D&D 3.x war strategies: Mind Flayers versus Lich King

[Avoraciopoctules]

The fact that people call demons with Planar Binding - more than once - is a good indication that the spell is, in fact, binding. Because demons are dicks, chaotic ones at that, and would totally ignore any kind of "deal" that they "agreed" to, the first time it becomes convenient for them to do so.

That's not to say that they're immune to other mind control, it just follows the normal rules for opposing control effects (either opposed Cha, or opposed CL, IIRC). There are uses of Suggestion that would still fly - "So you're bound to guard the gate ... I think you should look very carefully in the direction of that shrubbery, in case someone is trying to hide in there. And ignore any walking sounds from behind you, they're just a distraction." But it would still be limited to the normal duration and degree of control that Suggestion gives you.

Okay, this sounds pretty reasonable. It keeps Calling and Compulsion effects from having bizarre interactions, and it supports the kind of stories I've seen in various D&D scenarios in the past.

@DSMatticus, sure, that also sounds fairly reasonable. Since creative subversion of instructions is allowed, there may be edge cases, but auto-failing your efforts to follow orders should not be the general rule.

Thanks for helping to clear things up. Demon auxiliaries definitely look like a viable option now. Though the mind flayers do have a shot at subverting them, they don't auto-succeed.

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How would you equip a force of gnolls with 1 barbarian level each if you were going to use them against Mori's legions? Are alchemical grenades or oil flasks a cost-effective way of clearing out massed skeletons?

[DSMatticus]

The supernatural mechanical backing of the Calling spell which specifically states that it compels action overrides a suggestion that someone not do what the spell compels them to do. Because suggestion can only suggest you do something that you can already do, and the demon does not have the ability to choose not to do the compelled action.

This is one of the things that you actually said. I have no idea what your reasoning for this is, but I can't see how it could be anything but stupid. Suggestion's only requirements are that the order not be obviously harmful and that you make it sound reasonable (which is a DM approval clause and does not mean 'possible' or 'are capable of choosing to do on your own'). Suggestion is a compulsion. That means it does not make you want or choose to follow the suggestion - it means it magically rewires your brain such that you follow the suggestion.

You would have a very good argument for how charm monster completely fails to trump planar binding (except by making the demon look for loopholes to help you). But suggestion forces a behavior in the same way planar binding (edit: best case scenario for planar binding, anyway) does, and if the forced behavior is "do what you would do if you were not under a planar binding" that is what you will do, unless you think for some reason that planar binding trumps compulsions (in which case, the actual claim you're making is far more broad than the one you seem to want to make).

If that's what you were getting at, then... seriously, what's your argument? Why do you think I can't just suggest at demons that they not do their task and instead do whatever?

[Kaelik]

and if the forced behavior is "do what you would do if you were not under a planar binding" that is what you will do,

That actually doesn't follow. This is the classic "I Suggest you not be dominated." It is bullshit then, it is bullshit now. That was literally exactly how it was put forward:

"I Suggest that you disregard your summoner's orders and do whatever you like" was the specific suggestion I was referring to. That is not how compulsions work, they do not just erase other spells.

[Vebyast]

How would you equip a force of gnolls with 1 barbarian level each if you were going to use them against Mori's legions? Are alchemical grenades or oil flasks a cost-effective way of clearing out massed skeletons?

Oil flasks could work. If we're assuming normal human skeletons, the 2d6 damage from a direct hit could kill a 1d12-hp skeleton and splash damage from nearby landings would probably finish it off. After the first lost army of skeletons, then, the question becomes "whose army can throw their oil flasks first", at which point the other army dies entirely. Then there's the question of whether a raised tower shield would stop a grenade-like weapon; it provides total cover, which might stop everything, but flasks also damage "every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits" and tower shields specifically don't stop targeted spells. Similarly, a tower shield protects the person holding it, but not the guy behind him, so a good approach would be to hand every guy in the army a really long reach weapon and just let the spearmen duke it out over the heads of the wall.

[Omegonthesane]

Your Charisma check makes them follow the service. The spell just gets them on the negotiating table.

Except for the part of the spell that specifically says that it compels them to perform the service. Seriously though, how do you think the Charisma check that is only part of the spell and doesn't exist outside the spell compels them to perform a service without the spell compelling their service?

