New Edition: Wiki

[Orion]

I like burned/scarred wings, or wing-shaped birthmarks on their backs.

Or, feathery arms that the wings evolved out of.

If we must have nonfunctional wings, though, make them big and powerful enough to strike or block with.

[Crissa]

I prefer the ground-chicken look. Scary.

-Crissa

[the_taken]

1202693261[/unixtime]]If we must have nonfunctional wings, though, make them big and powerful enough to strike or block with.

Maybe that's the reason they're nonfunctional. They went from flight to fight in a few short generations for some silly reason, but now they're stuck cause they can't fly back up the evolutionary path they just came down?

[Aycarus]

1202696794[/unixtime]]Maybe that's the reason they're nonfunctional. They went from flight to fight in a few short generations for some silly reason, but now they're stuck cause they can't fly back up the evolutionary path they just came down?

Throwing Darwinian justifications into a fantasy setting always catches me as a bit weird.

[Orion]

I notice we've been mostly sticking to Magic basic lands. is this intentional? and, if so, why do the plains-dwellers all have wings?

Maybe (order, community) should go with mountains and (discovery, artifice) should go with plains?

[Username17]

1202688252[/unixtime]]So Frank, do you want 10 levels with numbers, or just abilities and descriptions?

The numbers are something which is presently in flux. Right now I think I just want descriptions. You're a 5tth level Malefactor, what passive defenses should you have? What attack powers should you be drawing upon? And so on...

-Username17

[Cielingcat]

So what do you think gaining a level should mean? What sort of thing should you get from gaining a level?

[Username17]

1202709309[/unixtime]]So what do you think gaining a level should mean? What sort of thing should you get from gaining a level?

Numeric increases to attack, damage, armor classes, DR, and Wounds.

Abilities.

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Now caste design can literally be as complicated as we want. We can give abilities prerequisites, we can make them cost variable numbers of points, level limits, whatever. The thing is that the first castes aren't designed according to any system, the system is designed to make the desired castes possible.

So it's literally back to the question of what you want your character to be doing during a battle and when faced with a challenge of some kind at some arbitrary level.

-Username17

[Cielingcat]

The question I have is about how much should each level give you? Should you have one ability? One of each type of ability? More than that? Basically, in options, how should a level 1 Malefactor differ from a level 2 Malefactor?

[JonSetanta]

Or rather, by what factor should a Level 2 be more powerful than a Level 1?

[Cielingcat]

That's important for numbers, but for abilities you need to know how options differ level by level.

[Username17]

1202715367[/unixtime]]The question I have is about how much should each level give you? Should you have one ability? One of each type of ability? More than that? Basically, in options, how should a level 1 Malefactor differ from a level 2 Malefactor?

That is, ironically, exactly what I'm asking. The more options you hand out each level, the steeper the learning curve for the next level. The less options you hand out, the less of an achievement the next level feels like. It's problematic either way, but hopefully there is a happy medium.

I would say categorically that Druids get too many options every level (and especially every other level). Playing one is a logistical nightmare of Monster Manual dumpster diving and spell sifting. I would also say categorically that Barbarians don't gain enough options. Most levels they just increment their numbers slightly and if you didn't see the character sheet you wouldn't even know they were higher level when they described their actions.

Would you consider Wizards to be a good middle ground? They pick up two or 3 new tricks every level. That's a compromise that I can live with, but I could easily see the argument for getting one more or less than that, especially if they came in radically different categories like defenses, movement abilities, and combat boosts.

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The other question is how many abilities should be resource managed and how many should just happen. That's not really a game balance question but a player enjoyment question. Saving a death blast for later because there's a more important fight coming up is fun, but going to sleep because you've already used up your death blast is not.

Here are some decent resource limitations:

• Slots - You can be in one combat stance, you can have one pair of boots, etc. If you have multiple choices and limited slots to prepare your choices in, you introduce finite and potentially interesting character choice.
  
  
• Charge-up Times - You have to get three little glowing things before you can perform your phoenix punch that makes things explode in fire. Your opponent already has to be weakened before they can be forced to say "Refresh." (And boy is that an obscure reference). If an ability can't be used effectively at the beginning of combat but can be used to great effect later on, it mixes things up.
  
