I'm going to need a plot key for that, same as the Rogue and Monk and Ranger and Paladin and Barbarian and Warblade and ... well, unless you write the plane of fire such that it doesn't need one, with "hot" rather than "burning" paths people can walk on with good shoes while only suffering minor conditions and the like.
@Tordek: axe, shield, scale, bow, bedroll. Dudes' a Ranger. Barbarian or Cleric wouldn't have a bow (not with an axe too for the Cleric), Dwarf Fighter or Paladin would have heavy armour. Too much metal for Rogue, Bard, or SorWiz. But he's first level there, so it's actually just a Fighter who can't afford plate yet. 
I'd go with it being a property of the world and the monsters rather than the Fighter. That's less likely to offend anyone. Ghosts have to materialise somewhat to attack, smoke-monsters can be torn apart (the same way a vampire is, kinda temporarily but enough to win anyway) by turning your blade "just so" as it passes through them.Midnight_v wrote:@ Tussock: what about verisimilitude? I mean are you giving those guys superpowers or what? I've thought about similar things before and really having the fighter bypass immunities and things of the such might make sense but it is it just "Super powers" or is it the whole "I've seen this type of fire-breathing chicken demon before" thing thats going on there? Just clarify a little.
Like how trolls can only be killed by fire and acid, but if you sword them a whole bunch first it's infinitely easier to do that, because they lie down and let you burn them. Or that DR/junk type stuff that you just Power Attack past.
I shot it, so it can land or it can crash. That can just be a rule. Dragons can have DR or whatever so newbs can't shoot them down, but as a level-appropriate Fighter my bow damage would smash it, and it would land, and I would run over and hit it with my axe.wrote:Tussock, why the fuck should a dragon have to land to fight you?
If that's a set of class features you want (and many here clearly do not) you have to let them work, especially against the eponymous Dragon.
Sure, you can have some things be much harder for Fighters (insubstantial) just as some are for Rogues or Wizards (golems, undead). But not Dragons, and not actually immune anyway.
That's a good point. You can use a pseudo-combat model for things like that, and let people apply their BAB+Cha for intimidation and such. Double damage for a good Bluff.GâtFromKI wrote:You really want to give hit point to investigations or court intrigues ?
But not really, it gets a bit silly, so you just have a mini-game there which neither excludes the Fighter nor expects great genius from them (what with this being Fighter players). If the Baron's supposed to be a Fighter, let him have Diplomacy, with Courtly and Local Knowledge and so on. 8 skill points per level to go with his all good saves.
So I walk to the other side of the planet, eat some gillyweed, borrow a griffon, commandeer a spelljammer (and sail it by the astral sea to anywhere), hire a guide, stand in the street and yell "I'm callin' you out", and rely on my hit point defence (which works fine against stuff that kills mere 1st level commoners in seconds).Quest Locations wrote:
Oh, plane of fire long-term. Yeh, I'm going to need a plot key for that, same as the Rogue and Monk and Ranger and Paladin and Barbarian and Warblade and ... well, unless you write the plane of fire such that it doesn't need one, with "hot" rather than "burning" paths people can walk on with good shoes while only suffering minor conditions and the like.
PC, SJW, anti-fascist, not being a dick, or working on it, he/him.
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OgreBattle
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What about adding some EX abilities to the fighter that is actually more weeboo-like, but explained using pseudo-science.
For example, cutting buildings in half is explained by cutting so precisely and with such force that you create a Newton's Cradle effect that continues to cut the building using the same impulse/force displacing all matter. While in air it will not be as effective (not dense enough to displace matter).
In the water, you displace water with such force, you create a tidal wave or jet-streams. With a large weapon ,you swing hard enough to displace air and blow out a large fire..or an explosion (if you have an interrupt left).
Also weapon users concentrate their power in a point or cutting edge (or just plain mass with a blunt weapon), so you can create stuff "singularity strike" where you concentrate all your strength into a single point to shatter a force cage, etc. (didnt force effects used to have only 1 hp with 30 DR?)
And ofcourse, you can jump like the hulk...your strength is like 30+. You should totally be able to jump toward a flying dragon, grapple it and throw it on the ground in a single round, leaving a crater from the dragon's bodily impact. Then prolly do a drop-kick from the sky as you fall down, using a swift/interrupt action for it.
And no magic is used at all...just applications of super-muscles, force and physics (or pseudo physics).
-Wulf
For example, cutting buildings in half is explained by cutting so precisely and with such force that you create a Newton's Cradle effect that continues to cut the building using the same impulse/force displacing all matter. While in air it will not be as effective (not dense enough to displace matter).
In the water, you displace water with such force, you create a tidal wave or jet-streams. With a large weapon ,you swing hard enough to displace air and blow out a large fire..or an explosion (if you have an interrupt left).
Also weapon users concentrate their power in a point or cutting edge (or just plain mass with a blunt weapon), so you can create stuff "singularity strike" where you concentrate all your strength into a single point to shatter a force cage, etc. (didnt force effects used to have only 1 hp with 30 DR?)
And ofcourse, you can jump like the hulk...your strength is like 30+. You should totally be able to jump toward a flying dragon, grapple it and throw it on the ground in a single round, leaving a crater from the dragon's bodily impact. Then prolly do a drop-kick from the sky as you fall down, using a swift/interrupt action for it.
And no magic is used at all...just applications of super-muscles, force and physics (or pseudo physics).
-Wulf
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DSMatticus
- King
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- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:32 am
Charles Atlas superpowers are still superpowers, which makes them an absolutely fine replacement because they do in fact scale to high-level play. The dude who is so "mundanely strong" that he can carve tunnels through mountains works fine next to the dude who can magically waltz through stone because of some incorporeal shenanigans. It's essentially a caveat about the way your fictional world works, such that realistic human limits are less of a limit and more of a guideline.
Powers that are explicitly "mundane" are subject to DM cockslapping in a way powers that are explicitly magical are not, however, because for some reason people like to port over their real-world expectations into D&D, even though a level 10 fighter's hitpoint totals are comparable to several inches of solid iron. So you do need to directly refute the notion that is valid by pointing out that the "mundane" Charles Atlas fighter is not operating on the same definition of mundane as your DM expects, and (ex) does not mean realistic, it just means functions in an anti-magic field.
Powers that are explicitly "mundane" are subject to DM cockslapping in a way powers that are explicitly magical are not, however, because for some reason people like to port over their real-world expectations into D&D, even though a level 10 fighter's hitpoint totals are comparable to several inches of solid iron. So you do need to directly refute the notion that is valid by pointing out that the "mundane" Charles Atlas fighter is not operating on the same definition of mundane as your DM expects, and (ex) does not mean realistic, it just means functions in an anti-magic field.