A combination of the fact the spell has duration "Instantaneous", my assumption that demons are creatures with motives that understand self-interest rather than Fuck You elementals, and can be convinced to do jobs for rewards on that basis - and a dash of sheer argumentative-ness-induced stupidity.

If it was rendered literally no more capable of acting against the deal than eating the sun, the spell description would spell that out in excruciating detail right down to the bit where it is now immune to other magical compulsions that would contradict it.

So your official position is that When someone casts Dominate Monster or Suggestion, you can just do whatever you want and ignore the spells, because after all, if they were really magically compelling you, you would have specific text stating that you were immune to other compulsions.

So for example, if someone casts Dominate Monster, you just cast Suggestion "Don't be Dominated." and the Domination just magically disappears.

For the duration of the Suggestion, effectively yes - they are compelled to ignore their previous compulsion in a way they could not do on their own, but the effect kicks straight back into gear once the Suggestion wears off. Any longer than that and you've paid me an accidental strawman for an accidental strawman.

my money is still on the person who thinks it is more likely that Planar Binding grants the victim Mind Blank against all effects that would break the deal than that WotC didn't check the dictionary carefully when they used "compel" rather than, say, "convince".

Strawmen are so much fun.

That awsn't a strawman, it was a misunderstanding - I thought that was your actual position, based on the fact that you thought Suggestion spam was utterly incapable of subverting bound demons not based on it having too short a duration or range or being too easy to save against but on the basis that Planar Binding is a compulsion.

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong in that argument.

[Kaelik]

based on the fact that you thought Suggestion spam was utterly incapable of subverting bound demons

I specifically gave an example of it subverting demons. What is incapable of subverting the demon is the suggestion to not be compelled, because that is bullshit that doesn't work.

[K]

The Fear Aura only goes out to 60 feet. It makes him auto-win any fight that happens indoors, but won't have much effect on a battlefield. The Illithid mind blast is pretty similar. Terrifying in a walled environment, but not actually that useful in any situation where you are concerned what the range increment of a projectile might be.

The range is a problem when you're dealing with flying murder hobos, but armies are far less mobile and therefore far more vulnerable. Also, fear is a long-term effect - everybody that fails their save drops their weapons and spends 12 rounds running away. In other words, your army gets 12 free rounds to kill them, and even after that they've been mostly disarmed. Combine that with an army of skeletons so your own army isn't doing the same thing, and your recipe for victory is to slowly walk down the lines 15 feet back.

The problem is that the fear aura is very short range.

For comparison' sake, look at the stats for siege weapons in Heroes of Battle. A trebuchet has a max range of 1500 feet, does 17d6 to a square, and doesn't check anyone's personal AC in that square.

The instant a Lich pops his head up, the enemy targets that square with ten of them and the Lich explodes into a haze of bone dust.

Also remember that the Lich we are talking about is a Dread Necromancer, a class better suited to a villain from childrens' cartoons because of their profound lack of depth. This means that you can honestly Scooby Do a Dread Necromancer with a pit trap or a locked room because he doesn't have blasting powers or flight or shapechanging or anything else that lets him solve problems as complicated as "locked door" or "muddy pit that I don't have the Climb skill to climb."

So the ideal tactic to fight a Dread Lich Necromancer is to dig some holes in a field and lead him into one of them. Then you can arc in some flaming trash into the hole to avoid LoS of Enervations and shit and let him die slowly from fire damage. (If he's got a Ring of Fire Resistance, switch to holy water.)

[Winnah]

The fear aura effects anyone within 60 feet. Not at the start of their turn, just when the target is within 60 feet and can see the lich.

So if the Lich King does a low flyover on his zombie zmey or a summoned nightmare, that 60 foot radius circle becomes a 125 foot wide rectangle of terror.

It's not an unstoppable tactic, it's simply a consequence of the lich being present and taking no actions other than movement.

[Omegonthesane]

based on the fact that you thought Suggestion spam was utterly incapable of subverting bound demons

I specifically gave an example of it subverting demons. What is incapable of subverting the demon is the suggestion to not be compelled, because that is bullshit that doesn't work.

Did you really? I can't find it. Link to post please.