  
• Per Encounter Limitations - Once you fire your gun, you aren't reloading it during the melee. A big trick that can only be used once per combat will be used at the beginning of combat in almost all cases. That makes longer fights feel fatiguing.
  
  
• Per Adventure Limitations - You can only summon the Valkyries once. It gives things a climactic feel.
  
  
• Per Day Limitations The Five Minute Workday of D&D is a real problem, so we tend to forget that these limits make real sense on quest abilities. A limit on the number of times you can teleport or the duration of the day you can spend invisible has real meaning.

-Username17

[virgil]

Did you want a limitation on limitations? As in, would having more than two of the sample resource limitations in the game itself be cumbersome? I know D&D has Per Day, Slots, Per Encounter (mixed with Per Day, such as Barbarian rage), I see Charge-up Times once in awhile just in fighting style (buff, then attack), and potentially Per Adventure with consumable items alot of the time.

Depending on the setup, do we want to mix up the resource limitations per class? The Malefactor could actually be a class that 'specializes' in per encounter abilities. Another class could specialize in per adventure abilities, etc. Both could have the Slots limitation working at the same time, because I suspect there would be a bloat otherwise.

Now personally, I'm all for one or two tricks per level, assuming abilities scale with level and don't become obsolete like level 1 spells in a level 11 party.

I myself enjoy slots, but other players can suffer with them (such as the binder on a bad day). Charge-up times would be cool, so long as the actions leading up to the charging still contributed, as a multi-round aim with a bow negated by Deflect Arrows or the target dying just before you shoot is frustrating to say the least. I'm familiar with Per Day Limitations, like an old coat, but obviously it should only apply to quest abilities (as you stated).

I wouldn't actually like to see Per Adventure abilities, unless it's something ALL classes get at the same level and at the same rate, and does not contribute significantly to their combat capability. It suffers even moreso than Per Encounter, and I know way too many players who consider a resource on that level of a limitation as an indication that they shouldn't ever actually use it out of fear of wasting it (no matter the encounter). And an ability not used is an ability that doesn't exist.

[Username17]

I could see limitations getting mixed and matched. Conceptually I could see gadgeteers "burning out" in longer engagements while Champions "ramped up" over the same period.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

When it comes to number of abilities/level I'm in favor of baseline 2, because as abilities level up, some of them just get bigger numbers, but some of them actually add new things it does as part of still doing their job, so some levels you will actually have 3 or 4 new things to get used to. I pick 2, so each level you get a new combat schtick and a new noncombat schtick, and if you're following one of the preset caste paths you have as few choices as possible to make.

When it comes to limitations:
• I really like Slots.
• I think we've established that charge-up times are good in the 'feels like epic' thread, and for bringing fights to a climax.
• Per Encounter might be better resolved as a Cooldown or Recharge, so that the 'encounter' isn't a mystical time period of varying length.
• I'm down with per Adventure, again, if the flavor is it's the sort of thing where the 'adventure' isn't an actual time period, but you actually have to spend like a week (or a month, etc.) solid building cred with the Valkyries between summons, so it's extremely to completely impractical to recharge it within an adventure. On the other hand, maybe these are the sorts of things that need to be included in adventures as acquirable resources. Aragorn has to go to Dunharrow to get his dead army. I forget what Elric had to do to summon the rain of Stormbringer clones.
• I'm less down with per Day abilities, oddly. No particular reason I can elucidate, though.

[JonSetanta]

Yep, absolutely no per adventure or per level.

And I want universal slots for all characters. Access to abilities and frequency of use would be determined by the ability.

[Crissa]

If we have slots, we should choose whether something is swappable or not. Maybe slots-per-day so you can only have benefited from $slots items in a day, and it refreshes when you do.

-Crissa

[Draco_Argentum]

1202735824[/unixtime]]I could see limitations getting mixed and matched. Conceptually I could see gadgeteers "burning out" in longer engagements while Champions "ramped up" over the same period.

-Username17

Thats one to be careful of as it divides the party. D&D's thing with the party stopping because the wizard is out of spells being the worst example.

