Magic RPG - Knight, Rogue, and Scout

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:20 am

I would jump on board the moment a white Rogue name appeared that is both good and not Duelist. I'm not sold on the Archiwhatsit.

I honestly was hoping for more talk of common rogue class features. For instance, how do we want the Stealth minigame to go down? It's necessary that both Rogues and Scouts get access to it, but somewhat obviously Rogues tend to be the best at it. Certainly a bit better than knights. Real questions exist like "should characters even get better as they level up?" What level does a kithkin need to be to sneak past a giant?

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:30 pm

White rogue names
harrier, sentinel, outfitter, courier, marshal, legionnaire, sentry.

They may appear more frequently on other colors, but I don't see any as particularly non-white.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:35 pm

Why would a rogue be better at the stealth minigame than a scout?

Sigil · Post by **Sigil** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:37 pm

sabs wrote:Why would a rogue be better at the stealth minigame than a scout?

It doesn't necessarily have to be that way, but the way they utilize stealth should be unique at least. Perhaps the scout focuses on extreme speed, stealthing then going in for a quick kill, while the rogue focuses on staying hidden even while attacking?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:07 pm

Well, if you have two characters playing a round of Hunt for Red October it's theoretically possible to have one of them be a stealth specialist and the other a perception specialist while still competing on pretty even terms. So I'd recommend that both classes have top tier perception & stealth skills and then differentiate them by giving the rogue sneaky supernatural powers and abilities while the scout gets divinations, battle field control and generally helps the party shoot people from around corners.

angelfromanotherpin · Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:10 pm

The stealth minigame needs to be accessible by everyone. Stealth-related abilities (whether had by Scouts, Rogues, or whoever) should probably be more along the lines of penalty-negators (for moving, for fighting, for lacking concealment, for dealing with exotic senses), so they are clearly better at sneaking, but they stay on the RNG.

zugschef · Post by **zugschef** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:28 pm

Whipstitch wrote:Well, if you have two characters playing a round of Hunt for Red October it's theoretically possible to have one of them be a stealth specialist and the other a perception specialist while still competing on pretty even terms. So I'd recommend that both classes have top tier perception & stealth skills and then differentiate them by giving the rogue sneaky supernatural powers and abilities while the scout gets divinations, battle field control and generally helps the party shoot people from around corners.

That sounds reasonable.

Krusk wrote:White rogue names
harrier, sentinel, outfitter, courier, marshal, legionnaire, sentry.

They may appear more frequently on other colors, but I don't see any as particularly non-white.

I like the Courier and the Sentry, the other names are totally not fitting for a Rogue.

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:08 am

I said "tend to." So Rogues tend to have better Stealth, not always. So maybe the Ranger has better sneaky than Duelist, but the Spy, Assassin, and Vandal(?) are stealthier than the Vanguard, Explorer, and Blackguard, on average. And the Scout probably can still win at the Stealth minigame handily if she spends all her abilities on it. Or not. Maybe?! Speaking of, how do Scouts choose their abilities to use every round? Hm.

I like the idea of notionally inclining the Scout classes towards White Hat and the Rogue classes towards Black Hat, re: sneaking minigames.

Things to sneak by that I can imagine in the Magic universe:

1) Random guard dudes.
2) A wall. No, like, scaling an actual wall.
3) Sauron-like giant flaming eyes.
4) Sleeping dragons.
5) Flying dragons.
6) Hidden dragons.
7) Magical lifesensing wards.
8) Golems.
9) Dogs.
10) Ghosts.

I would dig card references for all of those, but I feel hella sneezy.

zugschef · Post by **zugschef** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:21 am

Scouting on a high level pretty much means divination, so that's where these two classes need to differ. As Whipstitch said, Scouts should be the best at detecting and Rogues the best at staying unnoticed. While everybody can spot stuff and sneak around, only these guys do it with extraordinary and/or supernatural skill and ability. Thus no, the Cleric/Shaman/Wizard doesn't get to CAP Rogue and Scout with his own cloaking and divination magic, respectively. If you want to make sure to not be surprised, you better bring a Scout with you, and if you want to go unnoticed you better bring a Rogue.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:57 pm

What is the goal for having Rogue and Scout be separate classes?

zugschef · Post by **zugschef** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:10 pm

OgreBattle wrote:What is the goal for having Rogue and Scout be separate classes?

The main reason is that Scout and Rogue are classes with a lot of support in Magic, but on top of that Rogues are the light armor and Scouts the medium armor dudes and that's why they are in the core package alongside the knight.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:22 pm

There is also the tricky issue of making them complementary without making them codependent--Having a Scout and Rogue should let you get your Master Decoy & Royal Assassin on, but that doesn't justify them being chumps in other contexts.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:24 pm

Almaz wrote: Things to sneak by that I can imagine in the Magic universe:

1) Random guard dudes.
2) A wall. No, like, scaling an actual wall.
3) Sauron-like giant flaming eyes.
4) Sleeping dragons.
5) Flying dragons.
6) Hidden dragons.
7) Magical lifesensing wards.
8) Golems.
9) Dogs.
10) Ghosts.

I would dig card references for all of those, but I feel hella sneezy.

Every player character needs to be able to play the Stealth minigame out of combat. Whether you're a Warrior or a Spellshaper, it is absolutely essential that you be capable of participating when the mission is "sneak by the arbitrarily large number of enemies in the camp".