[Grek]

RE: Planar Binding vs. Suggestion:

The relevant text is as follows:

Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

So, according to RAW, the demon will try to obey any successful suggestion that doesn't break the letter of its orders. If the suggestion attempts to force the demon to break the letter of its orders, two casters make opposed Charisma checks to see who it listens to.

[DSMatticus]

That actually doesn't follow. This is the classic "I Suggest you not be dominated." It is bullshit then, it is bullshit now. That was literally exactly how it was put forward:

Okay. I get that that is what you are saying, but what I am asking is why the fuck are you saying that? The SRD specifically covers the situation that the target is under the effect of two conflicting mental control effects, and it looks nothing like what you are describing. On the matter of suggestion v dominate, that you are wrong is immediately obvious, because as far as sources go the SRD trumps your asshole.

Now, planar binding is a more confusing case, because planar binding does not have a mind-influencing tag or anything of that sort. You can use the same section to cover it because it's the best available, but it's not clear that that's the correct section and, if not, then the interaction between them is undefined. But generally, if codified mechanics and natural English instructions conflict, I would whenever possible give priority to the mechanics. So opposed charisma checks is a reasonable response (more reasonable than I previously thought - I thought the section on conflict explicitly referred only to mind-affecting effects, but it uses the term 'mental control'). Mind-affecting effects have priority over planar binding is a a reasonable response. Planar binding makes you immune to a compulsion to not do the assigned task isn't something I can get from any text I can find or any sensible assumptions.

Why do you think that?

[Winnah]

I just noticed Summon Undead can be used to summon Allip and Mummies.

Mummies inflict paralysis for a few rounds, with a range of Line of Sight. Summon one while doing a flyover, then boot it off your Nightmare and drop it into the middle of an enemy formation for lulz.

The Hypnotism aura of the Allip is good in theory, but is useless once people start getting attacked. The duration on the summoning is too short for anything special, but the effect is noteworthy enough that they might see use in the first couple of rounds of an ambush or something.

A DN can cast Death Knell to gain a +1 CL boost for 10 minutes per hit die. A DN Lich has Craft Wondrous Item for the prerequisite of becoming a Lich and can forge an Orange Ioun Stone for another +1 CL. With another +1 CL from somewhere, the Lich King should be capable of using Create Undead on his servants to give them the Mummy Template, should they fall in battle. He could possible do the same to enemy lieutenants if they are captured or killed, but that would require some way to secure their loyalty post transformation.

[Kaelik]

Did you really? I can't find it. Link to post please.

You know what, I thought I gave a more explicit example, but instead, I said it in general terms:

You can tell the Demon to do all sorts of things with a suggestion, but when the duration ends, he is still compelled to perform his service.

Planar binding makes you immune to a compulsion to not do the assigned task isn't something I can get from any text I can find or any sensible assumptions.

Why do you think that?

Because I don't you fucking shitbag, learn to read.

[Omegonthesane]

In which case I think all concerned have spent a couple of pages loudly and venomously agreeing that Suggestion can completely override a Planar Binding pact for the duration of its effect and not a femtosecond longer.

To clarify:
Steve the Crap-Covered Mind Flayer uses suggestion on Dave the Demon, who has already made a pact with the Lich-King under planar binding. The planar binding compulsion loses the Charisma check and thus the Suggestion takes precedence for its duration only. Steve then commands "Ignore your pact and do as you would do without it!" Which of the following happens?
a) Dave is compelled by Suggestion to act in a manner consistent with his normal, non-compelled behaviour, up until the Suggestion runs out at which point he is compelled to complete his side of the pact
b) Dave is unaffected, because he cannot be compelled to violate the pact
c) something completely different because Omegon's knowledge of D&D is limited

[Username17]

In which case I think all concerned have spent a couple of pages loudly and venomously agreeing that Suggestion can completely override a Planar Binding pact for the duration of its effect and not a femtosecond longer.

No. The Suggestion can render the Planar Binding irrelevant, but it cannot over ride it. Planar Binding isn't a mental control and there is nothing that Suggestion can sink any kinds of hooks into. It can, however, convince the Demon that the best way to follow the orders it currently has is to do something tangential and useless. You can't actually Suggest that the Demon actually stop being compelled.