As far as number goes I like one or two. Since these aren't going obsolete level ten characters will have 10-20 abilities to consider for usage. The design direction is tending away from simple always on numerical bonuses so theres a lot to decide each round. Anything more than this will get pretty unweildly at higher levels.

[Crissa]

That allows us to have more esoteric abilities, because one's ability budget is so mich greater.

Think of how many feats you wouldn't take - but are fine abilities or maneuvers on their own - because you can only have a handful in a game?

I say more the merrier. Racial, Societal, Class, should all hand out options to take; plus you should have room for crossing boundaries. You shouldn't have to spend your one feat to keep up, or to be of your race or town. It should come handily. Two of the same class shouldn't necessarily be the same.

Or should they?

-Crissa

[SphereOfFeetMan]

I have no idea if I’m going in a direction people want to go with this, but I guess I’ll get the ball rolling…

I chose limitations that are mostly slot choice and have a charge-up time. The charge up times increase with level, as we want higher level fights to take longer. Individually his abilities are not super impressive at the start of combat, but he becomes more and more difficult to remove as the battle continues. I also stopped at 2 abilities a level, if people want to go to 3 or 4 abilities per level that are based around per-adventure abilities, battlefield control, or vampiric abilities, I think that would be great.


Malefactor:

The Malefactor’s abilities focus on two things: corrupting his opponents body, and absorbing their power through an unholy bond. They have two signature abilities: Body Puppetry and Corrupted Extraction. Body Puppetry abilities are a swift or immediate action usable 1/round. Corrupted Extraction abilities are free actions.

Level
1 Sinew puppetry, Corrupted Extraction
2 Ear puppetry,
3 Eye puppetry
4 Skin Puppetry
5 Genital Puppetry
6 Lung Puppetry
7 Bone Puppetry
8 Blood Puppetry
9 Viscera Puppetry
10 Brain Puppetry

Puppetry: (swift and immediate actions) Can use one Puppetry effect every round.
1 Sinew puppetry: You cause your enemy’s tendons to spasm, causing them to miss striking you. (1/round opponent rerolls die to hit you in melee, takes second roll if worse.)
2 Ear puppetry: You cause your enemy to hear something horrid, causing them to become depressed (Wis save or ???(-2 to all rolls?) for the rest of the encounter)
3 Eye puppetry: You cause your enemy to see something horrid, causing them to blink their eyes constantly to get rid of the awful vision. (cha save or treat all creatures as having 20% miss chance for rest of encounter)
4 Skin Puppetry: You cause your enemy’s skin to slough off. (Con save or opponent takes one wound and stunned for one round)
5 Genital Puppetry: You cause your enemy’s junk to shrivel and fall off/out. (Wis save or insane for 3 rounds, afterwards enemy is considered to be enraged (barbarian rage knockoff))

6 Lung Puppetry: You cause your enemy’s lungs to restrict and function inefficiently (Con save or be slowed for rest of encounter)
7 Bone Puppetry: You cause all your enemy’s bones to fracture and split in two. Then half of the bones burrow out of their body and form a fractured skeleton that attacks them. (Str save or take a wound point, and a skeleton (level appropriate) is adjacent to them and attacking them)
8 Blood Puppetry: You cause your enemy’s blood to boil out of them. (Con save or take one wound and area around them is greased, invisible enemies are made visible, area dependant upon targets size)
9 Viscera Puppetry: You cause your enemy’s entrails to burrow out of their torso. (Con save or take a wound and become Panicked for 3 rounds)
10 Brain Puppetry: You cause your enemy’s Mind to see things as you do. (Int save or take a wound and become Dominated for 3 rounds)



Corrupted Extraction: Using your enemies as puppets not only decreases their ability to fight you, it also powers your profane abilities. By successfully using one or more puppetries on your enemies you gain temporary combat abilities according to the following list. Most Corrupted Extraction abilities also have a level requirement. Particular puppetries are not needed to power particular Corrupted Extraction abilities (though they are tied by an unholy pact).