Where Rogues and Scouts can come in is the ability to do things reminiscent of that in combat. Spies (Blue Rogues) can turn invisible, allowing them to be stealthy during an actual fight. That's different from what we'd expect out of a Hussar or Oracle.

-Username17

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:26 am

That is a very cogent phrasing of an idea I had been fumbling to grasp at and put together in words ("Rogues are more stealth-using in their things" was as far as my brain got).

Cool.

EDIT: I checked the cards you pulled. Thanks. Also you have my most kind and friendly "fuck you," Frank.

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:52 am

What does 'super perceptive' look like in combat?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:49 am

BearsAreBrown wrote:What does 'super perceptive' look like in combat?

Find Weakness is an action that acts as a defense debuff.
Observe Combat Style is an action that acts as an offense debuff.
Danger Sense is a passive ability that reduces penalties for being attacked by hidden enemies./list]

And so on.

-Username17

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:18 pm

I could see them as having a natural darkvision->blindsense progression as well as the ability to establish line of sight for their allies like a spotter, which would naturally combo well with smokescreen style effects and blasty mage artillery tactics.

Sigil · Post by **Sigil** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:46 pm

Question: When you say that they could get darkvision, blindsense, etc as part of the class do you mean that those features would be handed out for free as part of gaining levels, or that these would be part of their colorless ability choices?

For that matter, are we actually going to have colorless abilities for each class to choose from in addition to their WUBGR ones?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:12 pm

Sigil wrote:Question: When you say that they could get darkvision, blindsense, etc as part of the class do you mean that those features would be handed out for free as part of gaining levels, or that these would be part of their colorless ability choices?

The first place to look for specific Scout abilities would be to cards. To Vampire: the Eternal Struggle cards, because they have a whole suit of "Auspex" cards, and pretty much anything that goes there could go into the RPG as a Scout ability.

You have actions and reactions and passive abilities that allow them to spot danger and weaknesses and point them out to their allies. The big issue then is determining what their Resource system is actually like, because I don't think we nailed that down at all. It has to be a resource system than can accept using a Reactive ability to declare that you spotted the attack and that is why you are dodging out of the way and saying "LOL, No" to the attack in question. So "everything at will" is obviously a non-starter.

For that matter, are we actually going to have colorless abilities for each class to choose from in addition to their WUBGR ones?

Sure. The question is only how important those colorless abilities are. At the very least, every base class has a "colorless skill list" that adds a series of skills to the available choices for a character in the same way that each color has its own skill list as well.

In general, I think the actual Colorless powers should be on the low end. So Every Knight of every color can get an accurate attack where they cough up a couple of colorless mana and get a to-hit boost on their strike this turn. That sort of thing.

-Username17

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:48 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The big issue then is determining what their Resource system is actually like, because I don't think we nailed that down at all.
-Username17

My ideas are all starting to sound like "Scouts are basically White Raven Warblades," but the qualities a ToB style readied mechanic bring to the table does hit me as the most fitting for a class that needs to be good at reacting to danger right from the Surprise Round on down. With their militant theme and medium armor they shouldn't be too fussed about doing normal melee or archery for a round while they reassess the situation anyway.

zugschef · Post by **zugschef** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:28 pm

Whipstitch wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:The big issue then is determining what their Resource system is actually like, because I don't think we nailed that down at all.
-Username17
My ideas are all starting to sound like "Scouts are basically White Raven Warblades," but the qualities a ToB style readied mechanic bring to the table does hit me as the most fitting for a class that needs to be good at reacting to danger right from the Surprise Round on down. With their militant theme and medium armor they shouldn't be too fussed about doing normal melee or archery for a round while they reassess the situation anyway.

Dunno... It's a vancian system and I thought we'd leave that for the Artificer. Maybe with a few tweaks..?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:14 pm

I could see Scouts as either White Raven Warblades or White Raven Crusaders. Crusaders might fit a bit better, because it "makes sense" that what "word of warning" you could give your allies might be somewhat random.

Putting the Scout on a WoF system in which the Tide of Battle determines what options they have each round is something that makes internal sense. If they have the opportunity to stack their deck by taking time out, it mechanically encourages Scouts to scout so that they can ambush people.

-Username17

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:15 am

That also works well with the Scout motifs we find in the game, since lots of Scouts/spies/etc. are useful for working deck-stacking combos. I like it, though how is it different from Wizard again?

Sorry, kind of slow-brained today, if the difference is something that should be obvious.

zugschef · Post by **zugschef** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:12 am

Almaz wrote:That also works well with the Scout motifs we find in the game, since lots of Scouts/spies/etc. are useful for working deck-stacking combos. I like it, though how is it different from Wizard again?

Sorry, kind of slow-brained today, if the difference is something that should be obvious.

One thing is that their respective abilities will be different, but the main difference is probably how their options are refreshed and set. The scout changes his custom set of playable cards before an ambush. The wizard could, for instance, never have and never be able to make a custom set, but gets his playable cards from all the options available to him. In order to guarantee that there is always an option worth using available, the wizard's options could just be divided into categories (e.g. direct attacks, battlefield control, defensive actions) each of which provides independent options.

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:33 pm

Hmmmm. The use of a sideboard and top-decking versus not does seem like a bit of a raw deal for the wizard.

We could give the wizard a "hand size" and force the scout to play off the top of the deck or with a much smaller hand, thus making deck-manipulation more important for the scout whereas the wizard's options don't completely change every round.