Practically, it's not much different to just mind blasting the Demon.

-Username17

[Omegonthesane]

In which case I think all concerned have spent a couple of pages loudly and venomously agreeing that Suggestion can completely override a Planar Binding pact for the duration of its effect and not a femtosecond longer.

No. The Suggestion can render the Planar Binding irrelevant, but it cannot over ride it. Planar Binding isn't a mental control and there is nothing that Suggestion can sink any kinds of hooks into. It can, however, convince the Demon that the best way to follow the orders it currently has is to do something tangential and useless. You can't actually Suggest that the Demon actually stop being compelled.

Practically, it's not much different to just mind blasting the Demon.

-Username17

Could you not Suggestion the demon that the best way to fulfil its orders is something that "on the surface" is actually contrary to the mission, but which secretly for reasons the demon will soon understand (read: bullshit) is actually going to help complete it?

[Whipstitch]

holy goalpost shifting batman

[DSMatticus]

You obviously do not think suggestions like avoracio's work. Here is a fuckoff huge pile of quotes in a spoiler block.

Planar binding makes you immune to a compulsion to not do the assigned task isn't something I can get from any text I can find or any sensible assumptions.

Why do you think that?

Because I don't you fucking shitbag, learn to read.

That gives me serious concern over what happens when a mind flayer can use "I Suggest that you disregard your summoner's orders and do whatever you like" at will.

What happens is the same thing as when the suggest that you make your save on the next no save Dominate effect used on you. Fucking nothing.

What I did say is that the suggestion "stop being compelled" would not work

"I Suggest that you disregard your summoner's orders and do whatever you like" was the specific suggestion I was referring to. That is not how compulsions work, they do not just erase other spells

I have asked you to explain your reasoning in every response I've made to you. Here's another spoiler block of me asking you to do that.

If that's what you were getting at, then... seriously, what's your argument? Why do you think I can't just suggest at demons that they not do their task and instead do whatever?

Okay. I get that that is what you are saying, but what I am asking is why the fuck are you saying that?

Why do you think that?

You have not answered those questons. Once. Since you are adamantly refusing to defend your position, I have ended up trying to guess what your reasoning is myself and refute it, and your response every time is "nope, not that one, also lol strawman lrn2read."

Okay. I get it. I have been thoroughly trolled. I've been here doing both sides of the argument while you kick back and shout "NEXT" and hurl insults. But I'm going to stop being stupid and insist that you defend your own position for a change. You clearly do not think avoracio's suggestion would work. You clearly do not think suggestions to "behave as though you were not compelled" or "do whatever it is you want to do" do not work. Explain, citing rules text.

[Seerow]

Good job Den, you managed to derail a fun to read topic with a completely ridiculous tangent.

[Ice9]

Also remember that the Lich we are talking about is a Dread Necromancer, a class better suited to a villain from childrens' cartoons because of their profound lack of depth. This means that you can honestly Scooby Do a Dread Necromancer with a pit trap or a locked room because he doesn't have blasting powers or flight or shapechanging or anything else that lets him solve problems as complicated as "locked door" or "muddy pit that I don't have the Climb skill to climb."

They're not quite as bad as that - any DN can at least Summon Undead to get a zombie wyvern, and fly out of a pit. They could also smash their way out of any room that wasn't actually indestructable by the same means.

But they are pretty limited (except for wands / scrolls) and siege weaponry is a big enough threat I don't expect to see the Lich personally entering the battlefield.

[Whipstitch]

I really don't get what's so confusing about Kaelik's position, DSM. Even if you treat "compelled" as merely operating under duress rather than crazy magical mind control, demons still add paying lip service to the conditions of their planar binding agreement to the list of directives they operate under because they just want to go home and fulfilling their deal meets that goal. So traditional Den exaggerated examples like the ones that have been sent Kaelik's way all hit me as frankly kind of stupid because the suggestion spell's whole shtick is taking advantage of grey areas and ambiguities.

[Kaelik]

I have asked you to explain your reasoning in every response I've made to you.

. . .

You have not answered those questons. Once.

Your are correct. You have asked me to explain the reason why I think something I don't think several times. And every single time instead of answer that question, I have refused to answer the question and instead pointed out that I don't believe that.