Level requirement (number of successful Puppetry attacks required to activate ability, puppetries used to activate these abilities are disregarded for purposes of powering further attempts.)
1 (1) Your reflexes become supernaturally quick, you can reroll any one die that involves physical action.
2 (1) Your ears become accurate at pinpointing noises. If an opponent is known to you and not visible within 30 feet, you can pinpoint which square they are in.
3 (1) For the encounter you can see without worry of being repulsed by what you see. For the encounter you are immune to gaze attacks, and you get a second roll to disbelieve illusions you interact with.
4 (1) Your skin toughens. Adds 1 effective wound level to destroy the unholy skin. (usable # of time per encounter equal to ??? 1 per 5 levels?)
5 (2) Your junk becomes awesome. For the next three rounds creatures of your favored sex must make a cha save in order to attack you.

6 (2) Your lungs become supernaturally efficient. For the encounter you are immune to gaseous poisons, you are immune to fatigue effects, and your movement increases by 10 feet.
7 (2) Your bones harden to the likes of rock and metal. For the encounter you are immune to crippling and slowed effects, and gain DR (or an increased DR) equal to ???.
8 (2) Your blood pumps faster, congeals instantly, and heals beyond the scope of most creatures. For the encounter you are immune to poisons. You also gain fast healing 10 for a number of rounds equal to your level/2. Multiple uses extend the duration (if a second use is activated before the first runs out)
9 (2) Your guts roil for no man. For the encounter you are immune to fear, and you cannot be bull rushed or moved magically.
10 (3) Your mind is your own and none can influence your grim nature. For the encounter you are immune to mind-affecting effects, and you can see through all illusions. Additionally, for the rest of the encounter you are never surprised or flat-footed (or their equivalent).


Consider this a rough draft, certain things could be moved around, powered up/down. So what’s the verdict?

[Draco_Argentum]

We're talking class here so I ignored other ability sources.

Feats aren't a fair comparison, the idea here is to be disciplined about what gets created and then not make more every time we need to sell books. So ability bloat shouldn't be a problem.

[Username17]

Each race can actually be a fairly small list of abilities spread over all the levels. And I would like to avoid regional abilities and selectable feats and such as much as possible. A caste, once designed, should be very quick to produce characters out of at any level.

How about the idea of giving out a battle maneuver and something else every level? So you might get Youth Siphon and a new stance, or Bone Crusher and a passive defense, or Doom Tide and some ablative longdead each adventure.

-Username17

[Cielingcat]

I like that idea.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Here's my swing at the Malefactor.

Malefactor Level One: Nelson Muntz
At this level, the character is basically a school bully. They can punch Bart really hard and all the other kids are scared of them.
• Combat Ability: Staggering Blow
• Other Ability: Intimidate

Malefactor Level Two: Black Squire
The character is apprenticed to a higher-level Malefactor, drills with a spear or other long weapon, and has to work in the stables being mean to animals until they behave.
• Combat Ability: Reach Weapon Specialization
• Other Ability: Animal Conditioning

Malefactor Level Three: Faceless Guard
The character gets a job guarding something moderately important and malignant. They get cool armor with a big helmet that conveniently covers their face, and learn to be alert for things people would prefer not be noticed.
• Combat Ability: Armored Face
• Other Ability: Sense Sin

Malefactor Level Four: Persian Immortal
The character is promoted to marching across Asia and fighting Spartans. Lesser warriors hesitate in terror before them, and no barrier can stay their advance.
Combat Ability: Radiance of Despair
Other Ability: Inexorable March

Malefactor Level Five: Chaos Knight
The character is gifted by his Lord with an awesome black warhorse and uses it to kill people. They also get to be called Sir, to mete out low justice, to have a squire, to sleep with peasant's wives, and to wear enormous shoulder guards as a symbol of this new authority.
Combat Ability: Mounted Combat
Other Ability: Shoulders of Rank

So, that's the baseline. Nothing too fancy or weird yet, since these have to make up large armies later on. It is now late; I will be in the morning do the next five levels, where the weird stuff begins.

[Username17]

I would like to step away from abilities like "Can use Special Item X" and go more towards abilities that might be more useful with one weapon or another.

So don't hand out "Reach Fighting" or "Mounted Combat" as abilities, because maybe your character wants to fight on foot with a falchion and a shield.

I think that characters should start off with some stance choices and a defense at level 1, so first level should be a bit thick. Keeping in mine the ideas thrown out so far, this is what the Malefactor is shaping up like.

-Username17