The Shadowrun Situation

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:17 pm

Aynone remember why priority system sucked? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:21 pm

That is a little bit dishonest. They are having someone shill out a high priority to be allowed to select any race and then taking the cheap default race anyway. That's a lot like leaving some of your points unspent.

However, it's also manifestly true that the conversion between Build Points and Karma advancement has never been particularly fair. And then the amount of build points the Priority assignments give out is unfair on top of that, so the amount of difference engine bullshit you can pull in character generation was higher in every edition prior to 4th. Bringing back the priority system would be a huge and obvious step backward even if the people they had designing it were good at math. Which, obviously, they are not.

-Username17

Dragon Instincts · Post by **Dragon Instincts** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:42 pm

SR5, page 62:
Watch your back!
Shoot straight!
Conserve ammo!
Never deal with a dragon!

What?
It should be:
And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.

HOW COULD THEY DO THIS WRONG???
It's been that way since SR1!

Yes, it's nitpicking. I know that. But of all the bad things in that book, this just blows my mind.
How could they fuck up the sole signature proverb of Shadowrun?
It's like the president singing his national anthem with wrong lyrics during an offical event.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:08 pm

They had to make it somehow clear how much they don't know or care about the game. Legit move, it seems

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:13 pm

@Dragon Instincts:
i am wondering if i should be an ass and post that to the Errata-Threads . .

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:41 pm

Do it for shits and giggles. Nitpick the hell out of this thing.

Fucks · Post by **Fucks** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:51 pm

I wouldn't say that Bull and the freelancers don't care about the game (hell, some of 'em may even know the setting's backstory and history)... they're just terrible game designers.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:02 pm

I thought the official Shadowrun slogan was 'Geek the mage first'.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:27 pm

"Wakeup and smell the soycaff chummer" is what I think of when I think of Shadowrun lines.

Dragon Instincts · Post by **Dragon Instincts** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:19 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I thought the official Shadowrun slogan was 'Geek the mage first'.

True, that would be the other one.
They got that one right btw.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:55 pm

Bull and friends might care about certain aspects of SR, but they shit on everything else. That makes you not only a bad game designer. Those guys seem to want to make a high magic game in a quasi modern setting, not a cyberpunk game flavored with magic.

I was in the "hell yeah, Ghostwalker stomps over several nations, no problemo" faction and even I got sick of their wankery. Has this edition even Megacorporations doing illegal shit, or is it all magical threats by now?

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:07 pm

Rawbeard wrote:Bull and friends might care about certain aspects of SR, but they shit on everything else. That makes you not only a bad game designer. Those guys seem to want to make a high magic game in a quasi modern setting, not a cyberpunk game flavored with magic.

I was in the "hell yeah, Ghostwalker stomps over several nations, no problemo" faction and even I got sick of their wankery. Has this edition even Megacorporations doing illegal shit, or is it all magical threats by now?

The most evil thing I've heard about the megacorps doing is making the switch to matrix online bonuses for the stuff they produce.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:33 pm

Sounds about right.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:19 pm

Seerow wrote:
Rawbeard wrote:Bull and friends might care about certain aspects of SR, but they shit on everything else. That makes you not only a bad game designer. Those guys seem to want to make a high magic game in a quasi modern setting, not a cyberpunk game flavored with magic.

I was in the "hell yeah, Ghostwalker stomps over several nations, no problemo" faction and even I got sick of their wankery. Has this edition even Megacorporations doing illegal shit, or is it all magical threats by now?
The most evil thing I've heard about the megacorps doing is making the switch to matrix online bonuses for the stuff they produce.

Well, Ares dealing with Insect Spirits, Aztech dealing with the Horrors and Blood-Magic, Renraku made DEUS, Shiawase tried to do something with HMHVV for some time . .

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:31 pm

Stahlseele wrote:
Seerow wrote:
Rawbeard wrote:Bull and friends might care about certain aspects of SR, but they shit on everything else. That makes you not only a bad game designer. Those guys seem to want to make a high magic game in a quasi modern setting, not a cyberpunk game flavored with magic.

I was in the "hell yeah, Ghostwalker stomps over several nations, no problemo" faction and even I got sick of their wankery. Has this edition even Megacorporations doing illegal shit, or is it all magical threats by now?
The most evil thing I've heard about the megacorps doing is making the switch to matrix online bonuses for the stuff they produce.
Well, Ares dealing with Insect Spirits, Aztech dealing with the Horrors and Blood-Magic, Renraku made DEUS, Shiawase tried to do something with HMHVV for some time . .

aka a bunch of magical threats.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:46 pm

DEUS was a computer.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:12 pm

They are having someone shill out a high priority to be allowed to select any race and then taking the cheap default race anyway. That's a lot like leaving some of your points unspent.

Actually, if you are a Race Priority A Human or whatever you get a fuckton of Edge.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:14 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Fuchs wrote:So... the Johnsons pay more for the same job if more runners take part.
Also, the Johnson pays more money if you fall in the dog kennel than if you sensibly avoid it.

Normally, I'm of the opinion that a poor rule beats having no rule at all because at least you have consistency. But in this case they seem to have actually made a rule that is literally worse than just telling game masters to just pull payment numbers out of their ass.

-Username17

I know, it's fucking horrible, it's literally the worst thing about 5E.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:07 pm

Those rules are bad, but I don't think they're quite that bad. The payment is arranged before the run, so the extra money would be if falling into a dog kennel was an expected part of the mission. Although the fact that the stuff is in past tense makes that confusing.

But the part where you go up against 3:1 military opposition, with spirit support, and get paid less than stealing cars is pretty terrible. I think the issue is not scaling enough from easy to difficult runs - the payout for a milkrun is, if anything, high.

Also, the "cold hearted bastard" vs "warm fuzzies" multiplier are way too small. That's only 50% more cash for "stab the orphans" than "save the orphans". Even a sociopath would charge more.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:16 pm

Those rules are bad, but I don't think they're quite that bad. The payment is arranged before the run, so the extra money would be if falling into a dog kennel was an expected part of the mission. Although the fact that the stuff is in past tense makes that confusing.

But one of the bonuses is "Runners accomplished task with impressive speed/subtlety". It's not even saying the Johnson wants it accomplished discretely, it's specifying that if the Runners impress the johnson, the price goes up.

Which means you fall into the kennel, your price goes up.

It really is that bad.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:29 pm

It's definitely phrased as being decided post-run, based on events.

The way that would make sense would be "Facility defended by packs of at least six critters, facility defended by at least three types of spirit"

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:46 pm

Bull has been playing a lot of 4th edition D&D. You now get your gold Nuyen after the mission because D&D. You get bonus gold nuyen for killing stuff because D&D. Hell, you are now on a one-attack-per-round system because D&D.

All the things Shadowrun players used to make fun of D&D players for because they were stupid are being folded back into Shadowrun. Because fuck you.

-Username17

Gobbeldygook · Post by **Gobbeldygook** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:04 pm

They probably just copy/pasted the Missions reward guidelines.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:11 pm

Gobbeldygook wrote:They probably just copy/pasted the Missions reward guidelines.

They definitely did, which is why I'm pretty sure this particular fiasco is Bull's fault.

-Username17

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:04 pm

one of the most idiotic and in my eyes broken things as of yet is the fact that you can get exceptional attribute for both magic and resonance, so the mundanes get shafted again . .
even though it says that magic is limited by essence+initiation and resonance is limited to essence+submersion.
yes, the rule is contradicting itself in less than 5cm . .