Reread what you quoted of me. Exactly what part of that do you think means "Immune to Suggestion" instead of what I have repeatedly stated several times, that suggestions cannot erase the other effect, and can only temporarily distract from it.

You clearly do not think avoracio's suggestion would work. You clearly do not think suggestions to "behave as though you were not compelled" or "do whatever it is you want to do" do not work. Explain, citing rules text.

It is arguably the case that "behave as though you were not compelled" or "do whatever it is you want to do" would not work. But I don't care and have never argued that, because for example, the Demon might want to complete the task, and the spell might be effectively mindraping them for that purpose. But I don't really care, because for damn sure, you can Suggest that the Demon do nothing at all for the duration.

What I have consistently said can definitely not happen is for the suggestion to erase the Planar Binding. IE, You cannot tell someone to make their next save against Dominate, or to stop being compelled. If you are so stupid that you cannot see the difference between "behave as if you are not compelled" vs "stop being compelled" then you are an idiot.

[Winnah]

Siege engines are useless against mobile targets unless you can predict where they are going to be.

You aim first, then load, then fire, according to heroes of battle. The only exceptions are ballistae, but they are treated as standard (albeit larger) missile attacks.

The fact that 'effective' Lich counters on the battlefield have been limited to outfitting several companies of specialised soldiers with wands of magic missile, or massive bombardment via heavy siege engines, speaks volumes about the power disparity in this scenario. Even if the enemy force just happens to have things work out in their favour, the only thing that has been achieved is the Lich gets sent home to recorporealise for a week or so, while the Lich King's army takes advantage of the massive distraction and cleans house against an enemy force that is largely dedicated to dealing with a single unit.

[DSMatticus]

It is arguably the case that "behave as though you were not compelled" or "do whatever it is you want to do" would not work. But I don't care and have never argued that

That gives me serious concern over what happens when a mind flayer can use "I Suggest that you disregard your summoner's orders and do whatever you like" at will. If the outsiders voluntarily fail their saves, that could pave the way for serious trouble.

What happens is the same thing as when the suggest that you make your save on the next no save Dominate effect used on you. Fucking nothing.

Here is your first post on the topic of suggestion v. planar binding. You claim exactly that suggestions to "do whatever it is you want to do" would do "fucking nothing." Is your definition of "fucking nothing" that it functions exactly as described for the effect's duration, and has no effect afterwards? Because that is not "fucking nothing." That is exactly what suggestion does when it is working normally. That is what people would expect out of a completely 100% successful suggestion.

And no, the point is not moot. If failing saving throws against subsequent suggestions made during the duration of the first suggestion is consistent with the compulsions of the first suggestion, then they might very well willingly (so to speak) do so and you can maintain the suggestion indefinitely (and to anyone with greater teleport this isn't even an impediment). Though, even without that the duration is measured in hours and any time-sensitive or short-term goals can be made to fail outright.

What I have consistently said can definitely not happen is for the suggestion to erase the Planar Binding. IE, You cannot tell someone to make their next save against Dominate, or to stop being compelled. If you are so stupid that you cannot see the difference between "behave as if you are not compelled" vs "stop being compelled" then you are an idiot.

The supernatural mechanical backing of the Calling spell which specifically states that it compels action overrides a suggestion that someone not do what the spell compels them to do.

And here is your second post on the topic of suggestion v. planar binding. The bolded portion is rather important, because if you'll notice it looks a whole lot like the former ("not do the thing planar binding compels you to do") and nothing like the latter ("not be compelled to do the thing planar binding compels you to do").

And yes, I can tell the difference. The former is a better representation of avoracio's original statement, which you argued with. The second is a phrasing you introduced after a page of arguing, and has no bearing on avoracio's statement (or any of omegon's, really). I noticed the change and assumed it was an honest mistake and you were paraphrasing without intending to change the substance. I was hilariously wrong. Lesson learned: you are not at all interested in arguing in good faith and if I see something that looks like you setting up new goalposts, that is probably what you are doing.

[Slade]

Since no one mention the type of Lich King (caster, Martial, gish) I'm going to assume Ranger with Practiced Spellcaster version (Ranger 14 + 4 from Practiced Spellcaster = Caster 11 so qualifies).